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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 09:47:28
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There are many examples in the Forgotten Realms of people being deceived into following an evil person or fiend by having them claim that they’re acting under the command of a respectable divinity. In some cases, this makes perfect sense, like when Shar impersonated Ibrandul: Ibrandul being dead, he’s not going to contradict her, and Shar answering prayers addressed to him, nobody would be able to tell something was amiss, apart from the sudden change in the goals of the cult. Same thing when a cult is invented whole cloth: it’s entirely possible for an outsider to amass followers without drawing anyone’s attention. And an actual cult could be hijacked to achieve goals that don’t immediately appear to go against the cult’s values (typically, mindflayers could nudge several cults to attack their rivals in the goal of weakening the whole community, and their respective divinities wouldn’t necessarily notice anything wrong to this). But what about cases where a cult pretends to act on the behalf of a real god who is far more powerful than them?
Typically, in the original campaign for Neverwinter Nights, Desther and his men kill a church of Helmites, take their place, and use their influence to spread a plague, even using fake blessings to do so. A god might not necessarily be aware when his name is used, but they keep doing this and pushing people to ask Helm for their salvation. I’m not saying that a god definitely would smite anyone pretending to act on his behalf, as long as the cult isn’t doing anything out of line (which they’re certainly doing here). But it’s hard to believe Helm wouldn’t pay close attention to them at the very least. And if people start to believe that Helm will save them, wouldn’t they pray to him to ask why the blessings his priests are giving aren’t doing anything?
Sure the closest church of Helm has been destroyed, so those priests can’t come and confront the cult to declare them as false. But I think such blatant use of the god’s name would justify a good old-fashioned smiting, rather than acting in mysterious way by waiting for the main character to arrive and solve the problems because the plot says so.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 10:26:44
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I think this is the result of an interpretation of the gods as presented by TSR and WotC that didn't match Ed's original vision and just doesnt work in my opinion.
If gods go around smiling people for their actions then no heresies can ever exist and nobody can ever deceive the worshipper of another because the gods will always know about it and will always interfere.
There are many examples of cults and heresies that exist in spite of gods that should (according to the current God models peddled by WotC and TSR) arrive in person and turn the corrupters into a red jelly. But they dont.
Therefore either the model is wrong, or you have to go down the route of "gods work in mysterious ways" and are allowing that cult or heresy to test its faithful which is frankly ridiculous in my mind.
The alternative model is that gods are not all knowing, they are not all powerful, they are just a lot more powerful than mortals.
A god cannot focus on everything, everywhere all at once. I would suggest it can focus on as many things as it can create a number of avatars 2-3 for lesser, 4-5 for intermediate, 6-10 for greater.
A gods attention is drawn when its name is invoked but if it has a lot going on then it may ignore that invocation of its name.
Gods cannot interact with the material plane directly, they have to be called upon by their faithful and in return they send magic, divine servants, manifestations or in the most extreme cases an avatar.
Gods do not communicate directly with mortals (watch Dogma the film to see what happens when you hear a gods voice). Instead all communication is via visions, but because gods are multi physic, multi dimensional beings the visions are a bit of a jumble.
Do all of the above and it explains why good or evil is allowed to exist, how heretics and fanatics survive, and why Toril isnt a blasted wasteland as the gods enact Mutual Assured Destruction against I e another each day. It also allows for religious fallibility (plenty of examples of churches gone bad) and why they need adventurers.
Just my two cents |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 06:56:52
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Con-men and middle-men will install themselves into prosperity anywhere they can find suckers to exploit.
If they (or their suckers) happen to have religious fervour and righteous conviction then it's even easier. Especially in a world where you can barely hurl a halfling without hitting somebody's god. |
[/Ayrik] |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 15:20:20
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In the 3e adventure Tearing of the Weave, followers of Shar set up a fake temple to Mystra in the swamps outside Wheloon. I would submit that this proves that even greater gods are not all seeing. If Mystra knew about the temple, I would think that something would have happened to it be it through direct action (an earthquake or avatar) or through directed intervention (one of her Chosen shows up and levels the place).
Given that, I believe that small cults could flourish by either making sure they don't gain any attention or the god allows it since the followers will be offering sincere worship even though the leadership is false. The leaders that start to drive people away from worship that god will get a manifestation that will show displeasure. If their actions start to spread and give the god's church a bad name, then you will see a true priest somewhere assemble an army for a holy war. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 16:07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
In the 3e adventure Tearing of the Weave, followers of Shar set up a fake temple to Mystra in the swamps outside Wheloon. I would submit that this proves that even greater gods are not all seeing. If Mystra knew about the temple, I would think that something would have happened to it be it through direct action (an earthquake or avatar) or through directed intervention (one of her Chosen shows up and levels the place).
As I recall, that adventure also refers to how Mystra has a very small, even nonexistent, presence in Cormyr. There are no large temples to her in the region (Wheloon is literally the first ever!), which suggests that it wasn't just about gods not being all-seeing, but that her church straight-up is not involved with Cormyr.
The lack of temples strongly implies that one of the reasons Mystra doesn't have many temples there is quite literally because Mystra herself simply isn't worshipped much in Cormyr. You don't get temples where you don't have anybody who worships you, and she barely even seems to have itinerant priests in the area. Not just that her organised church isn't hugely involved, but that Mystra worship in and of itself doesn't have a strong regional footprint either in private or public worship.
Her Chosen get involved in Cormyr, particularly since Cormyr is parked next door to where several of them hang out and they have various schemes going on there. But Mystra's Chosen are not part of her actual church hierarchy, they're a group of personal agents and storage batteries for divine power who do their own thing most of the time. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 16:26:17
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| And that's kind of an odd thing. You'd figure with all the War Wizards, that Suzail at least would have a temple to Mystra. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 17:23:37
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| I would have to agree with Gary. I believe it would be more likely that Azuth would be worshipped instead of Mystra. Magic can be quite chaotic at times but the spells themselves give a structure to that magic. Given how structured/organized Cormyr is, worship of Azuth would be more desirable by those in power. Of course, that would only go so far. There are probably small shrines to Azuth in War Wizard chapter houses but that would be about as far as it would be allowed to go. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 19:15:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And that's kind of an odd thing. You'd figure with all the War Wizards, that Suzail at least would have a temple to Mystra.
Also given how much involvement her Chosen, Elminster and Storm, have with the country.... that's one statement that I definitely consider non-canon. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 21:58:44
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We know that the gods that exist in the current timeline have had different incarnations, aspects and distinct sets of values in the past than they do now, as is notable with Amaunator/Lathander, Targus/Garagos, Mystra, etc. Perhaps the gods change in time not only out of their own volition, but (and this is speculation) they are also influenced by the values and beliefs of their worshippers as well.
In my mind I would wager that the gods ideally want as many worshippers as they can get, in order to maintain their power and influence, and they allow certain cults to exist as "experiments" provided they don't fundamentally violate the central tenets of that particular deity. By enabling this they open up a potential avenue for a god to grow or gravitate towards, and should the sect eventually prove more popular than the heterodox faith, then that gradually becomes the new primary central faith. When a cult does do however grievously violate the core commandments of a particular god (as is the case with the Helmite cult you mentioned), instead of the god smiting the offending heretics themselves, I would expect they would instead instruct or inspire (through cryptic visions or signs) some promising and righteous devotees to fight and bring justice on their behalf instead.
The gods shouldn't be too directly involved in the affairs of mortals, in my opinion, and that seems to be more or less similar to what Ed has said in the past about how both the gods and faith functions in the Realms. |
Edited by - deserk on 01 Sep 2021 22:10:45 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 22:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And that's kind of an odd thing. You'd figure with all the War Wizards, that Suzail at least would have a temple to Mystra.
Well, it may also be the case that most War Wizards simply worship other gods than Mystra, so she ends up not being primary patron god, so to speak. Azuth, perhaps, or Savras. Or Tymora or Tempus for that matter, depending on their outlook. Not that they would not understand her to be Goddess of Magic, just that it would not result in her being a specific patron for perhaps the majority.
Elminster and other agents of Mystra continually getting all up in their business (to use a particular turn of phrase) may also have soured them on her institutionally, as Gary suggests regarding Vangerdahast. Worship of Mystra is not an unknown among War Wizards, since Jorunhast was known to have venerated her, but it may not be the norm for a host of reasons that are really quite fascinating vis a vis Cormyr policies. To me, anyway.
EDIT: It occurs to me that Mystra does have a fairly strong presence in Sembia. Regional geopolitics may well be playing a role. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
Edited by - Eldacar on 01 Sep 2021 22:32:31 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 02:56:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And that's kind of an odd thing. You'd figure with all the War Wizards, that Suzail at least would have a temple to Mystra.
Realmslore from 1E and 2E eras still carried hints of "traditional" Gygaxian misogyny. Manly wizards might prefer to worship manly gods like Azuth or Velsharoon, not recognizing some feminine interloper like Mystra more than strictly required (if at all).
This was apparently a prevalent mindset with certain cultures and schools of magic - Red Wizards and Zhents in particular. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 08:06:13
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| Isn't Tymora the primary Obarskyr Deity? I agree with Azuth possibly being more prominent in Cormyr. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
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words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 14:25:22
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Gods do hear their names spoken... but filter out most of the time. Was in several Ed's answers (the last one here).
The reactions on mortals "trespassing"? As usual: it depends.
Spawning an avatar to smite usually is an option, but not the best one. Such an extreme reaction is expensive and somewhat risky, i.e. at the cost of a major power investment, and an ambush by hostile divine agents may make it even more expensive. Also, attracts attention of rivals while reducing one's own attention to other places.
Which is why defiling a shrine can be done at all, of course.
Thus smiting, while never out of fashion, usually is done via mortal and/or extraplanar servants. Gives mortal followers XP good exercise and/or sunk costs, and won't eat too much power even with "special blessings" thrown in. A certain bunch of jokers played pranks with a statue of Gruumsh in one Salvatore's novel... as a result Obould was made his champion and things got quite unfunny for a while. 
Besides, false followers and heresies are not always bad enough to bother squashing. Shar and Lolth didn't encourage the She-Spider Cult, but ate free faith while it's served, so they just let these clowns live. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 14:42:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Realmslore from 1E and 2E eras still carried hints of "traditional" Gygaxian misogyny. Manly wizards might prefer to worship manly gods like Azuth or Velsharoon, not recognizing some feminine interloper like Mystra more than strictly required (if at all).
This was apparently a prevalent mindset with certain cultures and schools of magic - Red Wizards and Zhents in particular.
I don't see the "misoginy angle" working for the Red Wizards at all:
- the sources have them much more discriminating between their job (magic) and their faith, with a lot pledging allegiance to the gamut of evil deities (Beshaba, Loviatar, Umberlee, Shar, Talona among them, look how many females!);
- they already had the regional aspects of the Mulhorandi pantheon (including Typhon/Seth and Tholaunt/Thoth who don't try to give you moral guidance in spell research nor chastise you if you are not a goody-two-shoes);
- they place much more emphasis on their specialist schools so it's safe to say that the school specific deities got more supporters than generic Mystra;
- many of them also revere the elemental gods and are best buddies with Kossuth;
- Mystra 2.0 (and to some extent 1.0) has always been meddling in the affairs of wizards, the Red Wizards don't want that, don't want someone imposing a morality to their spell research;
On this last point, that's the same problem you would have as a Zhent worshipping Mystra: she wants to tell you what you can or cannot research, who you can or cannot experiment on and so forth while most Zhent mages just want the power, which means they would not look to Mystra as an appealing deity.
The fact she is mostly regarded as feminine has not much bearing on the faith of the members of evil organisations. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 15:10:47
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Yeah, I don't see the red wizards not worshipping Mystra having to do with her being a female. I see it that she was pushing moral ethics. Also, a founding piece of red wizard history is Freedom to study whatever we want without the worries of religion. I CAN however see red wizard males acting in ways that are horrible representations of male chauvinism.... but at the same time, I won't say that red wizard females are shining bastions of femininity either, as they were/are just as repugnant and possibly more dangerous. I'd say the same thing happens amongst the Zhents and a LOT of evil groups, and its this selfish nature that makes these people evil.
I also will note that it is probably not unusual to find that many people find themselves drawn to a god who represents themselves as the same physical sex as themselves. Of course, there are several deities that I think cross that line. For instance, I can see a lot of "tactical" red wizards following the red knight. I can see a lot of female red wizards possibly following Deneir. Then there's the whole slew of evil goddesses previously mentioned.
Worship of Velsharoon in Thay I see as being a very mixed bag full of controversy, seeing as he was a renegade prior to ascension, is a new deity, and was an enemy of the Zulkir of Necromancy prior to ascension. I wouldn't be surprised if there were factions seeking to suppress his church. I wouldn't be surprised if enemies of Tam wouldn't have specifically invited his church in (for instance, I would expect to find a temple of his in Bezantur... but that was a city full of temples). Once the civil war started however, the necromancers amongst those who opposed Tam would have probably proudly embraced this church though. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Sep 2021 15:23:53 |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 17:11:29
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Thank you all for those interesting examples (I didn’t know about the She-spider cult)! I agree that there are many examples where a god wouldn’t be aware of their influence being used, as well as cases where they wouldn’t care. The Neverwinter Nights case is interesting because this is a situation where Helm would be aware of several of his clerics being slaughtered (unless he never received their dying prayers and didn’t notice they suddenly all stopped asking for powers?), new clerics nearby claiming to cure a plague in his name (Neverwinter is a big city, and with the intervention of the false priests, many people are certainly praying to Helm about the plague). Helm would have reasons to be suspicious enough to at least send some clerics there to see what’s happening. In fact there are many (actual) priests of Tyr in the city who are working closely with the false Helmites, and Helm is not asking Tyr to do anything to watch them (that’s before the Spellplague, Tyr and Helm should be working closely together). Add to that that the plague has been going on a while, and Helm should definitely have noticed something was off and intervened in some fashion.
Because it’s not only about saving lives here: if people came to believe that Helm cursed innocent people with a plague, it would be terrible for his reputation, and what is a god beside his reputation?
But outside of this specific example, I'm glad that the discussion brought up so many interesting possible situations for game scenarios! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2021 : 16:23:39
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| -I love seeing and understanding religious syncretism in real life and I wish there were more cases of that kind of stuff in the setting. Cults and heresies and things of that nature being more widespread and/or mainstream definitely would make the world feel more alive and would make things feel more nuanced in a world where deities and other planar very clearly exist and have an impact on the world that they can't and don't randomly take matters into their own hand in every little conflict and struggle that goes on in the mortal world. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2021 : 02:01:29
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The Neverwinter Nights case is interesting only insofar as it highlights the egregious dissonance between the way the computer games treat the lore on the whole and the slightly more balanced take in the gaming products and the novels (although they too often sacrifice commonsense and credibility for a "kewl" idea). The Realms has always been presented as a living, breathing, evolving world and yet the lack of regard to coherence and the exploration of cause/effect over many years has created problems such as the one you highlight here. There is no "answer" to your query because it is based on, quite simply, bad execution of an idea which someone used to drive a computer game story. The idea could have been presented "properly" but the scope of the computer game simply did not allow that to occur. It's the prime reason why I follow the Jim Butler rule from the 1E/2E Forgotten Realms: if elements of a computer game release do not receive follow up in a gaming product or novel, they don't exist for the purposes of the canon Realms. It makes life far easier in my Realms. So in this case the only mention of the Wailing Plague is in GHotR - but it doesn't say how the Wailing Plague came about, leaving me free to ignore the Helmet aspect if I so choose and go with something else in my game that suits it better.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2021 : 02:50:03
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From my reading of Ed's novels, specifically the Elminster series, other than El, and a few others, most spellslingers that are introduced seem to lack any devotion to deific power whatsoever. Most seem to be either so self-absorbed they nearly worship themselves, or evil deities that align with their more base desires. I recall a Malarite Magelord in Making of a Mage, and a few Banites or Sharrans along the way. The one deviation seemed to be the elven mages (and all the elves in general) who came across as slightly more pious, which I found a bit odd, as non-drow elves never struck me as particularly religious, but maybe that was just my reading of it.
I suppose my point is that it wouldn't surprise me if Mystra wasn't particularly worshiped by the War Wizards. The expansion of magic for the sake of magic would almost seem to not be in the best interests of a military organization that should have a quite structured system of spells and spell use. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2021 : 07:54:44
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quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
From my reading of Ed's novels, specifically the Elminster series, other than El, and a few others, most spellslingers that are introduced seem to lack any devotion to deific power whatsoever. Most seem to be either so self-absorbed they nearly worship themselves, or evil deities that align with their more base desires. I recall a Malarite Magelord in Making of a Mage,
And the rest of them played dog in the manger with Mystra's temple until there was ankle deep carpet of dust.
Which was a part of their path to Asking For It, in the end.
quote:
The one deviation seemed to be the elven mages (and all the elves in general) who came across as slightly more pious, which I found a bit odd, as non-drow elves never struck me as particularly religious, but maybe that was just my reading of it.
My reading is that the attitude of most elves in this isn't so much "religious" as "clingy kids"... but either way the Seldarine are tied quite strongly to The Vanilla Elfy Elf Way ("barbarian elves" in Zakharan terms) including collective self-adoration.
To the point when there's a visible trend for "vanilla elves" who admire anyone else for more than three heartbeats to mysteriously pick up non-Seldarine worship.
quote:
I suppose my point is that it wouldn't surprise me if Mystra wasn't particularly worshiped by the War Wizards.
Cormyr is a special case.
They have a tradition of deliberately keeping all priests and gods at arm's length and playing balance of powers with them as natural mutual rivals in general.
And dislike for the common priestly opportunism in particular.
Also, divine magic other as a source of information is deliberately "separated from the State" thanks to a superstition made up by the elves to manipulate humans and exloited by Azuth and Mystra to "manipulate the market" for more arcane magic.
And then there's good old Vangey with his control freakery (infamous enough that the jokes about Vangerdahast's Ghost Pipes and "Cormyrean musician guild" are instantly understood by anyone who knows about him, for one).
So there are many pious people, but the religious attitudes are "contained". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Fake cults
