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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Aug 2021 : 16:25:16
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| I'd like a source on that Weave creation date, myself. It's not something I recall seeing before. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2021 : 17:16:49
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Without the weave there is only raw magic that can be accessed through ritual casting. It's much more powerful and customisable (you are not limited by anything but your own ability), but it is expensive, it has a high failure rate, and it is very dangerous (any failure could be fatal).
Or by being a dragon. They can draw the natural magic of the plane itself without any intermediaries and, it seems, without any of the risks as well. And I guess this also applies to any dragon-blooded spellcaster who draws its magic from their dragon heritage.
(Sources: Draconomicon 2e, Dragon #388, "Old Souls: Heroes of Legend Reborn", Fizban's Treasury of Dragons)
Well, combining this with what Gary said about the Weave being created 30,000 years ago, wouldn't that mean that any system of magic created before then would necessarily not have a dependency on the Weave? If so, the Rune Magic of giants would fall into that category, right? Would there be any others?
There are many systems that don't depend on the Weave. Elminster's Forgotten Realms mentions pluma magic, true name magic, table magic and rune magic as some of these. I dunno if they predate the Weave or not.
Divine magic should also be Weaveless, or else Mystra would become a tyrannical goddess worthy of Bane... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Aug 2021 17:39:36 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2021 : 17:48:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Or by being a dragon. They can draw the natural magic of the plane itself without any intermediaries and, it seems, without any of the risks as well. And I guess this also applies to any dragon-blooded spellcaster who draws its magic from their dragon heritage.
(Sources: Draconomicon 2e, Dragon #388, "Old Souls: Heroes of Legend Reborn", Fizban's Treasury of Dragons)
Well, combining this with what Gary said about the Weave being created 30,000 years ago, wouldn't that mean that any system of magic created before then would necessarily not have a dependency on the Weave? If so, the Rune Magic of giants would fall into that category, right? Would there be any others?
There are many systems that don't depend on the Weave. Elminster's Forgotten Realms mentions pluma magic, true name magic, table magic and rune magic as some of these. I dunno if they predate the Weave or not.
Divine magic should also be Weaveless, or else Mystra would become a tyrannical goddess worthy of Bane...
Aren't divine casters affected by Dead/Wild Magic zones? If they are, that would indicate they use the Weave in some manner. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2021 : 23:17:45
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Actually, what Ed has said is that while the gods do use the Weave to grant divine magic to their worshippers, people can use divine magic without the Weave. Is just harder for the gods to do it that way (Ed has compared the Weave to an avenue while using divine magic directly from the gods as small and difficult road).
So, I guess the gods were also tricked by the Baeth, or the spellweavers, to rely too much in the Weave. To the point that Mystra can shut down their magic when she wants (and people says she is not a tyrant...) and they will not resort to use their own power to cast/grant spells, because reasons... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Aug 2021 23:19:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2021 : 01:04:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
To the point that Mystra can shut down their magic when she wants (and people says she is not a tyrant...)
By this standard, every single deity is a tyrant. Chauntea can stop things from growing. Lathander can stop the sun from rising. Gond could prevent all inventions. And so on.
I grow weary of people constantly bashing Mystra, especially when it's on a topic that applies equally to all deities. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2021 : 01:53:01
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| Well, she already did it (and not only as Mystra, but the Netheril boxed set implies Mystryl did it on a regular basis) and is still willing to do it (as per one of Ed's tweets). I don't know more instances of another god who actually withheld access to their portfolio only because they could. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2021 : 02:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, she already did it (and not only as Mystra, but the Netheril boxed set implies Mystryl did it on a regular basis) and is still willing to do it (as per one of Ed's tweets). I don't know more instances of another god who actually withheld access to their portfolio only because they could.
Mystra did it in one novel, to one deity, and was slapped down for it.
I do not recall any such implications in the Netheril set. Page numbers?
A deity being willing to do something to protect their portfolio doesn't make them a tyrant. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2021 : 02:44:17
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| IIRC it was either The Trial of Cyric or Prince of Lies novel Wooly. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2021 : 03:02:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Mystra did it in one novel, to one deity, and was slapped down for it.
I do not recall any such implications in the Netheril set. Page numbers?
A deity being willing to do something to protect their portfolio doesn't make them a tyrant.
1. Well, you just need to kill once to be called a killer, so...
2. Page 49 of the the book that talks about the gods. it says that Mystryl withheld the ability to cast spells to those spellcasters that didn't revered her. She also did it to some gods, as well.
3. Perhaps being willing to do something doesn't make you a tyrant. But when you have an historial of doing something... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Aug 2021 03:04:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2021 : 04:00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Mystra did it in one novel, to one deity, and was slapped down for it.
I do not recall any such implications in the Netheril set. Page numbers?
A deity being willing to do something to protect their portfolio doesn't make them a tyrant.
1. Well, you just need to kill once to be called a killer, so...
2. Page 49 of the the book that talks about the gods. it says that Mystryl withheld the ability to cast spells to those spellcasters that didn't revered her. She also did it to some gods, as well.
3. Perhaps being willing to do something doesn't make you a tyrant. But when you have an historial of doing something...
1. You're not called a killer if you're defending yourself.
2. Page 49 does not say that she did that. It said she COULD do that.
3. There's no history of this, aside from a single conflict in the modern era when she was still mostly mortal. Even then, it was just against a specific enemy, and not to his followers. And again, she was slapped down for it. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2021 : 04:35:21
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It's worth mentioning that psionics does not use Mystra's Weave as it involves creatures having their own personal Weave -- 3e Player's Guide to Faerūn.
Before the Weave of Realmspace was formed, there probably has always been the basic principle of forming a medium to cast magic, so even if the Weave never existed, there would still be some method to channel magical energy and shape it into spells.
It's also worth mentioning that magic beyond the scale of 9th level was never fully banned. It was the standard method to achieving post-9th magic that was banned. Now, to cast epic level magic, methods that have a lot of extra steps or requirements are required, making it easier to regulate. Szass Tam for example tried to take advantage of Mystra's absence to cast an unregulated ritual that would normally have been denied by Mystra because it surely threatened the Cosmic Balance (fortunately he failed).
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2021 : 15:34:59
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Just one thing to bear in mind regarding the "withholding of the weave" that happened as well. That Mystra is presumably dead, and she was notedly different from the original (alignment change from LN to NG). We don't exactly know what we have back now, but it may not be "Midnight/Mystra" or as some of us call her Mystra II. In the original FR campaign set it said
"She is said to have given the first teachings that unlocked the forces termed 'magic' to the races of the Prime Material plane (and, some say, has forever after
regretted the deed.) Mystra was made lawful neutral on the premise that magic is inherently neutral and exhibits internal order and laws."
The goddess that then took over from 1359 to 1385, was worried about how people used magic morally, etc...
To note, the ORIGINAL Mystryl was noted as CN .... so all 3 goddesses of magic have had vastly different viewpoints on things. Only one of these was worried about morals, and she held the power for the least amount of time. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2021 : 15:54:59
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The current Mystra is NG. So, we are stuck with a version of Mystra who has the same views than Midnight...
Anyways, I don't want to derail this topic sny longer. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2021 : 03:11:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To note, the ORIGINAL Mystryl was noted as CN .... so all 3 goddesses of magic have had vastly different viewpoints on things. Only one of these was worried about morals, and she held the power for the least amount of time.
Aw man, now I want NE Mystra to cancel it all out. Rule of threes is pretty great though. LN CN and NG are over their average, NG.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The current Mystra is NG. So, we are stuck with a version of Mystra who has the same views than Midnight...
Anyways, I don't want to derail this topic sny longer.
I'm not exactly in a hurry to get back on topic, but, yeah I do think "..without the weave there is only raw magic that can be accessed through ritual casting.." was a pretty succinct answer to build off of for the original question on the skins. |
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Edited by - PattPlays on 04 Aug 2021 03:16:08 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2021 : 05:42:09
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| "..without the weave there is only raw magic that can be accessed through ritual casting.." Or by being a dragon (or dragon-related creature), who can access the raw magic of their plane of origin (usually, the material, but there are planar dragons) directly without any risks. IMO, I can see dragons not adding their knowledge to the Scrolls just because of that. They don't cast magic as the rest of creatures do. They are closer to the D&D concept of sorcerers. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2021 : 07:19:34
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I'm not certain the dragon bit is true for FR dragons. In several sources it is said that dragons are part of the weave (a similar thing has been said about elves). Now it doesnt explain what that means, but to my mind it indicates why dragons have an innate spellcasting ability.
Now how that link to the weave happened is anyones guess, but mine is that it involves attuning an entire race to one of the early weave anchors somehow.
When the elves did something similar I'm gonna guess that is how they obtained access to elven high magic, which Ed has said still uses the weave even though it is more like a ritual than it is a spell.
There is such a thing as weave masters who are able to change bits about spells on the fly, this is probably provided through a closer link to the weave.
So using the above to explain dragon magic. They are closely linked to the weave, may have their own set of spells but equally it may just be that they can spontaneously alter spells on the fly to make them seem different from the spells everyone else uses.
Dragons should still use the weave though, but it is possible that of all the races they have preserved some knowledge about how to use raw magic.
The use of raw magic is how I imagine Epic Magic to be, really complicated even for the most basic of effects, there are no predefined spells, and if you get it wrong you arm might burn off or you transform into a blob of green goo, or you disintegrate yourself. |
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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 04 Aug 2021 07:22:10 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2021 : 07:40:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I'm not certain the dragon bit is true for FR dragons. In several sources it is said that dragons are part of the weave (a similar thing has been said about elves). Now it doesnt explain what that means, but to my mind it indicates why dragons have an innate spellcasting ability.
Besides the fact that the new Fizban's book will overwrite and retcon any previous lore, and thus this new lore applies to dragons of the Realms, this is from the 2e Draconomicon (p.85), that as far as I know, is a Realms sourcebook:
quote:
Dragons are creatures innately bound to the Prime Material plane. (Excerpts from the Book of the World, which was mentioned in Chapter 1, seem to confirm this by describing dragons as "wyrms of the earth, linked to the fundament of all.") Some of dragonkind's magical abilities are inextricably linked to the Prime Material plane, and will vanish should a dragon ever travel to another plane.
That is basically what the Fizban's book says, just that Fizban's elaborates more and changes a few things (as stuff like lair effects didn't existed back in 2e). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2021 : 08:16:35
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And though in modern times we see dragons as sorcerer casters for their monster entries, isn't it Realms flair that Dragons acquire spellbooks and such (even using magical items to help them utilize humanoid spellbooks) and have been prolific wizards in a variety of cases across history?
Also with the elves being alien invaders, I would assume their high magic would tap into whatever are the greatest sources of magic available to them on any world. Toril's elven high magic came from elven desire that would likely exist in equal measure in other dimensions and realms they traveled to, where they would likely tap into whatever they find. Elves found and grasped the weave for their magics in the past just as elves in more recent time tapped into Faerzress during the dark disaster. I don't think an elf quite cares where they anchor themselves for their mass sacrificial spells of high-minded disaster rituals. |
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Edited by - PattPlays on 04 Aug 2021 08:16:58 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2021 : 13:46:40
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I like the idea of dragon's being tied to THEIR crystal sphere or prime material plane for their power. It could even be interesting if we found out that the dragons that came to Toril from Abeir lost power if they ever left Laerakond (even if it were only true for the more powerful ones).
That all being said, I'm a fan of "it works that way for some things", such that we end up with reasons for say the different types of dragons. For instance, maybe gem and lung dragons are the way we're describing, but metallic and chromatic are less tied to the land and draw on the weave. Maybe this comes from "falling from the sky", given Selune's/Shar's ties to magic and Mystra. At the same, time, while I say gem and lung... given gem's ties to psionics, maybe they have another different power source, so that we don't even have it separated into 2 camps, but several. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2021 : 18:13:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I think the rule of new lore trumps old no longer applies given the quality of new lore and consideration for the work of others.
This is completely subjetive and should not be taken into account, lol.
quote:
That aside, there are multiple instances of dragons being on the outer planes and nowhere does it mention a loss of spellcasting ability (there are probably instances of then casting spells on the planes but I dont recall).
As far as I know, that happened in 3.x products onwards, so... you are using the "newer lore trumps over the old" thingy here.
quote:
If the statement about being Prime bound is wrong then we could assume the unreliable narrator (very much prevalent I'm 2e draconomicon) may have confused the weave with them being prime bound. So dragons could be closely bound to the weave and if they leave the confines of the weave they lose their spellcasting ability. This we know is partly true but after a period of adjustment those dragons can learn to use magic again outside the weave (im sure Ed has said as much before in his replies regarding weave users on other worlds - although interestingly he implied that other worlds may have their own versions of the weave).
Or saying that dragons are weave-bound may be a lie spread by Mystra and her followers. Ed has also said that the gods and their followers lie to make the gods seem more than what they truly are.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
And though in modern times we see dragons as sorcerer casters for their monster entries, isn't it Realms flair that Dragons acquire spellbooks and such (even using magical items to help them utilize humanoid spellbooks) and have been prolific wizards in a variety of cases across history?
That paragraph says that "some of dragonkind's magical abilities are inextricably linked to the Prime Material plane", with "some" being the key word here. Not all of the magical abilities of dragons are drawn from their connections to the Prime. Which means that, if they want to use the magic of humanoids they should use magic items and spell books. And that also means that if Mystra decides to die again, or play tyrant against dragons, they will not lose all of their magical abilities for being cut off from the Weave.
Now, do "some" means "most" of their abilities? Or just a few? That would be the real question here? IMO, they should derive nearly all of their abilities from the Plane and just the copied magical stuff of the humanoids from the Weave, but my opinion is biased here. I do like that dragons are not Weave-dependant, as I don't like Mystra's control over the access to magic.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That all being said, I'm a fan of "it works that way for some things", such that we end up with reasons for say the different types of dragons. For instance, maybe gem and lung dragons are the way we're describing, but metallic and chromatic are less tied to the land and draw on the weave. Maybe this comes from "falling from the sky", given Selune's/Shar's ties to magic and Mystra. At the same, time, while I say gem and lung... given gem's ties to psionics, maybe they have another different power source, so that we don't even have it separated into 2 camps, but several.
Thing is, the book is talking specifically about Metallics and Chromantics. Lungs and Gems are not in that book, so really saying that this only applies to the ones not mentioned in the book is changing all the info there. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Aug 2021 18:16:47 |
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On the skins of the world serpent
