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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 16:38:17
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So one thing I noted in DD's guide to the Underdark, was a statement that some people believe that derro "may be a result of duergar/dwarves and human breeding". MToF remarks on the "twin brothers" Diirinka and Diinkarazan, and Diirinka betrays Diinkarazan to steal magic. Monster Mythology relates a story or Diirinka and Diinkarazan encountering the brain of Ilsensine, and Diirinka backstabbing Diinkarazan and leaving him behind in order to steal the magical knowledge of Ilsensine, which he then uses to create the derro race. This story (twins... Ilsensine and being near Oryndoll) is just screaming to me of a story on the creation of Derro, especially given that one city of Shanatar was dedicated to the deity who was backstabbed and left behind, and whom the monster mythology remarks as that god is bound to a throne by Ilsensine now.
This makes me wonder if Diirinka and Diinkarazan weren't themselves "as twins" ..... spawns.... who had some knowledge of deepspawns and were involved with the illithid colony of Oryndoll that was involved with Ilsensine. It also makes me wonder if the creation of Deepspawn wasn't something taught to the illithids... maybe by Phalse working with/through Ilsensine (or maybe Phalse came later)? Maybe by adapting captured beholders using some kind of ceremorphosis?
So, before we start.... some quotes to refresh all of our memories, because I'm betting you (like me) read this stuff long ago and with a lot of time between things. After that, I'll start another quote of possible ideas, in the hopes that we can have some back and forth.
page 85 of DDGttU
One of the eight subkingdoms of Deep Shanatar, the Jewel Kingdom of Korolnor lives on. Although not as deep as Torgfor (see below), Korolnor was located far beneath the surface in an extensive network of caverns with numerous surface links.
<snip>
When Korolnor was first found millennia ago, the dwarves honored Diinkarazan as their patron deity. After the Spawn Wars, worship of Diinkarazan was abandoned throughout Shanatar, including in Korolnor, in favor of worshiping the entire dwarven pantheon. Nevertheless, a legacy of Diinkarazan's faith remains within the deepest caverns of the kingdom.
The Throne of the Mad God once served as the ruling seat of Korolnor's monarchs, but today it contains the last remnant of Diinkarazan's power in the Realms Below. By unknown means, Diinkarazan can manifest a shadow of his ancient power through the ancient throne and direct the trolls of Stommheim, despite his imprisonment by Ilsensine. Led by secret derro renegades drawn to Diinkarazan's madness, the troll armies battle surface dwellers for the mountains above and the mind flayers of Oryndoll for the caverns below. Since the Time of Troubles, Diinkarazan's power has begun to increase anew. War between the trolls and the thrall armies of Oryndoll threatens once again to engulf the Underdark of eastern Amn and the Shining Plains.
And from Monster Mythology
Diirinka had a twin brother, Diinkarazan. Because the latter god is shunned in derro lore as taught by the shamans who revere only Diirinka, this fact is known to very few derro (or to anyone else, bar the illithids). The two young gods, probably children of one or other of the lesser dwarven gods (this is most unclear), sought to expand their dominion and wished to create their own race of dwarves. They wanted their creation to be distinctive, typified by qualities hill and mountain dwarves lack: speed, dexterity, and magical prowess. Drawn to deeper places than other dwarves, they explored the Underdark and found a vast cavern glittering with the elemental force of raw magic.
They began to gather up strange, alien magical artifacts scattered about a central green crystal sphere floating just above the ground, and as they did so a vast spectral brain floated up from the sphere and surveyed them coldly. Ilsensine, the god of illithids, did not take well to his secrets being stolen by a pair of diminutive dwarves. Diirinka backstabbed his own brother and left him to be consumed by the spectral horror, fleeing for his life. He left his brother to be cursed most horribly by the furious illithid, and banished to the Abyss where he still dwells.
Returning to his own lands, Diirinka hid himself from the other dwarven deities and began meddling with the magic he had retrieved. After centuries of experimenting (and disposing of failed experiments, a gruesome process which in some worlds has left races of deformed, mindless dwarf-like monstrosities shambling about in isolated cave complexes) he perfected the derro race. In orthodox derro mythology, it is Diirinka's own skills which created them, but the truth is different.
Again myth splits here: In some demo myths, they were driven away by dwarf gods jealous of Diirinka's prowess and creation, in others Diirinka has hidden them in the Underdark so that the gods of the dwarves will not rise up in jealousy against the derro.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Jul 2021 18:01:11
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 18:12:42
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| Aren't mindwitnesses the result of beholder ceremorphosis? Also Diirinka stole magic from Ilsensine in the Caverns of Thought, a realm in the Outlands, maybe that was somehow reflected in the Prime, in Oryndoll. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6358 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 18:57:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Aren't mindwitnesses the result of beholder ceremorphosis? Also Diirinka stole magic from Ilsensine in the Caverns of Thought, a realm in the Outlands, maybe that was somehow reflected in the Prime, in Oryndoll.
Yep, mindwitnesses are. You'll see in my next response, I started thinking about OTHER types of beholders, and there's a kind with mouths at the end of their tentacles (death hiss beholders), that I think we could use for this.
Just wondering, what source is there that specifices that it was the Cavern of Thoughts in the Outlands? The above just says the Underdark. Not against it mind you, and there can be workarounds
like a portal between the two places, etc.... Just trying to form up some kind of theory and see where it goes, so shoot holes at it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 19:05:43
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Ok with that out of the way, let's open the floor to some idea / suppositions / or just general ponderings and see where we might take this
First - Did the illithids create OR enslave deepspawn? I'm thinking tentatively let's say yes. I lean towards them creating deepspawn via a twisted ceremorphosis method of beholders OR the beholderkin known as Death Kiss beholders (the ones with mouths on their tentacles for draining blood).
Second - Is Phalse of the Alias storyline RELATED somehow to deepspawn? He was a "beholder-like creature, except that his tentacles ended in mouths. Beholders found this disgusting." and he was documented as creating "echoes" of Alias. My first thoughts are that maybe Phalse is an ASCENDED deepspawn which is on the cusp of godhood, who hopes to create worshippers through spawning them and imbuing them with souls. Perhaps he is also being aided in this by Leira (who is acting in a way similar to Talos did with Malyk and Velsharoon... sponsoring Phalse to godhood). There's a lot of ways to spin this, so feel free to throw out a version.
Third - Are Diirinka and Diinkarazan from Shanatar (specifically the city Korolnor)? Were they ceremorphs created in Oryndoll that survived? Are they spawns made from the same being devoured by a deepspawn? At this time, let's suppose yes on this and suppose that a large population of Korolnor was taken by illithids, and maybe they enacted a "spell" or "psionic power" that caused the dwarves of Korolnor to forget about the dwarves that were taken? Maybe some of them were experimented on, creating the first being that was a "derro".... and this being was fed to a deepspawn to create Diirinka and Diinkarazan (and possibly OTHER spawn just like themselves)?
Fifth - Is the green crystal sphere mentioned in the myth of the derro brother gods some kind of udoxias or mythal or athora like magic? Could it be something even more advanced like the manifestation of Auppenser itself?
Sixth - Assuming the green crystal sphere is Auppenser.... might it have freed Diirinka and Diinkarazan's mind from enslavement to the deepspawn? Might it have sought to free them in order to get someone to free IT from the mind flayers? Were they maybe given souls (or if they already had them, were they granted chosen status with immortality), making them different from other spawn?
Sixth - Did maybe Diirinka and Diinkarazan escape from Oryndoll and return to Korolnor, in possession of "wild talents" given them by Auppenser? Were they promised the ability to ascend or somesuch if they "free it"? Maybe they dragged their former deepspawn "master" in tow with them, with "the crystal" having turned the table on the creature such that IT is fanatically loyal THEM rather than the other way around? Maybe they use the deepspawn to bring prosperity to Korolnor in the form of food? Maybe they are seen as demigods and people come to worship them?
Seventh - This I might need some help with.... maybe Diirinka and Diinkarazan RETURN to Oryndoll seeking to gain more power in the form of magical secrets? Maybe Diinkarazan is "projecting" himself there via his throne and "riding" his brother's mind? Diirinka gets to the crystal, and offers his brother's mind up as a sacrifice in return for godhood? He escapes with the gem in tow, bringing the equivalent of a udoxias to Korolnor, maybe?
Eight - Maybe humans of what will become Jhaamdath discover Korolnor, and they find a green crystal sphere, and this becomes their first udoxias or awakens them to psionics or puts them in contact with Auppenser or somesuch?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
962 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2021 : 21:54:08
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For something I'm working on I compiled/wrote the following:
Grandiose fantasies and rampant fanaticism have obscured the true origin of the derro, even among themselves. Most dwarves (and humans) don't recognize derro as kin, but the legends that the derro tell about their race and the story that the duergar believe share grains of truth.
Some derro savants tell the story of two brothers, Diirinka and Diinkarazan. The brothers are said to be twin sons of Moradin and Berronar and among the first generation of dwarven gods. Like Laduguer, at one time, shield dwarves worshipped them as members of the Morndinsamman. The two were even patrons of two of Deep Shanatar's eight subkingdoms, the Silver Kingdom of Torglor (Diirinka) and the Jewel Kingdom of Korolnor (Diinkarazan).
When war broke out between the eight subkingdoms of Deep Shanatar in -9000 DR, the brothers, especially Diinkarazan, are believed to have convinced their followers to first make use of deepspawn to breed legions of dwarven clones. The Spawn Wars, as this conflict became known, was the first serious break in the brothers' relationship with their father, who saw their actions as an irredeemably evil of madness. The conflict also led most shield dwarves to abandon their worship.
Undeterred, the twins sought to create their own race of dwarves and recapture their dominions. They wanted their creation to be distinctive, typified by qualities most dwarves lack—speed, dexterity, and arcane prowess.
Drawn to deeper places than other dwarves, they delved into the deepest reaches of the Lowerdark and found a vast cavern glittering with the force of raw magic. (It is believed that they had found a gateway to the Far Realm, though the stories differ on whether their search was purposeful or happenstance.) They began to gather up strange, alien magic scattered about a crystal sphere floating just above the ground, and as they did so, a vast spectral brain floated up from the sphere and surveyed them coldly. Ilsensine, the god of illithds, did not take well to his secrets being stolen by a pair of dwarves. Clever Diirinka fleeing for his life, backstabbed his own brother and left him to the spectral horror. The furious illithid god cursed Diinkarazan most horribly and trapped him in the Far Realm (some say banished to the Abyss) where he still dwells, bound to a stone throne seeking naught but revenge. (The danger the brothers are said to face in this legend varies, depending on whatever foe the savants want to lead their people against, yet the essence of the story remains the same: a lesson of survival at any price and an example of how deceitfulness and cruelty can be virtues.)
Returning to his own realm, Diirinka hid himself from the other dwarven gods of the Morndinsamman and began meddling with the magic he had stolen from the Far Realm, a magic that began to change him (and drive him mad). After experimenting and disposing of failed experiments, he crafted the derro race.
As for Diinkarazan, once every 50 years or so, he experiences a day of lucidity. On this day, he transforms a derro into his avatar to stalk derro communities, destroy all he can, and warp what is left behind. At these times, his hunger for revenge is so great that his behavior often degenerates into a frenzy of slaying anything he comes across until his mortal host is slain. (In addition, the Throne of the Mad God, which once served as the ruling seat of Korolnor's monarchs, contains the last remnant of Diinkarazan's power in the Realms Below. By unknown means, Diinkarazan can manifest a shadow of his ancient power through the ancient throne and madly direct the trolls of Stommheim above, despite his imprisonment by Ilsensine.)
Corrupted by the Far Realm and having become something other than his children, the All Father exiled the brothers from the Mordinsamman. In some derro myths, the derro were driven away by dwarf gods jealous of Diirinka's prowess and creation, and in others Diirinka has hidden them in the Lowerdark so that the other dwarven gods will not rise up in jealousy against the derro. (While many sages point to Vord's Vow—the foreswearing of arcane magic by dwarves of the Northkingdom in -1421 DR following the defeat of dwarven necromancers of Thanardoom—as the reason for the dwarves' general lack of arcane might, some sages of the stout folk suggest this has more to do with Diirinka's exile centuries earlier.)
According to the duergar, the derro are descended from dwarves of a clan that was left behind when the others escaped the mind flayers' rule. They eventually also got away, but not before becoming demented and contorted.
In -8100 DR, the illithids of Oryndoll, deep beneath the Shining Plains, attacked the eastern subkingdoms of Shanatar, beginning a conflict that came to be known as the Mindstalker Wars among the dwarves and the War of Cloven Thoughts among the mind flayers. The illithids were driven back, but in their wake the surviving Stout Folk discovered that the caverns of Barakuir, which had been cut off in the early days of fighting, lay empty. The shield dwarves of Clan Duergar had been carried off to thralldom in the mind flayers’ realm.
After millennia of enslavement and countless illithid breeding experiments, the descendants of Clan Duergar were transformed into a new dwarven subrace, the grey dwarves. Some of their number were also bred with captive human thralls, spawning yet another subrace known as the derro. Around -4,000 DR, the duergar, as they were now known, began a series of rebellions against their illithid masters that eventually culminated in the nigh-complete liberation of their race. These newly liberated grey dwarves began carving out there own holdings in the Northdark, beneath the Orsraun Mountains, and in isolated caverns deep beneath the Great Glacier. Meanwhile, it took the derro millenia more to free themselves and spread among the Middledark and Lowerdark. (In 1363 DR, the mind flayers that then controlled Gauntlgrym further mutated some derro into true aberrations known as illithiderro or madminds.)
Some have suggested that Diirinka and Diinkarazan were not gods at all, but derro slaves of Oryndoll, and their story is not of gods, but mortals. Sometimes in this telling of the tale, the brothers become gods or join the Great Old Ones of the Far Realm through the magic they stole from the illithids. Others believe that Diirinka and Diinkarazan are naught but a corrupted thought planted in the minds of the mad derro by Ilsensine itself to mollify the derro by making them believe their own history is a reflection of that of their gods. Others say the derro are not native to Faerûn at all and come from a world outside Realmspace or descended from fey corrupted by the Far Realm and not dwarves at all.
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Edited by - TomCosta on 28 Jul 2021 22:00:04 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2021 : 22:19:59
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
First - Did the illithids create OR enslave deepspawn? I'm thinking tentatively let's say yes. I lean towards them creating deepspawn via a twisted ceremorphosis method of beholders OR the beholderkin known as Death Kiss beholders (the ones with mouths on their tentacles for draining blood).
There's another spherical creature with long mouth-tipped tentacles called a Thagar, or Beholder-Eater, from Ed Greenwood's Spelljammer product Lost Ships. They don't have similar properties, though. I don't think I would connect deepspawn to beholders, except maybe as some strange spawn of Great Mother.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Second - Is Phalse of the Alias storyline RELATED somehow to deepspawn? He was a "beholder-like creature, except that his tentacles ended in mouths. Beholders found this disgusting." and he was documented as creating "echoes" of Alias. My first thoughts are that maybe Phalse is an ASCENDED deepspawn which is on the cusp of godhood, who hopes to create worshippers through spawning them and imbuing them with souls. Perhaps he is also being aided in this by Leira (who is acting in a way similar to Talos did with Malyk and Velsharoon... sponsoring Phalse to godhood). There's a lot of ways to spin this, so feel free to throw out a version.
Great Mother has spawned a LOT of unique monsters with tanar'ri and other monsters, besides just the standard beholder-kin. I see Phalse as one of those (Gzemnid is the only one that has become a true deity).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Third - Are Diirinka and Diinkarazan from Shanatar (specifically the city Korolnor)? Were they ceremorphs created in Oryndoll that survived? Are they spawns made from the same being devoured by a deepspawn? At this time, let's suppose yes on this and suppose that a large population of Korolnor was taken by illithids, and maybe they enacted a "spell" or "psionic power" that caused the dwarves of Korolnor to forget about the dwarves that were taken? Maybe some of them were experimented on, creating the first being that was a "derro".... and this being was fed to a deepspawn to create Diirinka and Diinkarazan (and possibly OTHER spawn just like themselves)?
Wouldn't they have to be from somewhere else first, since each of the subrealms was devoted to a deity on creation IIRC? I'm strongly of the opinion that they should be old, like all the other main-line dwarven deities, and they are said to be Moradin's children like most of the other pantheon.
Dragon #241 includes an article by Roger Moore titled "Legacies of the Suel Imperium" that included PC rules for Derro. In it, it describes how the Suel Imperium on Greyhawk bred the derro as a slave race (which also caused a fracture in the Suel pantheon) about 1800 years ago, which inspired me to describe Diirinka as having spread the knowledge of creating Derro throughout the spheres, knowing that they would eventually free themselves from bondage after being created. I see a similar thing as having happened in the Realms, and I think Diirinka would have found it especially pleasing if either dwarves or illithids were responsible there. I'll note that Roger Moore's article specifically leaves Diirinka's origin as unknown, but the in-world author believes he originated with the experiments (I believe the in-world author is wrong).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Fifth - Is the green crystal sphere mentioned in the myth of the derro brother gods some kind of udoxias or mythal or athora like magic? Could it be something even more advanced like the manifestation of Auppenser itself?
I'm pretty sure that is supposed to be related to Ilsensine, since he manifests as a glowing green brain. Whether it was in a planar or prime underdark I don't think really matters that much.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 01:22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
(While many sages point to Vord's Vow—the foreswearing of arcane magic by dwarves of the Northkingdom in -1421 DR following the defeat of dwarven necromancers of Thanardoom—as the reason for the dwarves' general lack of arcane might, some sages of the stout folk suggest this has more to do with Diirinka's exile centuries earlier.)
I do not recognize this one. Is this new lore, or something I have forgotten and need to re-read? |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 02:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Third - Are Diirinka and Diinkarazan from Shanatar (specifically the city Korolnor)? Were they ceremorphs created in Oryndoll that survived? Are they spawns made from the same being devoured by a deepspawn? At this time, let's suppose yes on this and suppose that a large population of Korolnor was taken by illithids, and maybe they enacted a "spell" or "psionic power" that caused the dwarves of Korolnor to forget about the dwarves that were taken? Maybe some of them were experimented on, creating the first being that was a "derro".... and this being was fed to a deepspawn to create Diirinka and Diinkarazan (and possibly OTHER spawn just like themselves)?
In Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, see pages 19, 20-21, 85-86.
You should look at the write-ups of both Korolnor and Torglor.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 02:58:14
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Tom's using (with permission) something George and I wrote but haven't published yet.
--Eric
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
(While many sages point to Vord's Vow—the foreswearing of arcane magic by dwarves of the Northkingdom in -1421 DR following the defeat of dwarven necromancers of Thanardoom—as the reason for the dwarves' general lack of arcane might, some sages of the stout folk suggest this has more to do with Diirinka's exile centuries earlier.)
I do not recognize this one. Is this new lore, or something I have forgotten and need to re-read?
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 06:30:19
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| Great stuff! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 14:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Tom's using (with permission) something George and I wrote but haven't published yet.
--Eric
Interesting. Does this unpublished lore also address why dwarves didn't just shun magic, they actively had difficulties with it? (The 2E thing that's never been addressed in lore, unless you extrapolate from the myth about the dwarves and the Scrolls that WotC once had on their site) |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 19:56:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Tom's using (with permission) something George and I wrote but haven't published yet.
--Eric
Interesting. Does this unpublished lore also address why dwarves didn't just shun magic, they actively had difficulties with it? (The 2E thing that's never been addressed in lore, unless you extrapolate from the myth about the dwarves and the Scrolls that WotC once had on their site)
No. Essentially it makes it resistance to wizardly magic a cultural characteristic of the Stout Folk of Delzoun and their derivatives. It's not a gold dwarf or a shield dwarf of Haunghdannar / Gharraghaur / Ammarindar heritage characteristic. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 20:58:38
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Third - Are Diirinka and Diinkarazan from Shanatar (specifically the city Korolnor)? Were they ceremorphs created in Oryndoll that survived? Are they spawns made from the same being devoured by a deepspawn? At this time, let's suppose yes on this and suppose that a large population of Korolnor was taken by illithids, and maybe they enacted a "spell" or "psionic power" that caused the dwarves of Korolnor to forget about the dwarves that were taken? Maybe some of them were experimented on, creating the first being that was a "derro".... and this being was fed to a deepspawn to create Diirinka and Diinkarazan (and possibly OTHER spawn just like themselves)?
In Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, see pages 19, 20-21, 85-86.
You should look at the write-ups of both Korolnor and Torglor.
--Eric
Will do... chasing easter eggs. Ah, should have continued reading, so Diirinka was the patron of the other city (Torglor) ALSO "in the environs of Oryndoll".
So, IF I wanted to keep pursuing them as the (im)mortal rulers of Torglor and Korolnor who then ascend to godhood, they would have to become gods PRIOR to the spawn wars, and being worshipped like "demigod-kings" in their respective cities. Hmmm, going back to that other topic.... IF they gained some means to control deepspawn and usurp the control of their spawn, they could have begun spawning worshippers? I think this in and of itself would have resulted in pissing off the Mordinsamman (especially Moradin if spawn truly DO have souls, as he's the "soulforger".
If these two did find a way to become gods from mortals and ascend here, this would also mean that 3 dwarven gods "ascended" in this general area (Deep Duerra, Diirinka, and Diinkarazan). If Diirinka also forged a new race here, perhaps it was using some secret knowledge of the creator races that the illithids of Oryndoll found.
By the way, after thinking on this a little (the story of Diirinka and Diinkarazan), I think Diinkarazan would make a really good vestige, and having Derro binders and warlocks would be a good addition.
sidenote: The Skull of Alaundo is down there too... interesting. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Jul 2021 22:09:41 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 21:00:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Tom's using (with permission) something George and I wrote but haven't published yet.
--Eric
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
(While many sages point to Vord's Vow—the foreswearing of arcane magic by dwarves of the Northkingdom in -1421 DR following the defeat of dwarven necromancers of Thanardoom—as the reason for the dwarves' general lack of arcane might, some sages of the stout folk suggest this has more to do with Diirinka's exile centuries earlier.)
I do not recognize this one. Is this new lore, or something I have forgotten and need to re-read?
Interesting..... and recently dwarves have had a resurgence of "twins" being born, and those "twins" have much more of a tendency to have a connection to magic...... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 21:33:14
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
First - Did the illithids create OR enslave deepspawn? I'm thinking tentatively let's say yes. I lean towards them creating deepspawn via a twisted ceremorphosis method of beholders OR the beholderkin known as Death Kiss beholders (the ones with mouths on their tentacles for draining blood).
There's another spherical creature with long mouth-tipped tentacles called a Thagar, or Beholder-Eater, from Ed Greenwood's Spelljammer product Lost Ships. They don't have similar properties, though. I don't think I would connect deepspawn to beholders, except maybe as some strange spawn of Great Mother.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Second - Is Phalse of the Alias storyline RELATED somehow to deepspawn? He was a "beholder-like creature, except that his tentacles ended in mouths. Beholders found this disgusting." and he was documented as creating "echoes" of Alias. My first thoughts are that maybe Phalse is an ASCENDED deepspawn which is on the cusp of godhood, who hopes to create worshippers through spawning them and imbuing them with souls. Perhaps he is also being aided in this by Leira (who is acting in a way similar to Talos did with Malyk and Velsharoon... sponsoring Phalse to godhood). There's a lot of ways to spin this, so feel free to throw out a version.
Great Mother has spawned a LOT of unique monsters with tanar'ri and other monsters, besides just the standard beholder-kin. I see Phalse as one of those (Gzemnid is the only one that has become a true deity).
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Originally posted by sleyvas
Third - Are Diirinka and Diinkarazan from Shanatar (specifically the city Korolnor)? Were they ceremorphs created in Oryndoll that survived? Are they spawns made from the same being devoured by a deepspawn? At this time, let's suppose yes on this and suppose that a large population of Korolnor was taken by illithids, and maybe they enacted a "spell" or "psionic power" that caused the dwarves of Korolnor to forget about the dwarves that were taken? Maybe some of them were experimented on, creating the first being that was a "derro".... and this being was fed to a deepspawn to create Diirinka and Diinkarazan (and possibly OTHER spawn just like themselves)?
Wouldn't they have to be from somewhere else first, since each of the subrealms was devoted to a deity on creation IIRC? I'm strongly of the opinion that they should be old, like all the other main-line dwarven deities, and they are said to be Moradin's children like most of the other pantheon.
Dragon #241 includes an article by Roger Moore titled "Legacies of the Suel Imperium" that included PC rules for Derro. In it, it describes how the Suel Imperium on Greyhawk bred the derro as a slave race (which also caused a fracture in the Suel pantheon) about 1800 years ago, which inspired me to describe Diirinka as having spread the knowledge of creating Derro throughout the spheres, knowing that they would eventually free themselves from bondage after being created. I see a similar thing as having happened in the Realms, and I think Diirinka would have found it especially pleasing if either dwarves or illithids were responsible there. I'll note that Roger Moore's article specifically leaves Diirinka's origin as unknown, but the in-world author believes he originated with the experiments (I believe the in-world author is wrong).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Fifth - Is the green crystal sphere mentioned in the myth of the derro brother gods some kind of udoxias or mythal or athora like magic? Could it be something even more advanced like the manifestation of Auppenser itself?
I'm pretty sure that is supposed to be related to Ilsensine, since he manifests as a glowing green brain. Whether it was in a planar or prime underdark I don't think really matters that much.
Jeff
Hmmmm, very interesting this mention of the "Thagar" or "Grimgobbler"/Beholder Eater from Lost Ships, because they very much LOOK like deepspawn are pictured (except more maws and not limbs that are just tentacles). Since the mindflayers of Oryndoll crashed to Toril before making their colony, perhaps they had a captured one on their ship? They would make a good creature to "ceremorph" into a deepspawn, especially since they are described as being able to eat all day, eat dead things, etc.... They are also noted to "cooperate with servant creatures that they can control completely".
Oddly enough this and dwarves' deep were published the same year with similar looking monsters. Guessing Ed had tentacular monsters that eat on the brain... wonder if he was watching little shop of horrors on video?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11744 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2021 : 21:42:47
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| Hmmmm, on the idea of Phalse somehow being related to deepspawn (and thus making all the alias echoes "spawn")..... since Alias "resembles" Cassana.... what happens if a deepspawn eats a clone BEFORE its activated? Just a thought. I guess technically a clone is still "soulless", so anything "replicated" from eating it should be as well. It might have made for an interesting magical quandary which creates a body that is "easier" to link to a implanted soul??? Just a thought. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Derro/Derro Gods/Deepspawn/Spawn Wars
