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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 17:03:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The issue is that those three are all different pantheons. In the Faerūnian pantheon, having Lathander and Amaunator both is redundant.
Helm, Tyr, and Torm are all pretty much redundant - despite slightly different bents on Lawfulness and Knighthood.
Eldath, Silvanus, Mielikki, Lurue.....all kinda Redundant since they're just different aspects of nature and Forest dwellers.
Redundant deities with only a slight difference in ethos and alignment are sort of the Forgotten Realms wheelhouse 
Things become different more when its a god of an "object" versus an "idea". Ideas can be melded more where "I'm the god of this aspect of knowledge, death, destruction, etc....). When it's "the sun" having another god of "the sun" becomes problematic in the same pantheon. However, stating what they're responsible for CAN change that up some (i.e. a god of light versus a god of "the sun"). I think that's where a lot of folks (including myself) were seeing more of a problem. The idea that there might be a god of the "orderly nature of the sun" and another god who is "the god of bright beginnings" and another god who is "the god of the dying of the light, spreading of shadow" or some other variations that focuses on them being a "sun god" in a different way.... I'd find that more palatable, but they need to be presented that way. It can't be that "and Lathander has complete control of the sun" if that's the case.
It's a bit overkill to be honest. I mean splitting hairs and creating a god for each little thing is just too much.
And yet, look at our real world pagan religions from long ago, many of which had hundreds of gods. Heck, look at our real world religions based purely on the "god of the jewish people" and how its splintered into probably more than 100 variants but mostly around the same core concept.
Bear in mind that just because they exist doesn't mean that each god is actively worshipped in every community. Some communities might not have even have heard of some of the gods (outside from the more learned scholars, priests, etc.... who study religion). It could be something LIKE where in the north they primarily worship Lathander, the south areas like Halruaa might favor Amaunator, and areas like Calimshan might see a place for both religions |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 17:10:33
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Things become different more when its a god of an "object" versus an "idea". Ideas can be melded more where "I'm the god of this aspect of knowledge, death, destruction, etc....). When it's "the sun" having another god of "the sun" becomes problematic in the same pantheon. However, stating what they're responsible for CAN change that up some (i.e. a god of light versus a god of "the sun"). I think that's where a lot of folks (including myself) were seeing more of a problem. The idea that there might be a god of the "orderly nature of the sun" and another god who is "the god of bright beginnings" and another god who is "the god of the dying of the light, spreading of shadow" or some other variations that focuses on them being a "sun god" in a different way.... I'd find that more palatable, but they need to be presented that way. It can't be that "and Lathander has complete control of the sun" if that's the case.
Isn't that the premise of the whole Three-Faced Heresy, that Lathander (Dawn), Amaunator (Day), Myrkul (Dusk) were one in the same but simple showed variations of itself? I'm not saying it IS that way, but it's an intriguing concept in terms of drama being played out in the setting.
When you look at the ideals, beliefs, and concepts of both Amaunator and Lathander- they're quite different. Sure they both symboliz the Sun but Lathander puts far more emphasis on dawn, rebirth, new beginnings, enlightenment, etc. Amaunator is far more stern, advocating for kept promises, contracts, and even that political order be kept among the gods. I mean, ones NG and the other LN in Alignment. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 18:36:33
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Isn't also the idea of a "Faerunian" pantheon more a game design thing (make it comprehensive for PCs and players), rather than a concept Faerunians believe in? Not all gods are worshipped everywhere after all, and many areas have their own regional pantheons and regional interpretations that differ a bit from the orthodoxy (Zionel/Gond, Curna/Oghma, Lucha/Selune in the Shining Lands, Bhalla/Chauntea, Khelliara/Mielikki, the Hidden One/Mystra in Rashemen, etc.)
So yeah, I don't see any problem with Amaunator existing as a separate deity to Lathander. It could be quite interesting, they could be rival priesthoods to each other, a bit similar to the relationship of the clergy of Tempus and Garagos (both of whom are gods of war). |
Edited by - deserk on 25 Apr 2021 18:39:51 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 19:21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Isn't that the premise of the whole Three-Faced Heresy, that Lathander (Dawn), Amaunator (Day), Myrkul (Dusk) were one in the same but simple showed variations of itself? I'm not saying it IS that way, but it's an intriguing concept in terms of drama being played out in the setting.
When you look at the ideals, beliefs, and concepts of both Amaunator and Lathander- they're quite different. Sure they both symboliz the Sun but Lathander puts far more emphasis on dawn, rebirth, new beginnings, enlightenment, etc. Amaunator is far more stern, advocating for kept promises, contracts, and even that political order be kept among the gods. I mean, ones NG and the other LN in Alignment.
I've always strongly disliked that Three-Faced sun god idea. Why do different times of day get different deities, but different lunar phases don't? If we're covering different times of day, what about a deity of midnight and another one for just before dawn? If it's all one deity, how can multiple faces be active at the same time? How does the cycle go Good-Neutral-Evil and then back to Good, without any transition? And with Myrkul and Lathander both being younger, this three-faced thing means there was only one face for a long time, and then that one face for some reason decided it was better to split into three.
To me, it's another of those things that is simply more effort than it's worth to try to make sense of it. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 20:22:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Isn't that the premise of the whole Three-Faced Heresy, that Lathander (Dawn), Amaunator (Day), Myrkul (Dusk) were one in the same but simple showed variations of itself? I'm not saying it IS that way, but it's an intriguing concept in terms of drama being played out in the setting.
When you look at the ideals, beliefs, and concepts of both Amaunator and Lathander- they're quite different. Sure they both symboliz the Sun but Lathander puts far more emphasis on dawn, rebirth, new beginnings, enlightenment, etc. Amaunator is far more stern, advocating for kept promises, contracts, and even that political order be kept among the gods. I mean, ones NG and the other LN in Alignment.
I've always strongly disliked that Three-Faced sun god idea. Why do different times of day get different deities, but different lunar phases don't? If we're covering different times of day, what about a deity of midnight and another one for just before dawn? If it's all one deity, how can multiple faces be active at the same time? How does the cycle go Good-Neutral-Evil and then back to Good, without any transition? And with Myrkul and Lathander both being younger, this three-faced thing means there was only one face for a long time, and then that one face for some reason decided it was better to split into three.
It was my understanding that Myrkul was a Netherese deity too, so both of them existed at the same time? I could he wrong tho. But I could certainly see Selūne as a worship of the Moon in the many phases where she is seen and Shar worshipped as the Dark Moon aspect where the moon is obfuscated in Shadow. Or at least a Heresy that pushes that belief. Again, I'm not saying it's right but who's the "true" moon goddess? Selūne or Sehanine Moonbow? Are they one in the same? Are they like Talos and Gruumsh, same deity with different faces to attract more followers?
The BEST part about deities, IMO, is that they really can be whatever the DM wants them to be and in terms of what ppl know, it really is speculative.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To me, it's another of those things that is simply more effort than it's worth to try to make sense of it.
At that point, just use what the books say and go off that, as the work is mostly done for you. Amaunator in 3.5 is a "dead power" that some people can still draw from, as seen in the feat Servant of the Fallen from Lost Empires of Faerūn. Enough ppl take that or join his cause and suddenly, he's not "Fallen" anymore. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 22:35:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The BEST part about deities, IMO, is that they really can be whatever the DM wants them to be and in terms of what ppl know, it really is speculative.
Yep. Especially if you go back in time and want to have some fun with them. For instance, if "Amaunator" were two deities originally (Amon-Ra and At'ar), and were husband and wife.... but maybe Amaunator tried to absorb his wife. By this, I would say that Amon-Ra was Ra from the Mulhorandi pantheon forcing his way into the Netherese pantheon. Maybe she turned on him, and offered herself to Kozah if he would destroy her husband (as well as another potential rival in Utu), and Kozah offered to sponsor Gruumsh into this world via his orc priests in the orcgate war. Thus was Ra killed and his "aspect" as Amon-Ra becomes a vestige. At'ar may have continued on using their combined name of Amaunator. Then Lathander pulled further shenanigans. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 01:20:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The issue is that those three are all different pantheons. In the Faerūnian pantheon, having Lathander and Amaunator both is redundant.
Helm, Tyr, and Torm are all pretty much redundant - despite slightly different bents on Lawfulness and Knighthood.
Eldath, Silvanus, Mielikki, Lurue.....all kinda Redundant since they're just different aspects of nature and Forest dwellers.
Redundant deities with only a slight difference in ethos and alignment are sort of the Forgotten Realms wheelhouse
Things become different more when its a god of an "object" versus an "idea". Ideas can be melded more where "I'm the god of this aspect of knowledge, death, destruction, etc....). When it's "the sun" having another god of "the sun" becomes problematic in the same pantheon. However, stating what they're responsible for CAN change that up some (i.e. a god of light versus a god of "the sun"). I think that's where a lot of folks (including myself) were seeing more of a problem. The idea that there might be a god of the "orderly nature of the sun" and another god who is "the god of bright beginnings" and another god who is "the god of the dying of the light, spreading of shadow" or some other variations that focuses on them being a "sun god" in a different way.... I'd find that more palatable, but they need to be presented that way. It can't be that "and Lathander has complete control of the sun" if that's the case.
It's a bit overkill to be honest. I mean splitting hairs and creating a god for each little thing is just too much.
This is realistic, actually. If anything, there may be too FEW gods in the Forgotten Realms (taking into account how there are more sapient species/races than just "Human").
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Isn't also the idea of a "Faerunian" pantheon more a game design thing (make it comprehensive for PCs and players), rather than a concept Faerunians believe in? Not all gods are worshipped everywhere after all, and many areas have their own regional pantheons and regional interpretations that differ a bit from the orthodoxy (Zionel/Gond, Curna/Oghma, Lucha/Selune in the Shining Lands, Bhalla/Chauntea, Khelliara/Mielikki, the Hidden One/Mystra in Rashemen, etc.)
So yeah, I don't see any problem with Amaunator existing as a separate deity to Lathander. It could be quite interesting, they could be rival priesthoods to each other, a bit similar to the relationship of the clergy of Tempus and Garagos (both of whom are gods of war).
The situation becomes even fuzzier when you consider that races can worship gods outside their respective racial pantheons and even receive spells in return. Faiths and Avatars - for example - explicitly makes mention of elves becoming Specialty Priests of Sune (she is typically regarded as a "human god"). |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 05:25:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha
To remain in topic: Always fascinated by the Imaskari and Jhaamadth, a real shame it's always Netheril when there have been two others incredibly magic powerful empires in the history of Faerun that we know...almost nothing about.
I have a particular fascination with Jhaamdath, myself.
I'd love to find out that somewhere on Toril there was a Jhaamdathi equivalent of Halruaa -- a group of psionicists decided they didn't like the direction the nation was going in, and found themselves a new home, elsewhere, where they have quietly lived ever since.
I really liked the idea that the massive terrain changes to the Vilhon Wilds exposed Jhaamdathi ruins that somehow awakened the psionic potential of folks nearby. The shardminds also felt like a natural fit, for some kind of lost created race.
The theory that 4e floated about psionic abilities (that their manifestation was, in part, an "immune response" from reality to resist aberrations) made the nearby threat of aboleths seem extra fun paired wih it. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 05:28:24
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Tying into all this Amaunator talk, I really was enamored with the idea of Shadovar nobles being drawn away from Shar by their ancestral sun god's return; the idea of some decadent evil princeling becoming a "heretic" of light and justice is just the right kind of cheesy for me.
(I never liked Lathandar; sue me!) |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 06:10:29
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Tying into all this Amaunator talk, I really was enamored with the idea of Shadovar nobles being drawn away from Shar by their ancestral sun god's return; the idea of some decadent evil princeling becoming a "heretic" of light and justice is just the right kind of cheesy for me.
(I never liked Lathandar; sue me!)
Lathander forgives you  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2021 : 14:42:21
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The BEST part about deities, IMO, is that they really can be whatever the DM wants them to be and in terms of what ppl know, it really is speculative.
Yep. Especially if you go back in time and want to have some fun with them. For instance, if "Amaunator" were two deities originally (Amon-Ra and At'ar), and were husband and wife.... but maybe Amaunator tried to absorb his wife. By this, I would say that Amon-Ra was Ra from the Mulhorandi pantheon forcing his way into the Netherese pantheon. Maybe she turned on him, and offered herself to Kozah if he would destroy her husband (as well as another potential rival in Utu), and Kozah offered to sponsor Gruumsh into this world via his orc priests in the orcgate war. Thus was Ra killed and his "aspect" as Amon-Ra becomes a vestige. At'ar may have continued on using their combined name of Amaunator. Then Lathander pulled further shenanigans.
That's a great take on the lore there, I might be definitely stealing that |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 00:52:04
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha
To remain in topic: Always fascinated by the Imaskari and Jhaamadth, a real shame it's always Netheril when there have been two others incredibly magic powerful empires in the history of Faerun that we know...almost nothing about.
I have a particular fascination with Jhaamdath, myself.
I'd love to find out that somewhere on Toril there was a Jhaamdathi equivalent of Halruaa -- a group of psionicists decided they didn't like the direction the nation was going in, and found themselves a new home, elsewhere, where they have quietly lived ever since.
I really liked the idea that the massive terrain changes to the Vilhon Wilds exposed Jhaamdathi ruins that somehow awakened the psionic potential of folks nearby. The shardminds also felt like a natural fit, for some kind of lost created race.
The theory that 4e floated about psionic abilities (that their manifestation was, in part, an "immune response" from reality to resist aberrations) made the nearby threat of aboleths seem extra fun paired wih it.
That's an interesting idea.... almost like "mutants" with psionics is caused by some kind of "radiation"..... perhaps from a udoxias that awakens it... and maybe people don't truly understand exactly what a udoxias did. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 00:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The BEST part about deities, IMO, is that they really can be whatever the DM wants them to be and in terms of what ppl know, it really is speculative.
Yep. Especially if you go back in time and want to have some fun with them. For instance, if "Amaunator" were two deities originally (Amon-Ra and At'ar), and were husband and wife.... but maybe Amaunator tried to absorb his wife. By this, I would say that Amon-Ra was Ra from the Mulhorandi pantheon forcing his way into the Netherese pantheon. Maybe she turned on him, and offered herself to Kozah if he would destroy her husband (as well as another potential rival in Utu), and Kozah offered to sponsor Gruumsh into this world via his orc priests in the orcgate war. Thus was Ra killed and his "aspect" as Amon-Ra becomes a vestige. At'ar may have continued on using their combined name of Amaunator. Then Lathander pulled further shenanigans.
That's a great take on the lore there, I might be definitely stealing that
Steal away. It does nicely tie in the whole Gruumsh/Talos "ties" that have been mentioned, though via Kozah instead. There might even be some linkage in this involvement as to why "Kozah" with two eyes becomes "Talos" with one eye (some form of sacrifice to give godly power?) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Your favorite Forgotten Realms potentialities?
