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Kylia Quilor
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Mar 2021 : 15:27:59
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Making sense of Ao is often easier said than done, IMO, but regardless, the Shadow Weave does seem like a pretty blatant violation of Mystra's portfolio on the part of Shar.
So my question is - does it ever get mentioned in some bit of lore that I've missed (and I've tried looking, but its not as if I have every piece of lore memorized) or did it ever get answered by one of the writers in some question somewhere (also tried to look, but failing to find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist) why Shar never got punished for creating the Shadow Weave? Or am I just misunderstanding Ao's rules about portfolios and doing your divine job, etc?
And related to the above question - while I can't see it happening under normal circumstances in the Realms, is there really anything stopping say, Lathandar and Selune from making like... a 'Solar Weave'? I.e. their own version of the Weave that's like the Shadow Weave, but opposite?
It just seems somewhat odd to me that out of all the Gods throughout history, Shar is the only one who ever created her own independent source of arcane magic, and that she got away with it, and I was curious if there's any lore that expanded on how it happened.
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Halisstra Melarn Deserved Better |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11831 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2021 : 17:03:04
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Lolth tried to create a "demon weave"
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Demon_Weave
As to why Ao allowed it.... I believe we all have too simple and too honorable a view of Ao. I believe that Ao allows all manner of shenanigans to go on, like an absentee parent, and then when he gets annoyed he starts slapping people around.... and then people try to make sense of it.... and he makes pronouncements that don't reveal that he's half drunk and just ultimately trying to tell the other gods "shut up and leave me alone, I got other stuff I want to do". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Mar 2021 17:06:18 |
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Kylia Quilor
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2021 : 17:19:43
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Huh. Interesting. TIL. So in theory, it could happen. Shar may have gotten away with it in a way Lloth didn't as much because she did it more secretly and first, then.
And that explanation of Ao makes about as much sense as anything else, maybe even more. |
Halisstra Melarn Deserved Better |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2021 : 17:43:10
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I think it was a multifold thing...
1) It wasn't upsetting the Balance enough for Ao to pay attention to
2) The Weave is Mystra's responsibility. Challenges to her territory are also her responsibility.
Remember, Ao stays out of the way, so long as the deities are doing their jobs... And he doesn't interfere, at least that we've seen, when it comes to deities trying to expand their influence at the expense of another. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2021 : 18:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lolth tried to create a "demon weave"
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Demon_Weave
As to why Ao allowed it.... I believe we all have too simple and too honorable a view of Ao. I believe that Ao allows all manner of shenanigans to go on, like an absentee parent, and then when he gets annoyed he starts slapping people around.... and then people try to make sense of it.... and he makes pronouncements that don't reveal that he's half drunk and just ultimately trying to tell the other gods "shut up and leave me alone, I got other stuff I want to do. There's a raid tonight in WoW and I need to run to the store to pick up some Mt. Dew and burritos".
Fixed.  |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11831 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2021 : 18:51:28
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lolth tried to create a "demon weave"
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Demon_Weave
As to why Ao allowed it.... I believe we all have too simple and too honorable a view of Ao. I believe that Ao allows all manner of shenanigans to go on, like an absentee parent, and then when he gets annoyed he starts slapping people around.... and then people try to make sense of it.... and he makes pronouncements that don't reveal that he's half drunk and just ultimately trying to tell the other gods "shut up and leave me alone, I got other stuff I want to do. There's a raid tonight in WoW and I need to run to the store to pick up some Mt. Dew and burritos".
Fixed.
Do the Dew! |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2021 : 01:01:46
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Ao really stays out of things "day to day" as the gods do have free will: Ao does not micro manage and nit pick.
The Shadow Weave is "made of the places in between the Weave or in it's shadow or something like that" So that does fall under both "Shadows" and "Secrets" for Shar.
I'd guess other gods might create Weaves...but it must be very hard and risky. So they might not have the power or want to take the risk.
It's possible many gods made Weaves in the past, or tried and failed. But this is unknown. |
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Kylia Quilor
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2021 : 02:08:25
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Ao really stays out of things "day to day" as the gods do have free will: Ao does not micro manage and nit pick.
The Shadow Weave is "made of the places in between the Weave or in it's shadow or something like that" So that does fall under both "Shadows" and "Secrets" for Shar.
I'd guess other gods might create Weaves...but it must be very hard and risky. So they might not have the power or want to take the risk.
It's possible many gods made Weaves in the past, or tried and failed. But this is unknown.
True, Ao doesn't micromanage, but he does have rules about how the gods have to do their jobs and can't go stepping on eachothers portfolios (such as those rules that a pantheon can only have one god of a given thing). And like I said, in some ways, Shar creating the Shadow weave seems a pretty blatant intrusion into Mystra's portfolio, which is why the topic was on my mind to ask about. |
Halisstra Melarn Deserved Better |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2021 : 04:23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kylia Quilor
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Ao really stays out of things "day to day" as the gods do have free will: Ao does not micro manage and nit pick.
The Shadow Weave is "made of the places in between the Weave or in it's shadow or something like that" So that does fall under both "Shadows" and "Secrets" for Shar.
I'd guess other gods might create Weaves...but it must be very hard and risky. So they might not have the power or want to take the risk.
It's possible many gods made Weaves in the past, or tried and failed. But this is unknown.
True, Ao doesn't micromanage, but he does have rules about how the gods have to do their jobs and can't go stepping on eachothers portfolios (such as those rules that a pantheon can only have one god of a given thing). And like I said, in some ways, Shar creating the Shadow weave seems a pretty blatant intrusion into Mystra's portfolio, which is why the topic was on my mind to ask about.
Why? She wasn't directly affecting the Weave, and there are other gods of magic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2021 : 07:22:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Kylia Quilor
True, Ao doesn't micromanage, but he does have rules about how the gods have to do their jobs and can't go stepping on eachothers portfolios (such as those rules that a pantheon can only have one god of a given thing). And like I said, in some ways, Shar creating the Shadow weave seems a pretty blatant intrusion into Mystra's portfolio, which is why the topic was on my mind to ask about.
But I think it's ok for one deity to take away someone else's portfolio? |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2021 : 11:42:13
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| Shar killing Mystra to take the magic portfolio means that there's still someone with the magic portfolio, it's just not Mystra anymore. What would have AO coming down like an angry avalanche would be things like Talos not blowing up stuff in favor of, I dunno, knitting or making sandcastles, or Corellon growing a beard or Muradin not having a Scottish accent. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11831 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2021 : 13:06:06
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For all we know too, what Mystryl/Mystra owned may not have originally have been "all magical mysteries". By that I mean.... Auppenser.... what if originally psionics had been under another god entirely, and she forcibly took over, and that's why she sent him asleep. Maybe she was "waking him up again" because someone like Savras foretold her fall coming, and while she knew she couldn't stop it, she also knew she could reboot herself.... and meanwhile, someone like Auppenser could help keep psionics and other "mind magics" stable... someone like Savras could keep divination magics stable.... someone like Leira could keep illusions and "mind lies"/enchantments going.... someone like Velsharoon could keep the "dark magics" like necromancy and conjuration going... someone like Malyk could keep wild and destructive magics going.... someone like Karsus could keep tranformative magics going... someone like Deneir could step in and keep the idea of magic in words, spellbooks, and runes going... someone like the Red Knight and/or Helm could step up and help with keeping abjuration magic going...
Or maybe some or all of those gods went to Abeir in order to boot a weave there while the humans who were transferred there were threatened by tyrannical dragon overlords and insane primordials.
Maybe some of those who "seemingly didn't die" here... such as Velsharoon... were in fact other deities, like Mellifleur, that Velsharoon had taken the portfolios of.
Maybe the "shadow of the weave" was already extended into Abeir, and Shar losing control over it gave a chance to unify them both, as the mystical realm of dweomerheart detached itself from Toril and attached to Abeir (appearing to "destruct" to all the all-knowing sages of Toril since it would seemingly no longer exist in their reality).
Maybe an old god like the Simbul, who was the "moment of choice" or fate, could be awakened again to take over the power of the "momentary god" that was Karsus (who was tied to the shadow weave) by helping him change his fate. The Simbul was known as "Yuir goddess of the moment of choice, the edge, the space between the now and the future, what is and is not, the power of balance embodied in the point of decision where fate is determined intuitively without reason or knowledge". Maybe part of "the returned Mystra" absorbing the spirit of the Simbul held an aspect of the Simbul "making a choice to join her fate" as a mirror of her namesake the Simbul. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kylia Quilor
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2021 : 14:01:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kylia Quilor
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Ao really stays out of things "day to day" as the gods do have free will: Ao does not micro manage and nit pick.
The Shadow Weave is "made of the places in between the Weave or in it's shadow or something like that" So that does fall under both "Shadows" and "Secrets" for Shar.
I'd guess other gods might create Weaves...but it must be very hard and risky. So they might not have the power or want to take the risk.
It's possible many gods made Weaves in the past, or tried and failed. But this is unknown.
True, Ao doesn't micromanage, but he does have rules about how the gods have to do their jobs and can't go stepping on eachothers portfolios (such as those rules that a pantheon can only have one god of a given thing). And like I said, in some ways, Shar creating the Shadow weave seems a pretty blatant intrusion into Mystra's portfolio, which is why the topic was on my mind to ask about.
Why? She wasn't directly affecting the Weave, and there are other gods of magic.
But none of those other gods control the Weave. And correct me if I'm wrong, but when Midnight first became Mystra, she actually did try to cut evil people and evil gods off from the Weave until the other gods made her knock it out at the same time they deemed cyric innocent by reason of insanity.
And even now, Mystra is explicitly the one with the ability to cut people off from the Weave, she just isn't allowed to do it that much anymore. Corellon can't stop people from using magic just by willing it, AFAIK, and Velsharoon can't just stop people from doing necromancy without his will either, again, AFAIK
I didn't say that Ao *had* to stop it, I was just curious if there was ever an explicit lore answer somewhere about why he didn't, because it seemed to me to be the sort of thing he sometimes seems to bother with.
People have pointed out various theories and explanations, which make a great deal of sense, and could very well be the 'real' answer (in sofar as a real answer can actually apply to something fictional and undefined like this). I was merely explaining why I was wondering and how it wasn't an assumption of Ao micromanaging, because it never was. |
Halisstra Melarn Deserved Better |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2021 : 22:22:26
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Well, if you want to get into Deep Realms Lore: The Elves do have some mysterious unknown source of magic, maybe an Elf Weave. Back during the Time of Troubles it was noted, in books written by Ed Greenwood, that elven magic never went "wild".
Want to get just as deep: the Weave IS Mystra.
You might also note the rule of "one god per thing per pantheon" is not exactly a hard rule. But then so is what a pantheon is. And Toril has a LOT of gods.
And another rule is "survival of the fittest": gods are free to steal portfolios and even kill each other. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2021 : 22:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kylia Quilor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why? She wasn't directly affecting the Weave, and there are other gods of magic.
But none of those other gods control the Weave. And correct me if I'm wrong, but when Midnight first became Mystra, she actually did try to cut evil people and evil gods off from the Weave until the other gods made her knock it out at the same time they deemed cyric innocent by reason of insanity.
And even now, Mystra is explicitly the one with the ability to cut people off from the Weave, she just isn't allowed to do it that much anymore. Corellon can't stop people from using magic just by willing it, AFAIK, and Velsharoon can't just stop people from doing necromancy without his will either, again, AFAIK
I didn't say that Ao *had* to stop it, I was just curious if there was ever an explicit lore answer somewhere about why he didn't, because it seemed to me to be the sort of thing he sometimes seems to bother with.
People have pointed out various theories and explanations, which make a great deal of sense, and could very well be the 'real' answer (in sofar as a real answer can actually apply to something fictional and undefined like this). I was merely explaining why I was wondering and how it wasn't an assumption of Ao micromanaging, because it never was.
I'm still not seeing why you think Ao would have stopped Shar. Shar was not affecting the Weave. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Mar 2021 22:52:43 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2021 : 22:45:15
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| Shar was The Dark Gothic Hottie during 3e. Shadows are Kewl. Weave = meh, Shadow Weave = SEXY!!! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11831 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2021 : 23:56:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Shar was The Dark Gothic Hottie during 3e. Shadows are Kewl. Weave = meh, Shadow Weave = SEXY!!!
Demon Weave = STD's!!! |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kylia Quilor
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2021 : 18:36:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kylia Quilor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why? She wasn't directly affecting the Weave, and there are other gods of magic.
But none of those other gods control the Weave. And correct me if I'm wrong, but when Midnight first became Mystra, she actually did try to cut evil people and evil gods off from the Weave until the other gods made her knock it out at the same time they deemed cyric innocent by reason of insanity.
And even now, Mystra is explicitly the one with the ability to cut people off from the Weave, she just isn't allowed to do it that much anymore. Corellon can't stop people from using magic just by willing it, AFAIK, and Velsharoon can't just stop people from doing necromancy without his will either, again, AFAIK
I didn't say that Ao *had* to stop it, I was just curious if there was ever an explicit lore answer somewhere about why he didn't, because it seemed to me to be the sort of thing he sometimes seems to bother with.
People have pointed out various theories and explanations, which make a great deal of sense, and could very well be the 'real' answer (in sofar as a real answer can actually apply to something fictional and undefined like this). I was merely explaining why I was wondering and how it wasn't an assumption of Ao micromanaging, because it never was.
I'm still not seeing why you think Ao would have stopped Shar. Shar was not affecting the Weave.
I've explained the thought process that, when I posted the thread, made sense to me repeatedly. |
Halisstra Melarn Deserved Better |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2021 : 19:35:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Kylia Quilor
I've explained the thought process that, when I posted the thread, made sense to me repeatedly.
I'm not seeing an answer to my question, though. Mystra's portfolio is the Weave, and the creation of the Shadow Weave did not affect the Weave. So I'm not seeing why Ao should punish Shar for the creation of the Shadow Weave. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2021 : 19:52:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kylia Quilor
Making sense of Ao is often easier said than done, IMO, but regardless, the Shadow Weave does seem like a pretty blatant violation of Mystra's portfolio on the part of Shar.
So my question is - does it ever get mentioned in some bit of lore that I've missed (and I've tried looking, but its not as if I have every piece of lore memorized) or did it ever get answered by one of the writers in some question somewhere (also tried to look, but failing to find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist) why Shar never got punished for creating the Shadow Weave? Or am I just misunderstanding Ao's rules about portfolios and doing your divine job, etc?
And related to the above question - while I can't see it happening under normal circumstances in the Realms, is there really anything stopping say, Lathandar and Selune from making like... a 'Solar Weave'? I.e. their own version of the Weave that's like the Shadow Weave, but opposite?
It just seems somewhat odd to me that out of all the Gods throughout history, Shar is the only one who ever created her own independent source of arcane magic, and that she got away with it, and I was curious if there's any lore that expanded on how it happened.
I think your issue is with Magic being the Portfolio of Mystra, that no other deity can control magic.
A few points
The Weave is not the only source of Magic, it is the easiest to use so most in the Realms use it. Ed Greenwood has often spoke of other magics in the Realm. It is less certain that if Mystra can even use those others magic however, her portfolio includes to promote the use of Magic. In that sense she should support the Shadow Weave because it increases the use of magic.
Corellon Larethian is the god of Elven Magic, Music, Arts, Crafts, Poetry, and Warfare. AO has no problem with this.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2021 : 00:55:46
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| Corellon is perhaps not the best example, being a racial god and a pantheon head. Mystra is a local administrator that simply governs the use of magic in Realmspace, while Corellon watches over all elven magic in all crystal spheres where the Seldarine are worshipped. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2021 : 21:02:53
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| Ao was not an original part of the Realms. Crossing edition streams, I like to view him as the primal sprit of Realmspace/FR crsytal sphere. If you want to play with his ball, you have to ask, but he doesn't much ask how you play with it. |
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Why did Ao Allow the Shadow Weave?
