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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 03:50:31
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| Well, eternal punishment doesn't seems out of sense when there are actually evil-aligned gods doing evil things. But eternal punishment should be that: something evil, something the good gods should be opposing to. If the lore show me gods opposing the Wall and trying to save the souls of the disbelievers out of goodness (saving someone from a terrible fate is something good, after all), then I would have no problem with the Wall. My problem with the Wall is that the canon has it that all gods, even the so-called good ones, accept the Wall and say nothing about it. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 05:28:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, eternal punishment doesn't seems out of sense when there are actually evil-aligned gods doing evil things. But eternal punishment should be that: something evil, something the good gods should be opposing to. If the lore show me gods opposing the Wall and trying to save the souls of the disbelievers out of goodness (saving someone from a terrible fate is something good, after all), then I would have no problem with the Wall. My problem with the Wall is that the canon has it that all gods, even the so-called good ones, accept the Wall and say nothing about it.
Where does it actually say that the good deities accept the Wall and say nothing about it? |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 05:37:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
My problem with the Wall is that the canon has it that all gods, even the so-called good ones, accept the Wall and say nothing about it.
Is it really canonical that the gods "say nothing about it?" As far as I know, the gods haven't been treated in great detail -- we know a lot about their avatars and their churches, but very little about their thoughts and musings. The only book I've read where the gods take center stage, Prince of Lies, plays up their limitations quite a bit. The way they're presented in that book, the gods are as much trapped by cosmic laws as their worshippers are. In which case, they might not have any power to dismantle a seemingly primordial creation like the Wall. For all I know, the Wall is just as permanent and indestructible as the Nine Hells or the Abyss. |
Edited by - HighOne on 11 Jan 2022 05:38:15 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 15:02:56
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
My problem with the Wall is that the canon has it that all gods, even the so-called good ones, accept the Wall and say nothing about it.
Is it really canonical that the gods "say nothing about it?" As far as I know, the gods haven't been treated in great detail -- we know a lot about their avatars and their churches, but very little about their thoughts and musings. The only book I've read where the gods take center stage, Prince of Lies, plays up their limitations quite a bit. The way they're presented in that book, the gods are as much trapped by cosmic laws as their worshippers are. In which case, they might not have any power to dismantle a seemingly primordial creation like the Wall. For all I know, the Wall is just as permanent and indestructible as the Nine Hells or the Abyss.
It doesn't have to be permanent and indestructible -- it's part of the domain of the deity of the dead. That deity has final say over who goes into the Wall or comes out, so assuming there's no deeper reason for its existence, then they could do away with it at a whim.
But since it's part of that deity's domain, it's their business. Deities may complain, but the Wall falls into Death's internal affairs, and each deity is the sole authority of their internal affairs.
There's no evidence I'm aware of that indicates the Wall is anything other than something some prior deity decided was a good idea -- but I personally like the idea. I once suggested that the slow dissolution of souls in the Wall acted as a power source, maintaining the containment of something even the gods feared. If this was the case -- or it if was Ao's decree or some other thing outside of the whims of Death that caused the Wall to be created, then I'd really like to know what changed to make it no longer necessary. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 15:05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where does it actually say that the good deities accept the Wall and say nothing about it?
There is no source saying they do something about it, not even complaint. If you do nothing about something then you're accepting that something.
In NWN2, Kelemvor even said some shit about the Wall being a compact between gods and mortals, when the actual origin of the Wall was that Myrkul erected it because YOLO. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Jan 2022 15:06:03 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 15:43:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I once suggested that the slow dissolution of souls in the Wall acted as a power source, maintaining the containment of something even the gods feared. If this was the case -- or it if was Ao's decree or some other thing outside of the whims of Death that caused the Wall to be created, then I'd really like to know what changed to make it no longer necessary.
Since you were the one who proposed this idea, I guess is up to you to decide what changed. Because, as far as I'm aware, officially the Wall was just there to punish PCs and NPCs for worshipping no god. Even the creator of the concept say it. There is no other reason. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 15:44:11
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Myrkul, in that very same game, declares that he created the Wall, and nobody disagrees with him. Kelemvor's problem was that he couldn't tear down the Wall due to it being a judgement of his predecessor - and yes, Myrkul was well within his rights to create the Wall. Myrkul's problem was that he got too big for his britches, not that he was mismanaging his office as Lord of the Dead. There are of course deities who disagreed on how Myrkul managed his job, but for the most part, he wasn't actually violating any kind of deific code of conduct with regards to how he ran his divine realm and carried out his job. He was serious enough about his job that he arranged for the deaths of those clerics who refused to tend to the dead during a plague.
And that's just Myrkul; everyone forgets that Jergal had the jobs of all the Dead Three - his underworld wasn't exactly cushy either.
Basically, the good deities probably hated how Myrkul ran Bone Castle, but couldn't actually do anything about it becuase he was still doing his job properly. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 16:07:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I once suggested that the slow dissolution of souls in the Wall acted as a power source, maintaining the containment of something even the gods feared.
I suspect you're talking about some tangible threat like a powerful monster, but that thing the gods fear could be faithlessness itself. Because deities receive their power through worship (as established in Faiths & Avatars), I think it's fair to say that the gods have a vested interest in promoting faith and punishing faithlessness. In that sense, the Wall does serve as a containment measure: it halts the spread of faithlessness, a tangible threat to the gods and their power.
Also, a lot of posters are citing NWN2 as a source, but are video games generally considered canon? I always assumed not. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 16:15:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where does it actually say that the good deities accept the Wall and say nothing about it?
There is no source saying they do something about it, not even complaint. If you do nothing about something then you're accepting that something.
But that's like saying that people in Turmish don't have toes because no sourcebook says they do. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 16:24:25
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Also, a lot of posters are citing NWN2 as a source, but are video games generally considered canon? I always assumed not.
The answer generally seems to be "it depends" - sometimes the games might get references as overarching events that occur but no detail on the specifics because every player will do things differently. Or, if there is an associated novel, then the novel events may be how it is considered to have happened (as was the case for the Baldur's Gate games, including the "canon" Bhaalspawn as Abdel Adrian). |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 16:26:00
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Myrkul, in that very same game, declares that he created the Wall, and nobody disagrees with him. Kelemvor's problem was that he couldn't tear down the Wall due to it being a judgement of his predecessor - and yes, Myrkul was well within his rights to create the Wall. Myrkul's problem was that he got too big for his britches, not that he was mismanaging his office as Lord of the Dead. There are of course deities who disagreed on how Myrkul managed his job, but for the most part, he wasn't actually violating any kind of deific code of conduct with regards to how he ran his divine realm and carried out his job. He was serious enough about his job that he arranged for the deaths of those clerics who refused to tend to the dead during a plague.
And that's just Myrkul; everyone forgets that Jergal had the jobs of all the Dead Three - his underworld wasn't exactly cushy either.
Basically, the good deities probably hated how Myrkul ran Bone Castle, but couldn't actually do anything about it becuase he was still doing his job properly.
Yeah, sure. The point is the Wall, not Myrkul's job. Because Disbelieving has nothing to do with the Death portfolio. So, this was just Myrkul deciding for himself what to do with the souls of the Faithless, that according to Planescape just wander about (since no god accept them in their domains) and dissipate into nothingness in a painless way. Myrkul just decided they had to suffer for an eternity for whatever reason (his own amusement, it seems), and no other god said anything about it. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Jan 2022 16:26:58 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 16:52:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
and no other god said anything about it.
You can't know. Look, I'm all with you that the lack of anything shown about this matter is bad, but as others pointed out, you can't know what's not in a sourcebook. As HighOne says, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
PS: judging people was within Myrkul's portfolio at the time; since no god has a right to claim a faithless soul, I guess it was well within his sphere of influence to decide what to do with them. LoB's point was that since Myrkul was doing his job, other deities didn't have any right to interfere or complain, no matter what they thought about Myrkul's planned fate for the faithless souls.
Either way, it's kinda a moot point now, because the wall is gone. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 Jan 2022 16:54:43 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 18:52:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Myrkul, in that very same game, declares that he created the Wall, and nobody disagrees with him. Kelemvor's problem was that he couldn't tear down the Wall due to it being a judgement of his predecessor - and yes, Myrkul was well within his rights to create the Wall. Myrkul's problem was that he got too big for his britches, not that he was mismanaging his office as Lord of the Dead. There are of course deities who disagreed on how Myrkul managed his job, but for the most part, he wasn't actually violating any kind of deific code of conduct with regards to how he ran his divine realm and carried out his job. He was serious enough about his job that he arranged for the deaths of those clerics who refused to tend to the dead during a plague.
And that's just Myrkul; everyone forgets that Jergal had the jobs of all the Dead Three - his underworld wasn't exactly cushy either.
Basically, the good deities probably hated how Myrkul ran Bone Castle, but couldn't actually do anything about it becuase he was still doing his job properly.
Yeah, sure. The point is the Wall, not Myrkul's job. Because Disbelieving has nothing to do with the Death portfolio. So, this was just Myrkul deciding for himself what to do with the souls of the Faithless, that according to Planescape just wander about (since no god accept them in their domains) and dissipate into nothingness in a painless way. Myrkul just decided they had to suffer for an eternity for whatever reason (his own amusement, it seems), and no other god said anything about it.
Iirc (mind you, I don't know much about Planescape), those who are faithless don't dissipate--they just exist on the margins of the plane for a while, and have to work to earn their place. It is those who don't believe in having a soul that dissipate, as it is essentially not believing in your own existence. I am recalling this from On Hallowed Ground, and all my D&D stuff is currently in a storage container (I have kind of distanced myself from it for a while, other than coming here now and then, Reddit, and a couple of streams on Twitch), so I could be misremembering, and again, I am not that familiar with Planescape, but I seem to remember reading that there was a difference in fate of those who were Faithless and those who didn't believe they had a soul.
I would argue that dissipation isn't a great fate, either, even if it is painless, as you're being denied existence, but I can also agree that being Faithless in a world where deities are undeniably real is kind of...silly. You don't have to have a priest's level of devotion to avoid the Wall. Maybe you whisper a prayer to Tymora for luck, or pray to Chauntea for a bountiful harvest. I agree the Wall is not great, but it's not that hard to avoid.
Even though sources don't explicitly say whether deities are for or against the Wall, most probably don't like it. Myrkul may derive a perverse pleasure from it, but deities want souls; they don't want them to go unclaimed or be labelled as Faithless. So they are probably just as upset by the Wall, but are unable to do anything about it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 11 Jan 2022 19:23:00 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 19:34:31
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Iirc (mind you, I don't know much about Planescape), those who are faithless don't dissipate--they just exist on the margins of the plane for a while, and have to work to earn their place.
If what you say is true, then the Wall is even more awful. Basically, tantamount to those people who kill homeless IRL... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Jan 2022 19:35:38 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 21:08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Iirc (mind you, I don't know much about Planescape), those who are faithless don't dissipate--they just exist on the margins of the plane for a while, and have to work to earn their place.
If what you say is true, then the Wall is even more awful. Basically, tantamount to those people who kill homeless IRL...
Not to bash CorellonsDevout but their recollection is incomplete. Even discounting the fact that Planescape was built as probably the most unreliably narrated of the settings (so taking obscure info from there and abstracting to the Realms is a real stretch), the passages dealing with the afterlife in On Hallowed Ground paint a different picture.
I'm not going to copy/quote the full thing but I'm going to cite page numbers here for the following points.
1) People who don't believe that there is an afterlife dissipate. They don't believe in their own souls so they just cease to exist on death. [page 28, last paragraph];
2) People (ie. not extraplanar beings like angels, devils, demons, ethereal juggernauts, ...) that die end up on the Outer plane that more closely matched their alignment and belief system, if they happened to worship a Power (Planescape-speak for deities and other stuff of similar caliber) they end up in that Power's domain [page 29, second paragraph of the section "From here to there"];
3) People's souls ultimate goal is to merge with their ideal, be it the essence of the Outer Plane they ended up in or their patron deity. This might lead to an evolution and transformation of the soul in several stages but it ends up with merger [page 30, "The urge to merge" section];
4) Souls that start closer in belief to their ideal merge/evolve faster because their belief guides them in one of a miriad paths towards the evolution/merger. So-called "faithless" souls are left with no guidance and no hint at what to do and fumble until they find a way to evolve/merge [page 31, "Degrees of devotion" section]
So in Planescape lore a faithless goes to the Outer Planes regardless, in Forgotten Realms lore a faithless is bound to the whims of the ruling God of Death. That's it.
If anything, it seems the whole Wall setup is just a scam from Myrkul to get a tiny fraction more souls on his domain instead of releasing them to the wider planes.
LordofBones already explained quite well why gods didn't get involved. He should know, he built the thing! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2022 : 21:24:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Iirc (mind you, I don't know much about Planescape), those who are faithless don't dissipate--they just exist on the margins of the plane for a while, and have to work to earn their place.
If what you say is true, then the Wall is even more awful. Basically, tantamount to those people who kill homeless IRL...
Not to bash CorellonsDevout but their recollection is incomplete. Even discounting the fact that Planescape was built as probably the most unreliably narrated of the settings (so taking obscure info from there and abstracting to the Realms is a real stretch), the passages dealing with the afterlife in On Hallowed Ground paint a different picture.
I'm not going to copy/quote the full thing but I'm going to cite page numbers here for the following points.
1) People who don't believe that there is an afterlife dissipate. They don't believe in their own souls so they just cease to exist on death. [page 28, last paragraph];
2) People (ie. not extraplanar beings like angels, devils, demons, ethereal juggernauts, ...) that die end up on the Outer plane that more closely matched their alignment and belief system, if they happened to worship a Power (Planescape-speak for deities and other stuff of similar caliber) they end up in that Power's domain [page 29, second paragraph of the section "From here to there"];
3) People's souls ultimate goal is to merge with their ideal, be it the essence of the Outer Plane they ended up in or their patron deity. This might lead to an evolution and transformation of the soul in several stages but it ends up with merger [page 30, "The urge to merge" section];
4) Souls that start closer in belief to their ideal merge/evolve faster because their belief guides them in one of a miriad paths towards the evolution/merger. So-called "faithless" souls are left with no guidance and no hint at what to do and fumble until they find a way to evolve/merge [page 31, "Degrees of devotion" section]
So in Planescape lore a faithless goes to the Outer Planes regardless, in Forgotten Realms lore a faithless is bound to the whims of the ruling God of Death. That's it.
Points 1 and 4 were essentially what I said in regards to Planescape, as I was making the comparison between those labelled faithless in FR and those who were such in Planescape (at least according to On Hallowed Ground). I didn't mention the other points because my comment was about the fate of the faithles in particular.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 11 Jan 2022 21:39:06 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2022 : 01:38:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Myrkul, in that very same game, declares that he created the Wall, and nobody disagrees with him. Kelemvor's problem was that he couldn't tear down the Wall due to it being a judgement of his predecessor - and yes, Myrkul was well within his rights to create the Wall. Myrkul's problem was that he got too big for his britches, not that he was mismanaging his office as Lord of the Dead. There are of course deities who disagreed on how Myrkul managed his job, but for the most part, he wasn't actually violating any kind of deific code of conduct with regards to how he ran his divine realm and carried out his job. He was serious enough about his job that he arranged for the deaths of those clerics who refused to tend to the dead during a plague.
And that's just Myrkul; everyone forgets that Jergal had the jobs of all the Dead Three - his underworld wasn't exactly cushy either.
Basically, the good deities probably hated how Myrkul ran Bone Castle, but couldn't actually do anything about it becuase he was still doing his job properly.
Yeah, sure. The point is the Wall, not Myrkul's job. Because Disbelieving has nothing to do with the Death portfolio. So, this was just Myrkul deciding for himself what to do with the souls of the Faithless, that according to Planescape just wander about (since no god accept them in their domains) and dissipate into nothingness in a painless way. Myrkul just decided they had to suffer for an eternity for whatever reason (his own amusement, it seems), and no other god said anything about it.
Generally speaking, death gods generally have full authority over their pantheons' dead. Sure, Lathander or Torm can kick a fuss and start a crusade against Myrkul, but he's still a god doing his job, even if it's with cruelty and dickishness. Intrapantheon open warfare is extremely rare, and frankly tearing down Myrkul's fence is secondary to preventing him from getting new bricks. Better to turn the Faithless and False already in the Realms to embracing worship, rather than invade a power's realm and provoke retaliation.
Your problem is that you think Myrkul has to be nice while administering to his duties as Lord of the Dead. Here's the thing; if Myrkul decided to turn Faerun's False and Faithless into a planar 'rent-a-chamberpot' business, it's still within his job responsibilities. Myrkul adding some new decor to Bone Castle isn't any different from Kelemvor renovating it; they're still doing their jobs, they just interpret their responsibilities differently. Notably, Jergal served them both faithfully and without complaint, so evidently he thought that Myrkul wasn't straying from his office. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 12 Jan 2022 01:41:41 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2022 : 03:33:14
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| Oh, I have no problem with Myrkul at all. The guy was an evil god, doing evil things. It makes sense. What does not make sense is people trying to justify the existence of the Wall as some good or necessary thing, when it was just Myrkul being an asshole. Now, Kelemvor keeping the Wall when he is supposed to be a neutral god who proclaims himself to be just... well, that is another beast. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Jan 2022 03:37:19 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2022 : 03:42:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
What does not make sense is people trying to justify the existence of the Wall as some good or necessary thing, when it was just Myrkul being an asshole.
Do we have anything like that in the lore? The only instance I can remember is Kelemvor in Mask of the Betrayer (which was a terrific story, despite that disappointing ending). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2022 : 03:51:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
What does not make sense is people trying to justify the existence of the Wall as some good or necessary thing, when it was just Myrkul being an asshole.
Do we have anything like that in the lore? The only instance I can remember is Kelemvor in Mask of the Betrayer (which was a terrific story, despite that disappointing ending).
So far as I know, there is nothing explaining the purpose of the Wall, in canon lore. Therefore, we cannot definitively say it was or wasn't necessary, or that it was or wasn't malicious.
The latter certainly appears to be the case, but without something to back it up, it's just an opinion. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2022 : 04:00:08
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| I hope we can agree that the gods (the good ones, for certain) effectively throwing their hands up in a What can you do? gesture is quietly unsettling. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2022 : 04:12:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I hope we can agree that the gods (the good ones, for certain) effectively throwing their hands up in a What can you do? gesture is quietly unsettling.
Can't agree, because we don't know that that's what the good deities did -- just like we don't know if there's some greater purpose that makes the good deities accept it as a necessary evil.
We simply don't have enough facts about the Wall to make judgement calls like that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2022 : 04:33:53
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| We don't even know if any deity that is not a death god/god of the dead has accepted the wall. Might even be that Ao would come down and put a deity trying to interfere with the portfolio of the god of death in their place. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2022 : 04:36:41
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I believe we need also to consider that there are gods caught in active conflicts with certain other gods (example: Selune and Shar). For such a god to attempt something as resource-draining as sieging the fugue plane, it would mean exposing themseves to massive losses--and potentially even an ultimate defeat in their ongoing conflict--because their nemesis would certainly try and exploit the moment of vulnerability to turn the tides in their favor. The situation here would be saving a small number of souls (the faithless aren't that many) vs. losing an ungodly (heh) number of lives, souls, celestials, and whatever you have that fights for the deity. Then you have the lesser deities, that could only join the forces of a greater deity that has decided to attack the fugue. Even then, some of these gods are in the same situation as Selune (example: Eilistraee already struggling in her conflict with Lolth).
Another thing to consider is that a lot of souls would fall in the hands of demons that would certainly exploit any attempt to attack the fugue. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Jan 2022 04:46:33 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2022 : 04:50:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I hope we can agree that the gods (the good ones, for certain) effectively throwing their hands up in a What can you do? gesture is quietly unsettling.
Can't agree, because we don't know that that's what the good deities did -- just like we don't know if there's some greater purpose that makes the good deities accept it as a necessary evil.
We simply don't have enough facts about the Wall to make judgement calls like that.
You won't find less of a stickler for adherence to "canon" than me, but I'd like to know if the Wall of the Faithless is still standing as of 5e; if the construction remains erect, then we can ask setting creators (perhaps the big cheese himself) how the Good gods feel about its presence and/or what (if any) measures to ameliorate the situation they've taken. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2022 : 04:58:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We simply don't have enough facts about the Wall to make judgement calls like that.
We really don't know much about Forgotten Realms cosmology in general. And there are enough contradictions in what we do know to justify pretty much any interpretation. World Tree? Great Wheel? World Axis? These cosmologies all provide vastly different answers to fundamental questions. It's like having one sourcebook tell you that Waterdeep is a port city on the Sword Coast, another tell you that it's a tropical island in Zakhara, and another tell you that it's a halfling village in Luiren. Canon doesn't even really exist at that point. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2022 : 05:23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
You won't find less of a stickler for adherence to "canon" than me, but I'd like to know if the Wall of the Faithless is still standing as of 5e; if the construction remains erect, then we can ask setting creators (perhaps the big cheese himself) how the Good gods feel about its presence and/or what (if any) measures to ameliorate the situation they've taken.
I think they're going to avoid the question, because every possible answer is controversial. It's obvious that some people find the Wall offensive, and the setting creators can't go on record about how the good-aligned gods feel about it without violating some people's conception of good. And once you do that, you lose those people as customers, because a setting loses its verisimilitude when its supposedly all-powerful, benevolent gods are revealed to be evil morons.
The only way the setting creators can avoid the problem is by continuing to ignore it, or by outright destroying or retconning the Wall. Personally, my money is on "ignore," because that seems to be par for the course these days. |
Edited by - HighOne on 12 Jan 2022 05:26:00 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2022 : 06:06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I hope we can agree that the gods (the good ones, for certain) effectively throwing their hands up in a What can you do? gesture is quietly unsettling.
Here's the thing; they actually can't do anything without invading Bone Castle. The gods of good can only object on moral grounds, and Myrkul isn't some backwater demipower - he's a greater power, and the Faithless and the False are still dead.
I mean, even the Aesir had to politely ask Hel to cough up Baldur's soul and had to abide by her terms. The same goes here - the gods of good are moral crusaders, and invading the realm of another god who's just doing his job is just asking for retaliation. It's something better left to a discreet strike team.
It's better to concentrate on undermining Myrkul's worship and turn unbelievers to the devout, if only to deny Myrkul his kicks. |
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Children and the wall.
