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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Mar 2021 : 01:35:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Personally, that makes the most sense. I know R.A. Salvatore reincarnated his main characters, but what other examples are there in-setting. I'm drawing a blank. Resurrected, yes, but reincarnated as someone/something else, not so much.
Most elves get reincarnated if we were to apply 5e cosmology to the Realms (which is debatable I think?) From Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes:
"Each birth represents an elf soul that has been to Arvandor and returned. Mortal elves cannot know if it is the soul of someone recently dead or someone who died millennia ago. They cannot even be certain it is an elf of the same world."
While elves have always believed in reincarnation, it was never something that was forced on them, as MToF implied (that book totally sh*t on elf and drow lore). Arvandor is a reward, not a temporary summer home that elves stay at for a time before Corellon kicks them out.
Elven ties to Arvandor are very strong--almost all elven spirit/souls go there. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 25 Mar 2021 02:33:35 |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2022 : 14:46:44
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I have read a few scrolls on the topic of death and the afterlife, and it is still confusing to me. Let's take a concrete example: a random drow. Considering how drow society was depicted until recently, it seems that there is no real advantage to worshipping Lolth if one isn't a priestess, beside of course not being tortured. So most of the drows should be considered false, since they hate the only goddess they know of. So when that drow dies:
- does he get immediately claimed by Lolth, as the goddess of drows and the only one he knows of?
- does he get to reject her and be judged as False?
- does he get claimed by a random divinity whose values align with what's in his heart, even though he has never heard of them?
The discussion so far seems to lean on that last possibility, but then, how come Lolth is so powerful, considering she's so chaotic that there is no advantage to worshipping her outside of the few who can get secular power from her? It's not as if the Demonweb Pits were an alluring place where to spend one's afterlife, and that's one case where the Wall would actually be tempting...
EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, there is a fourth possibility: a demon raid, where the demons are yochlols. It would make sense for Lolth to know exactly where a soul sacrificed to her would end up and to know where to send her demons to capture it before anyone else can. This would be tantamount to the first option, but still be compatible with the lore presented above. |
Edited by - Athreeren on 07 Jan 2022 15:03:58 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2022 : 16:03:56
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| On that last Lolth question.... perhaps they're so indoctrinated/brainwashed that the concept that they have a choice in the matter eludes them. Some might realize it, but many might just not realize that they're free to choose. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2022 : 19:27:05
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| I would say that unless they're lucky enough to learn of other deities, they would -- reluctantly -- worship Lolth, for lack of a better option, and this would allow her to claim them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2022 : 20:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would say that unless they're lucky enough to learn of other deities, they would -- reluctantly -- worship Lolth, for lack of a better option, and this would allow her to claim them.
This would explain why the priesthood of The Spider Queen works hard to stamp out whisperings of other gods; even the slightest doubt in Lolth raises the possibility that those souls will be pulled away from her domain/divine power base. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2022 : 22:33:45
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| Well Ed has indicated that Lolth can not prevent dream messages from other deities, so all should know there are options. At beat many Drow indeed might believe that the other deities dream whispers are lies and better to stay with the faith you know. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2022 : 23:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
I have read a few scrolls on the topic of death and the afterlife, and it is still confusing to me. Let's take a concrete example: a random drow. Considering how drow society was depicted until recently, it seems that there is no real advantage to worshipping Lolth if one isn't a priestess, beside of course not being tortured. So most of the drows should be considered false, since they hate the only goddess they know of. So when that drow dies:
- does he get immediately claimed by Lolth, as the goddess of drows and the only one he knows of?
- does he get to reject her and be judged as False?
- does he get claimed by a random divinity whose values align with what's in his heart, even though he has never heard of them?
The discussion so far seems to lean on that last possibility, but then, how come Lolth is so powerful, considering she's so chaotic that there is no advantage to worshipping her outside of the few who can get secular power from her? It's not as if the Demonweb Pits were an alluring place where to spend one's afterlife, and that's one case where the Wall would actually be tempting...
EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, there is a fourth possibility: a demon raid, where the demons are yochlols. It would make sense for Lolth to know exactly where a soul sacrificed to her would end up and to know where to send her demons to capture it before anyone else can. This would be tantamount to the first option, but still be compatible with the lore presented above.
I heard once--I think in a Tweet from Ed--that the sacrifices made to Lolth and demons aren't souls per se, though a soul sacrifice is certainly possible, and I am not saying it doesn't happen, but when typically when someone is sacrificed to an evil entity, the entity feeds off their fear and suffering more than the soul itself, and the soul itself would still go to its deity, albeit probably a bit traumatized.
To your main question though: in general, most Faerunians are polytheistic in nature, worshiping a variety of deities throughout out their lives, and eventually, through word or deed, gravitating towards one. Perhaps a soldier worships Helm because of his soldier ideals, but also really likes gardening and pays homage to Chauntea. When a person dies, they usually go to the Fugue Plane, where they are then claimed by the deity who is best aligned with their morals and ethics, and who they ended up worshiping most in their life (maybe the soldier's passion for gardening outweighed his passion for soldiering). I think Kelemvor steps in when there is some ambiguity.
It is actually fairly rare for a person to end up on the Wall (despite the fact it is indeed a wall. It is one that has been built over a long period of time). You have to really be in denial and never even pay lip service. As for the False, they don't typically end up on the Wall; instead, they are assigned roles and punishment in the City of Judgement, and their punishment varies based on the severity of their crime. For some, this just means helping out around the City.
Races like elves, gnomes, dwarves, etc, typically go to the realm of their respective pantheons. The call to Arvandor is particularly strong for elves, for example.
As for drow, Lolth is probably the only Torilian deity to demand monotheism, but this does not stop some drow from worshiping other deities, particularly the other two drow deities, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, though their followers have to operate discreetly. But most drow who follow Lolth (out of fear, if nothing else) end up going to her, unless they are worshiping another deity (such as Eilistraee). This was shown in War of the Spider Queen--messy though that series was, it did show drow souls going to Lolth (though I personally think some of them there deserved a better fate).
That said, I think it is possible for a drow to be taken in by another deity based on what is in their heart if they hate Lolth but don't know of an alternative. Pretty sure this is what happened with Zak, though I doubt we'll ever find out where he was because RAS only touches the gods to make the look bad.
But I think, especially now with Kelemvor in charge, a drow isn't going to end up labelled as Faithless just because they defy Lolth but don't have an alternative. There has never been an indication that I know of that says the Wall is made up predominantly of drone souls, so there is no reason to believe they end up being deemed Faithless just because they don't follow Lolth. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 01:19:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well Ed has indicated that Lolth can not prevent dream messages from other deities, so all should know there are options. At beat many Drow indeed might believe that the other deities dream whispers are lies and better to stay with the faith you know.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time or all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time." is an aphorism that those priestesses are trying their damnedest to disprove.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
That said, I think it is possible for a drow to be taken in by another deity based on what is in their heart if they hate Lolth but don't know of an alternative. Pretty sure this is what happened with Zak, though I doubt we'll ever find out where he was because RAS only touches the gods to make them look bad.
He painted a fairly positive picture of Mielikki in Sojourn. Has his perspective changed? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 01:46:10
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He has been projecting a lot of his ex-Catholic bitterness into his books. I can think of numerous examples of where even the goodly deities (and those who follow them) are painted as silly/wrong. Using Mielikki as an example, yes, her whole decree that goblins are evil and must be eradicated (essentially genocide) is quite OOC for her.
Recent interviews I have seen with him have only affirmed my suspicions. But this scroll isn't really about RAS. I only brought him up because I wanted to use the example of Zak. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 08 Jan 2022 01:51:32 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 02:33:30
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
He has been projecting a lot of his ex-Catholic bitterness into his books. I can think of numerous examples of where even the goodly deities (and those who follow them) are painted as silly/wrong. Using Mielikki as an example, yes, her whole decree that goblins are evil and must be eradicated (essentially genocide) is quite OOC for her.
Recent interviews I have seen with him have only affirmed my suspicions. But this scroll isn't really about RAS. I only brought him up because I wanted to use the example of Zak.
You'd think he'd have chosen a god more in-line with the positive/modern view of the Abrahamic god, such as Illmater, Lathander or even Eldath; there's little comparison between the former and Mielikki. Anyhow, I suppose it is difficult - as an author - to feature monstrous races that are entirely or primarily evil when your main moneymaker is an exception to the rule concerning his race. It's a shame...I myself am not religious, but I do enjoy the manifold deities the Realms has to offer and I hate this stance of "The evil gods are evil and the good gods are secretly kinda malicious too."; let the good guys be good (mildly flawed at worst), the bad guys be bad (mildly sympathetic at best) and throw in an occasional curveball if it works. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 02:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
He has been projecting a lot of his ex-Catholic bitterness into his books. I can think of numerous examples of where even the goodly deities (and those who follow them) are painted as silly/wrong. Using Mielikki as an example, yes, her whole decree that goblins are evil and must be eradicated (essentially genocide) is quite OOC for her.
Recent interviews I have seen with him have only affirmed my suspicions. But this scroll isn't really about RAS. I only brought him up because I wanted to use the example of Zak.
You'd think he'd have chosen a god more in-line with the positive/modern view of the Abrahamic god, such as Illmater, Lathander or even Eldath; there's little comparison between the former and Mielikki. Anyhow, I suppose it is difficult - as an author - to feature monstrous races that are entirely or primarily evil when your main moneymaker is an exception to the rule concerning his race. It's a shame...I myself am not religious, but I do enjoy the manifold deities the Realms has to offer and I hate this stance of "The evil gods are evil and the good gods are secretly kinda malicious too."; let the good guys be good (mildly flawed at worst), the bad guys be bad (mildly sympathetic at best) and throw in an occasional curveball if it works.
It doesn't seem to matter who the deity is. RAS seems to be projecting that all religion (even fiction) is bad. I mean, in Relentless, he stated that Lolth is an infection, not a goddess. Which, yes, one could viably argue she is indeed an infection, but to me it spoke to the larger picture RAS is trying to paint. He doesn't miss an opportunity to spit on the gods.
I am not religious, either (though I like the idea of religion), but I love the gods jn the Realms, and indeed enjoy them in fantasy in general. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 03:37:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
I have read a few scrolls on the topic of death and the afterlife, and it is still confusing to me. Let's take a concrete example: a random drow. Considering how drow society was depicted until recently, it seems that there is no real advantage to worshipping Lolth if one isn't a priestess, beside of course not being tortured. So most of the drows should be considered false, since they hate the only goddess they know of. So when that drow dies:
- does he get immediately claimed by Lolth, as the goddess of drows and the only one he knows of?
- does he get to reject her and be judged as False?
- does he get claimed by a random divinity whose values align with what's in his heart, even though he has never heard of them?
The discussion so far seems to lean on that last possibility, but then, how come Lolth is so powerful, considering she's so chaotic that there is no advantage to worshipping her outside of the few who can get secular power from her? It's not as if the Demonweb Pits were an alluring place where to spend one's afterlife, and that's one case where the Wall would actually be tempting...
EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, there is a fourth possibility: a demon raid, where the demons are yochlols. It would make sense for Lolth to know exactly where a soul sacrificed to her would end up and to know where to send her demons to capture it before anyone else can. This would be tantamount to the first option, but still be compatible with the lore presented above.
No matter how powerful you are, you can't randomly claim souls that didn't worship you. Kelemvor will judge them and decide what to do. Generally, souls of people who didn't reject the gods as a whole could go to the realm of the deity that shows the best affinity to what they stood for in life.
That said, the drow do know of other deities; they know them as forbidden faiths, but as we know, forbidding a faith doesn't prevent people from secretly practicing it. Also, there are deities who actively reach to the drow. Namely, Eilistraee. Ed has explained that Eilistraee sends emotions and dreams to all drow, that Lolth is powerless to prevent her from doing so, and that all drow come to feel Eilistraee's messages at some point in their lives. Their reactions are very heterogeneous, but a lot of them secretly wish to accept Eilistraee's offer and quit Lolth's society. So there's that--if you think about it, deities like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun will shelter many more souls than just their followers. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Jan 2022 03:40:18 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 05:48:38
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| Even if you do hear the message and are receptive to the promise of a better life, good luck escaping from your subterranean hell and finding a support network on the land above. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 06:13:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Even if you do hear the message and are receptive to the promise of a better life, good luck escaping from your subterranean hell and finding a support network on the land above.
The followers of Eilistraee provide just that. They even have a whole order that infiltrates Lolthite settlemens to help the drow who are willing (or who find themselves in difficult situations) out. Also, a number of portals located in major drow cities (the most famous is in Menzo itself, hidden in an abandoned warehouse, and keyed with Eilistraee's message).
Regardless, even if a drow who's receptive to the dreams/visions/sensations Eilistraee sends them doesn't manage to get out of Lolthite society, I guess their soul still won't be taken by Lolth. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Jan 2022 06:17:35 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 16:13:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
I have read a few scrolls on the topic of death and the afterlife, and it is still confusing to me. Let's take a concrete example: a random drow. Considering how drow society was depicted until recently, it seems that there is no real advantage to worshipping Lolth if one isn't a priestess, beside of course not being tortured. So most of the drows should be considered false, since they hate the only goddess they know of. So when that drow dies:
- does he get immediately claimed by Lolth, as the goddess of drows and the only one he knows of?
- does he get to reject her and be judged as False?
- does he get claimed by a random divinity whose values align with what's in his heart, even though he has never heard of them?
The discussion so far seems to lean on that last possibility, but then, how come Lolth is so powerful, considering she's so chaotic that there is no advantage to worshipping her outside of the few who can get secular power from her? It's not as if the Demonweb Pits were an alluring place where to spend one's afterlife, and that's one case where the Wall would actually be tempting...
EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, there is a fourth possibility: a demon raid, where the demons are yochlols. It would make sense for Lolth to know exactly where a soul sacrificed to her would end up and to know where to send her demons to capture it before anyone else can. This would be tantamount to the first option, but still be compatible with the lore presented above.
No matter how powerful you are, you can't randomly claim souls that didn't worship you. Kelemvor will judge them and decide what to do. Generally, souls of people who didn't reject the gods as a whole could go to the realm of the deity that shows the best affinity to what they stood for in life.
Thing is, Kelemvor is just the judge of the dead... In the Faerunian pantheon. There a lot of gods of dead in the Realms. Heck, even Ed Greenwood said that the Raven Queen has been snatching souls for many years, since before Kelemvor became a god. Kelemvor isn't the all powerful god of dead his worshipers want you to believe. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 08 Jan 2022 16:14:13 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 18:03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
I have read a few scrolls on the topic of death and the afterlife, and it is still confusing to me. Let's take a concrete example: a random drow. Considering how drow society was depicted until recently, it seems that there is no real advantage to worshipping Lolth if one isn't a priestess, beside of course not being tortured. So most of the drows should be considered false, since they hate the only goddess they know of. So when that drow dies:
- does he get immediately claimed by Lolth, as the goddess of drows and the only one he knows of?
- does he get to reject her and be judged as False?
- does he get claimed by a random divinity whose values align with what's in his heart, even though he has never heard of them?
The discussion so far seems to lean on that last possibility, but then, how come Lolth is so powerful, considering she's so chaotic that there is no advantage to worshipping her outside of the few who can get secular power from her? It's not as if the Demonweb Pits were an alluring place where to spend one's afterlife, and that's one case where the Wall would actually be tempting...
EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, there is a fourth possibility: a demon raid, where the demons are yochlols. It would make sense for Lolth to know exactly where a soul sacrificed to her would end up and to know where to send her demons to capture it before anyone else can. This would be tantamount to the first option, but still be compatible with the lore presented above.
No matter how powerful you are, you can't randomly claim souls that didn't worship you. Kelemvor will judge them and decide what to do. Generally, souls of people who didn't reject the gods as a whole could go to the realm of the deity that shows the best affinity to what they stood for in life.
Thing is, Kelemvor is just the judge of the dead... In the Faerunian pantheon. There a lot of gods of dead in the Realms. Heck, even Ed Greenwood said that the Raven Queen has been snatching souls for many years, since before Kelemvor became a god. Kelemvor isn't the all powerful god of dead his worshipers want you to believe.
Ed said that? I thought the Raven Queen wasn't originally a Realms deity. And when you say "snatch", do you mean she keeps the souls for herself, or just deposits them in the appropriate place? From my understanding, the Raven Queen, much like Kelemvor, doesn't keep the souls of the dead (except those of her followers). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 18:38:38
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She wasn't originally part of the Realms, at least not in 4e. She was just incorporated into the Realms in 5e, and Ed created a backstory for her. In said backstory, she predates Kelemvor. That's all.
My point is, there are a lot of gods of death and the dead in the Realms, some of them predating Kel (either conceptually, in-universe or both). Kel (and his predecessors) is just in charge of the souls of the dead in the jurisdiction of the Faerunian Pantheon. He cannot do much for drow souls, that fall into the jurisdiction of the Drow Pantheon, unless individual drows worship a member of the Faerunian Pantheon. For the rest of the drow, he can just watch how Lolth do whatever she wants with them.
As for the Raven Queen, following her 5e lore, she collects souls, preserve their memories and send the souls to whatever afterlife they deserve. Just without their memories. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 08 Jan 2022 18:42:36 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 18:59:01
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My impression is that the racial pantheons are somewhat removed from the more mundane deities, and that the heads of their pantheons have 'priority' over what happens to the souls of those that fall in their domain. Ed Greenwood has said that deities already don't need much justification to 'claim' unclaimed souls as it is. So if you had a surface elf who didn't follow any particular god, they'd still fall into the category of Corellon's domain after their death before any other god. If they worshipped (for example) Bane, they'd go through the 'normal' afterlife process- going to the fugue plane, getting petitioned by devils while waiting for a representative of Bane to snatch up their souls, and potentially risk being snatched up by a demon raid or being judged false if Bane's rep didn't arrive- the usual process.
Interestingly, Lolth's domain seems to extend to 'evil elves' to an extent, so she could potentially snatch up the souls of evil elves that Corellon and the Seldarine rejected. In the Evermeet novel there's an interesting meeting between an evil sun elf and Lolth where she threatens aforementioned sun elf with driderhood if he doesn't do what she wants, and the implication there was that because he was such an evil bastard, he no longer fell under the jurisdiction and protection of the Seldarine and she had authority over his soul.
As to Athreeren's scenario, I think if a follower of Lolth rejected her, didn't pledge to a specific other god, and then died, they'd probably still be under her domain, and it'd be up to her whether or not she decided to let that soul go to Kelemvor's court to be judged, or let one of the other members of the Dark Seldarine etc. Maybe there's some trading,
cajoling or outright theft of souls behind the scenes for Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee etc to get lolth to consider their claims to certain souls they think fall under their domains. I would think there has to be some outside assurance at least (Ao?) to ensure she doesn't just starve the other gods entirely of followers, but I would assume that any drow (particularly evil ones) who dies without their soul promised to a specific deity is in for a rough time. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 21:02:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
I have read a few scrolls on the topic of death and the afterlife, and it is still confusing to me. Let's take a concrete example: a random drow. Considering how drow society was depicted until recently, it seems that there is no real advantage to worshipping Lolth if one isn't a priestess, beside of course not being tortured. So most of the drows should be considered false, since they hate the only goddess they know of. So when that drow dies:
- does he get immediately claimed by Lolth, as the goddess of drows and the only one he knows of?
- does he get to reject her and be judged as False?
- does he get claimed by a random divinity whose values align with what's in his heart, even though he has never heard of them?
The discussion so far seems to lean on that last possibility, but then, how come Lolth is so powerful, considering she's so chaotic that there is no advantage to worshipping her outside of the few who can get secular power from her? It's not as if the Demonweb Pits were an alluring place where to spend one's afterlife, and that's one case where the Wall would actually be tempting...
EDIT: Actually now that I think about it, there is a fourth possibility: a demon raid, where the demons are yochlols. It would make sense for Lolth to know exactly where a soul sacrificed to her would end up and to know where to send her demons to capture it before anyone else can. This would be tantamount to the first option, but still be compatible with the lore presented above.
No matter how powerful you are, you can't randomly claim souls that didn't worship you. Kelemvor will judge them and decide what to do. Generally, souls of people who didn't reject the gods as a whole could go to the realm of the deity that shows the best affinity to what they stood for in life.
Thing is, Kelemvor is just the judge of the dead... In the Faerunian pantheon. There a lot of gods of dead in the Realms. Heck, even Ed Greenwood said that the Raven Queen has been snatching souls for many years, since before Kelemvor became a god. Kelemvor isn't the all powerful god of dead his worshipers want you to believe.
Power has nothing to do with this, what I got from the sourcebooks was that all souls go to the Fugue before going anywhere else, regardless of who the current deity of the dead is.
Snatching isn't the same as having a claim on a soul; snatching implies stealing, which is a different matter. Heck, you don't even need to be a deity to snatch souls. Could Lolth send demons to steal drow souls? Yeah. Can Lolth just go to the soul of a random drow who didn't worship her and claim it? Don't think so especially if said drow is false or faithless. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 21:02:55
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
As to Athreeren's scenario, I think if a follower of Lolth rejected her, didn't pledge to a specific other god, and then died, they'd probably still be under her domain, and it'd be up to her whether or not she decided to let that soul go to Kelemvor's court to be judged, or let one of the other members of the Dark Seldarine etc. Maybe there's some trading,
cajoling or outright theft of souls behind the scenes for Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee etc to get lolth to consider their claims to certain souls they think fall under their domains. I would think there has to be some outside assurance at least (Ao?) to ensure she doesn't just starve the other gods entirely of followers, but I would assume that any drow (particularly evil ones) who dies without their soul promised to a specific deity is in for a rough time.
My assumption is generally that if Lolth wants to claim a soul that is obviously hers (e.g. her priestesses, and so on, the devout), then whoever is judging the dead, like Kelemvor, will basically just rubber-stamp it and off they go. If the soul has rejected her, then it will be judged in the court by Kelemvor or one of his appointees, so Lolth has to send a representative, or an avatar, or come herself (if the soul is important enough), and argue her case, probably opposed by whatever other gods think they have a claim. If Kelemvor or whoever is judging agrees with Lolth, then Lolth can claim it. But if he decides that no, this particular drow soul has clearly been true to Eilistraee or Vhaeraun or whoever, then he’s not going to hand the soul to Lolth, he will send it to the god or goddess that they actually match. He’s Lawful Neutral about it, so he will be even-handed.
On drow more generally, and Lolth worship. I have wondered as well how many of Lolth’s followers may also follow her out of fear, or “better the devil you know” ideologies. While Lolth can’t stop visions and dreams from coming to drow from gods like Vhaeraun or Eilistraee, she can ensure that as many drow as possible fear or reject even the notion of other gods even when they get those visions. This actually appeared with Drizzt in RAS’ earlier novels, when he rejected Lolth but his involvement with the Spider Queen’s religion had effectively tainted his view of gods wholesale, to where he spurned them the first time Montolio brought the subject up with him and it took a while to bring him around and accept the notion that not all were bad.
And that, I think, is probably a secondary contributor to the Lolth worship issue: the ones who do reject her are probably still suffering from some level of PTSD over it, particularly in cities like Menzoberranzan where Lolth worship is supreme. Eilistraeeans could of course assist if they find the wayward drow, but as sometimes unfortunately happens, not everybody recovers the same way, or at all. Some might relapse, too. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 21:06:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
in the jurisdiction of the Faerunian Pantheon.
Thing is, how do you establish who falls under the jurisdiction of the Faerunian Pantheon? Ed said that pantheons aren't a real thing, only little boxes that mortals use to categorize deities (and this makes a lot of sense, really, as exposed by pantheons that really aren't pantheons but just a bunch of conflicting deities like the Dark Seldarine). So what the hell is a pantheon's jurisdiction anyway?
Maybe racial deities of the dead can go to the fugue and lead the souls of the people compatible with their afterlife to it, while those who aren't oe who rejected their race's afterlife/deities are left to Kelemvor's jurisdiction. We also need to consider that the drow don't have a deity of the dead, which reinforces that drow souls are probably judged by Kelemvor. So, if a drow soul spurned Lolth but didn't worship anyone, Lolth can at best steal it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Jan 2022 21:09:43 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 21:12:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
As to Athreeren's scenario, I think if a follower of Lolth rejected her, didn't pledge to a specific other god, and then died, they'd probably still be under her domain, and it'd be up to her whether or not she decided to let that soul go to Kelemvor's court to be judged, or let one of the other members of the Dark Seldarine etc. Maybe there's some trading,
cajoling or outright theft of souls behind the scenes for Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee etc to get lolth to consider their claims to certain souls they think fall under their domains. I would think there has to be some outside assurance at least (Ao?) to ensure she doesn't just starve the other gods entirely of followers, but I would assume that any drow (particularly evil ones) who dies without their soul promised to a specific deity is in for a rough time.
My assumption is generally that if Lolth wants to claim a soul that is obviously hers (e.g. her priestesses, and so on, the devout), then whoever is judging the dead, like Kelemvor, will basically just rubber-stamp it and off they go. If the soul has rejected her, then it will be judged in the court by Kelemvor or one of his appointees, so Lolth has to send a representative, or an avatar, or come herself (if the soul is important enough), and argue her case, probably opposed by whatever other gods think they have a claim. If Kelemvor or whoever is judging agrees with Lolth, then Lolth can claim it. But if he decides that no, this particular drow soul has clearly been true to Eilistraee or Vhaeraun or whoever, then he’s not going to hand the soul to Lolth, he will send it to the god or goddess that they actually match. He’s Lawful Neutral about it, so he will be even-handed.
On drow more generally, and Lolth worship. I have wondered as well how many of Lolth’s followers may also follow her out of fear, or “better the devil you know” ideologies.
Given that Lolth is a Saturday morning cartoon, bonkers "Stupid Evil" levels kind of villain in the way she's currently written, probably most Lolthite drow are Lolthite only in name. Only people who benefit from the system would actually worship her, and they are of course a narrow minority.
If Lolth was written with a little more thought put into it than "EDGE AND CHAOS (actually randomness&plot convenience, btw) LULZ", then maybe many more drow would actually worship her, rather than just paying lipservice. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Jan 2022 21:13:33 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 21:39:15
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Well, there are IIRC other systems of afterlife on Toril besides the standard Faerunian one with Kelemvor, although his reach does seem to be pretty far. I think it makes plenty of sense for that a lot of these multiversal pantheons to not cede authority entirely to Kelemvor. The Seldarine does seem to generally have jurisdiction over Elven souls except where they worship gods outside of the Seldarine, and Lolth seems like she also has broad authority over evil elven souls (drow specifically but not exclusively) that the Seldarine doesn't want a part of.
I expect there's some sort of mechanism or agreement between the gods to sort them out similar to Kelemvor's in practice though, with variations from pantheon to pantheon. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 22:03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
in the jurisdiction of the Faerunian Pantheon.
Thing is, how do you establish who falls under the jurisdiction of the Faerunian Pantheon? Ed said that pantheons aren't a real thing, only little boxes that mortals use to categorize deities (and this makes a lot of sense, really, as exposed by pantheons that really aren't pantheons but just a bunch of conflicting deities like the Dark Seldarine). So what the hell is a pantheon's jurisdiction anyway?
A pantheon of gods is like time itself: its a human concept to understand an actual phenomenon our minds cannot truly comprehend. Does that makes it less real? I don't think so.
We know the gods have rules, and are these rules Kelemvor and every other god of death is subject to in this particular regard. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 22:48:46
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| Has anyone here ever actually played out this "afterlife sorting sequence" or is has it remained a purely theoretical exercise? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 22:49:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
A pantheon of gods is like time itself: its a human concept to understand an actual phenomenon our minds cannot truly comprehend. Does that makes it less real? I don't think so.
No, this is a false comparison. Everything is just a human made idea, because everything we perceive is literally a hallucination of your brain, that tries to predict what's in front of you, what will happen, and so on.
Even within this hallucination, some things are direct translations of stuff that actually happens (example: color, sound, and time--yes, "time is not real" is a misleading phrase that Physicists don't say to mean what most people belive it means. If you want more, this Physicist explains it well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdL8CudJTcs&t=260s). Other things are just categories that helps us understand stuff. It's like when someone labels people who like metal as metalheads--they're not an official group of people who work towards something, have a common endeavor, or so on. They just share one hobby, and were labeled for it. For the gods of a certain pantheons, they were categorized like that because they share the fact that most of their followers share a certain quality (belonging to a race, for example), but they aren't an actual organization.
quote:
We know the gods have rules, and are these rules Kelemvor and every other god of death is subject to in this particular regard.
As far as I've read, the rule is that a deity cannot claim a soul that didn't worship them. They can steal or snatch the soul, but don't have an official claim on it. Hence, Lolth can't randomly claim souls of drow that rejected her.
You also didn't answer my question about what it means to be under the jurisdiction of the Faerunian Pantheon. You have to live in Faerun? Well then, most drow and a lot of elves and people from other races are under Kel's jurisdiction. Also, this interpretation poses problems concerning people who move away from--or move in--Faerun.
Does it mean being a human who lives in Faerun? Then it means that souls of non-humans who are faithless shouldn't be judged as such by Kel, so they shouldn't go to the wall, which is Kel's jurisdiction, but this isn't the case (or well, wasn't, since the wall has been retconned).
Does it means being a person who worships the Faerunian pantheon? Then in this case too Kel wouldn't be able to judge any faithless, because they wouldn't be under the jurisdiction of the Faerunian Pantheon.
In addition to leading to contradictions, these interpretations are kinda lawyer-ish and arbitrary, because they are very tied to a kind of categorization that only exists in some people's mind (that of pantheons, that--like I've said--aren't actual organizations, and only a way certain people see the relationship between certain deities).
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Jan 2022 01:00:41 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2022 : 01:00:16
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You have to worship these gods, it seems? We don't really don't, and they haven't bothered devising such rules. Even Ed says that the mortals cannot truly comprehend divine stuff, so they just try to understand it. The fact is, however, that Kelemvor cannot claim some souls, not even for judging. Ed has said that Kelemvor cannot claim the souls of the Abeirans, for instance, not even those Abeirans living now in Faerûn and Toril. He cannot claim them unless they actually worship the gods grouped into that label. And we also know that the Seldarine and the anti-Seldarine have privilege at the time to claim elven souls, and the same happens with the Mordinsamnan (or whatever they are called). Even the Raven Queen can claim some souls and Kelemvor can't say something about it.
As for the Faithless, that is a stupid thing that makes no sense in the Realms and I'm happy they just erased it from the face of the sources. But I can guess I can fix it saying that, if you said you believed in some god and fail to fulfill that gives Kelemvor some rights over your soul. But perhaps this works only with the gods of the "Faerunian Pantheon". |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 09 Jan 2022 01:01:16 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2022 : 01:08:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
And we also know that the Seldarine and the anti-Seldarine have privilege at the time to claim elven souls, and the same happens with the Mordinsamnan (or whatever they are called).
Setting aside MToF, do we have any source on this? I haven't read anything that states that the non-human deities are privileged in this regard (in FR), but maybe it's said in a book that I didn't read.
quote:
Even the Raven Queen can claim some souls and Kelemvor can't say something about it.
From your post, Ed said she can snatch them, which isn't the same as claiming them. Then again, if someone worships her, of course she has a claim on them.
quote:
As for the Faithless, that is a stupid thing that makes no sense in the Realms and I'm happy they just erased it from the face of the sources. But I can guess I can fix it saying that, if you said you believed in some god and fail to fulfill that gives Kelemvor some rights over your soul. But perhaps this works only with the souls of the "Faerunian Pantheon".
I agree that it was bad, and I agree that it's good that they erased it. However, I used it because this matter of judging souls was decided when the faithless thingy was still in place (also, I'd say that a deity having an official claim on the soul of someone whon rejected them is as bad as the faithless thingy. It's the same kind of wrongness--a faithless rejects the gods and becomes mush into a god-made wall; a drow rejects Lolth and still gets tortured in her plane, because reasons.
If we want to talk current lore, one of the few (IMO) positive things is that the recent drow revision undid that--if it ever was a thing--because Lolth is now a niche god, worshipped by a minority of drow, not "the god of drow").
The thing you're referring to is a false; faithless are people who rejected the gods as a whole. If Kel could only judge people who worshipped the Faerunian Pantheon, he would be able to only judge the false. The faithless wouldn't exist at all, because--under this assumption--you have to worship the Faerunian Pantheon to be judged by Kel, and people who rejected the gods, or who worshipped dead gods, and so on, don't fall under that category. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Jan 2022 01:38:53 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2022 : 01:15:05
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I brought this question up before, but I forgot the answer: wasn't one justification for the Wall of the Faithless that there are far worse things than even the Evil gods out in the multiverse, so reinforcing the faith is crucial for the defense of The Forgotten Realms?
...or something along those lines, anyhow. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2022 : 01:33:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I brought this question up before, but I forgot the answer: wasn't one justification for the Wall of the Faithless that there are far worse things than even the Evil gods out in the multiverse, so reinforcing the faith is crucial for the defense of The Forgotten Realms?
...or something along those lines, anyhow.
That was a speculation, no official reason was given AFAIK. But from a design perspective, the wall didn't reinforce the importance of faith in FR, it just made all gods look like asses to new people who approached the setting. The importance of faith in FR is already super strong, because the gods are objectively real and involved with the world, I doubt you can reinforce the importance of faith more than that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Jan 2022 01:34:44 |
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Children and the wall.
