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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 18:45:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
The description of Proctiv’s Move Mountain in the Netheril Arcane Age Boxed Set always had me thinking each enclave was a mountain.
It's pretty much stated in the spell description: "This spell was vital in the construction of enclaves. Without this spell, there was no simple way for severed mountains to be turned over and set afloat above the landscape." |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2021 : 03:05:56
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| Who's to say one, or a few, of the flying enclaves exited the atmosphere into Realmspace. |
- Ryan |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11855 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2021 : 16:28:13
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Here's a thought for folks who want to "keep canon" but still have "flat disk" enclaves.
Archmage 1 - I take the top off Mount Skystone leaving a big flat top on top of it
Archmage 2 - I take the top off what REMAINS of Mount Skystone, which is now a wider and thinner surface like a plate giving me more flat surface area
Archmage 3 - I take the top off what REMAINS of Mount Skystone, which is now a wider and thinner surface like a plate giving me more flat surface area
Archmage 4 - I take the top off what remains after Archmage 3 got finished, getting an even wider surface as the moutain goes down.. but I do it twice and have two flat surfaces that I create my enclave on... leaving the Skystone Hills
Archmage 5 - I create the Skystone Hills dungeon leading into the Underdark, where I start mining chardalyn stones that were uncovered nearby
So, in the above idea "one enclave" is the upside down triangle and three of them are large flat disks, and the final is a mining colony/dungeon. In order to keep them stable, the flat ones may be placed on constructed disks of metal or somesuch as well (doesn't need to be iron and could just be something like a thick layer of tin, nickel, copper, etc...). After all, when we're talking about people having the power to lift mountains, creating a big "plate" to put them on, even if by some kind of magical transmutation into cheap metals, shouldn't be hard to believe.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 31 Jan 2021 17:20:48 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11855 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2021 : 16:48:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
The description of Proctiv’s Move Mountain in the Netheril Arcane Age Boxed Set always had me thinking each enclave was a mountain.
It's pretty much stated in the spell description: "This spell was vital in the construction of enclaves. Without this spell, there was no simple way for severed mountains to be turned over and set afloat above the landscape."
Yeah, this is where I come back to saying "the guy had a lot to write" and he came up with some ideas that needed work, but they weren't horrible. A lot of us were imagining the flipped over mountaintop enclave because that's what we've mostly seen. Even before it was done in Netheril, there was the picture of the flying castle in Krynn that is probably etched in a lot of people's brains. He didn't necessarily come up with something new and unique, but he basically wanted to show an empire full of people using these tropes that were being shown. I'd say for me it was about 10 years or more back that I just started questioning "what would the enclaves look like, and would any look different".
Its for this reason that I actually picture the one I've talked about using in wildspace (i.e. Doubloon) as being more of the flat disk variety. Similar to the one in Rime, around the edge would be towers, and the towers allow one to go from the TOP of the enclave to the BOTTOM of the enclave. The bottom of the enclave then has things like a glassteel dome that basically acts as a lake in the center, and there's additional glassteel domes dotting the bottom surface for small ponds. In addition, on the bottom would be several bays for holding flying ships with elevators/stairs/ladders to the surface city above. This same concept might be used for "limited use" buildings, such as a small sports arena that might only be occupied 5% of the time to maximize use of the top for everyday stuff and the bottom for tedious things that they feel they need but don't want to waste the prime real estate for. Also, there would be buildings on the bottom that act as warehouses, experimental bunkers, and basements that are reached from the surface above and may have reverse gravity effects in those areas. On the top side may be constructed hills and such so that certain buildings naturally sit higher than surrounding territory (either for a view or for defensive reasons). This isn't of course to say that the top might not have multi-story buildings and such, but if something is just a place to say "park a ship", doing so on the underside would be useful. There may be "premium" parking on the top as well or places for emergency landings, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 31 Jan 2021 16:54:01 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11855 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2021 : 17:35:55
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Hmmm, kind of glad I hadn't actually started drawing doubloon yet. The more I think on it, even the above can be improved on. For instance
two flat plates separated by air (like an oreo with no filling). A series of towers connects these flat plates on the outer rim. In the center the top flat plate, a large circle of material is removed, and a hollow round cylinder of glassteel is installed to also connect the two plates. The circle of removed earth from the top plate can be used to line the bottom of this glassteel container just so the bottom has "earth" in it for plants to grow in, etc.... This round cylinder collects rain and becomes basically a giant flying aquarium. On the underside of each plate, a general type of aqueduct and pipe plumbing can be installed and accessed in addition to what I was describing above. Valves allow water to be released from the central lake periodically to wash through this "undercity plumbing". There may also be smaller ponds that are periodically "flushed and refilled" on the lower tier from the large central lake, creating something like public swimming areas on the lower tier. Flying ships can land on the central lake accessible from the top plate. Other ships can fly into the hangar bays located on the bottoms of each plate. The upper plate is open to the sky and beautiful and for the rich. The lower plate is for the poorer folk or for venues that can be accessed from above but entirely enclosed (for instance a theatre, a sports stadium, a strip club, a slave auction, a prison, etc....).
Oh, and obviously one must fill the giant aquarium with fish (mostly non-combative and edible ones, pretty ones if they taste good, but nothing that might be a threat to the enclave).
This concept can obviously even be expanded into triple, quadruple, etc.... tiers. At most, I see it going to maybe all of 3 tiers though. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 31 Jan 2021 17:45:01 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 02:36:36
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quote:
That is why I suggested that the three survivors were the only ones that were higher off the ground than usual because
Not to rain on your storm, or Buffy, because I'm sure she deserves a nice party  but there's a bigger reason to fly high: the phaerimm.
It's stated *somewhere* in the boxed set that enclaves started flying higher near the end to avoid the phaerimm magic-drains. It's logical that many enclaves would move outside Netheril as well, but given that Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath were *inside* Netheril at the time of the Fall, and that they were not brought down by the phaerimm, it's a given that they would be flying high.
But I agree with George... not *miles* high. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 01 Feb 2021 02:40:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 03:43:20
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
It's logical that many enclaves would move outside Netheril as well, but given that Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath were *inside* Netheril at the time of the Fall, and that they were not brought down by the phaerimm, it's a given that they would be flying high.
It is logical that they would move outside Netheril... But canon says otherwise, and fails to give any reasons why. I've seen some arguments about food production/transport put forth, but the fact that a handful of cities did go elsewhere shows that there wasn't any reason the others couldn't.
Canon is really problematic, here -- because there's just so many places where it doesn't make sense. |
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 12:34:55
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They largely COULDN'T go outside of Nethril, because Nethril's borders were dedined by the borders of other nations that were pushing them back (per canon - LEoF I think).
I'd imagine flying Enclaves were like American aircraft carriers: hugely powerful in battle, but too valuable/expensive to commit in a direct battle unless victory was assured. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 12:45:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The DMs Revenge
They largely COULDN'T go outside of Nethril, because Nethril's borders were dedined by the borders of other nations that were pushing them back (per canon - LEoF I think).
I'd imagine flying Enclaves were like American aircraft carriers: hugely powerful in battle, but too valuable/expensive to commit in a direct battle unless victory was assured.
Except we know that they did go outside Netheril's borders. We know of several enclaves that went beyond Netheril's borders, like the two that wound up in the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Borders in fantasy settings are rarely anything more than conceptual. Even if it's a geological feature, there's usually a huge difference between a claimed border and the actual areas of control. |
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 12:54:00
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That's a fair point, but:
a) bodies of water are often neutral territory unless fully encompassed by a nation.
b) anyplace where another empire would freak out and marshall all their forces to destroy an enclave before it could attack - I would consider to be across a border. Anyplace else the Netherese would probably consider "theirs".
But yes, borders are squishy, especially when you can fly your cities around. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6362 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 13:41:02
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Netherils enclaves were unlike aircraft carriers because each archmage in charge ruled his own mini kingdom and owed no allegiance to netheril at all (until the end of the shadowed age when the triumvirate took charge). Up until that point in history each enclave was independent of the nation of netheril and interacted with it as trading partners (not always friendly, sometimes the enclaves took what they wanted) because they needed supplies and people to survive, while the cities needed the protection and magic of the enclaves.
High Netheril was not a real political entity beyond the fact that most archmages wanted to emulate ioulaum (who was the best and most respected archmage in the history of netheril) and so would often do as he suggested out of respect (later when Karsus took charge the same happened but out of fear). Otherwise they competed against one another for the best spots (above Netherils cities), fought with each other over pointless slights, and behaved like entitled thugs are wont to behave.
So netheril could never compete with cormanthyr because it could never act in concert (each enclave did as it wished) and the elves would attack enclaves whenever they saw them. Low Netheril was the true nation but it relied on the enclaves for protection (its armies weren't great).
So we see most enclaves leaving Netherils borders went west to the savage frontier. Larloch must have skirted north around cormanthyr to come to narfell. Movement was not free just because they could fly. The elves of cormanthyr and the dragons of the dragon coast taught the netherese the hard way that there were greater powers in the world. And any colonist from the 1700s will tell you how hard it is to survive in wilderness, even with a ship nearby filled with guns. Pampered people need luxuries and will not survive long without them.
Of course situations change and people get desperate at the end of the shadowed age, but otherwise you have a number of large, slow flying objects that needs supplies regularly, and enemies all around (except west) so they were stuck, even if they wouldn't ever admit it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11855 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 15:26:16
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
That is why I suggested that the three survivors were the only ones that were higher off the ground than usual because
Not to rain on your storm, or Buffy, because I'm sure she deserves a nice party but there's a bigger reason to fly high: the phaerimm.
It's stated *somewhere* in the boxed set that enclaves started flying higher near the end to avoid the phaerimm magic-drains. It's logical that many enclaves would move outside Netheril as well, but given that Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath were *inside* Netheril at the time of the Fall, and that they were not brought down by the phaerimm, it's a given that they would be flying high.
But I agree with George... not *miles* high.
Were they "magic drains"?? I know they were lifedrains. Now granted, there's also the notion that the weave is linked to life, so I mean it's not outside the bounds of possibility. But I didn't think the phaerimm were draining magic? Could be wrong. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11855 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 15:50:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Netherils enclaves were unlike aircraft carriers because each archmage in charge ruled his own mini kingdom and owed no allegiance to netheril at all (until the end of the shadowed age when the triumvirate took charge). Up until that point in history each enclave was independent of the nation of netheril and interacted with it as trading partners (not always friendly, sometimes the enclaves took what they wanted) because they needed supplies and people to survive, while the cities needed the protection and magic of the enclaves.
High Netheril was not a real political entity beyond the fact that most archmages wanted to emulate ioulaum (who was the best and most respected archmage in the history of netheril) and so would often do as he suggested out of respect (later when Karsus took charge the same happened but out of fear). Otherwise they competed against one another for the best spots (above Netherils cities), fought with each other over pointless slights, and behaved like entitled thugs are wont to behave.
So netheril could never compete with cormanthyr because it could never act in concert (each enclave did as it wished) and the elves would attack enclaves whenever they saw them. Low Netheril was the true nation but it relied on the enclaves for protection (its armies weren't great).
<snip for brevity>
These are good points. Just one other thing to keep in mind here and it's a pitfall that I fall into myself. I think its also a pitfall that the AUTHOR of Netheril:Empire of Magic fell into, because it is an easy thing to do. When we think of Netheril as this millenia spanning empire that's growing and creating these enclaves, we have to consider one fact. We have EnclaveX that gets created by ArchmageX. We have EnclaveY that gets created by ArchmageY. We have EnclaveZ that gets created by ArchmageZ.
Well, then ArchmageX has 63 children over 650 years (or maybe just 1 or 2... it doesn't matter) with 14 wives (or just 1... it doesn't matter). ArchmageX then dies, gets killed, gets trapped in stasis, disappears on some other plane.... or whatever. He is no longer there to rule EnclaveX. Who takes over? Does EnclaveX go to his oldest child like an inheritance? Maybe the most powerful child? Maybe its split between all the children. Does the next most powerful archmage from the enclave take over, and the children get nothing? Does it become the purview of a council of mages? Does a powerful archmage from another enclave swoop in and begin ruling over the people that have lived there? How does EnclaveX begin to govern itself when its creator is gone? I mean EnclaveX isn't destroyed. Its mythallar still works. Its got thousands of people living on it and tons of quasi-magic items to defend itself. There may be another thousand years before Netheril falls (or more). So, what happens to the Enclave?
So, that's EnclaveX...
What happens to EnclaveY and EnclaveZ when ArchmageY and ArchmageZ die? Since they are essentially independent entities, they may do something ENTIRELY different from what EnclaveX did. Does one create a inherited Mageking monarchy, another a magocratic council, another become a traitor and swear fealty to another nation, and a fourth becomes some kind of outreaching collective allowing in mages of all races and nations (and maybe a fifth goes the reverse and becomes decidedly worried about "remaining Netheril pure").
This is why I really question how much we really know about what happened to Netheril, and its why I believe we only have a part of the story. I think as time went on, its people just became too different and were no longer even cohesive enough to be considered even remotely a nation. A lot of enclaves may have become like a travelling group of nomads. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 16:00:31
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My point was more, the enclaves would go wherever they wanted, unless checked by others. I'm sure they thought they were masters of the world, but some places were not worth the bother.
If they could do whatever they wanted in/above Narfell, then Narfell would have quickly just been seen as part of Netheril.
Perhaps I/we need better words here: In my opinion, Netheril was wherever the enclaves could/did usually go. As opposed the geographical location that later be known as the Anauroch.
So, it'd be hard for the enclaves to go outside of their domain of control (which they and others would refer to as Netheril), as it would have already have expanded (and/or continuously be expanding) to include all locations feasible. With the caveat that the enclaves were somehow still tied to the geography of Low Netheril for some reason (resources or some such). |
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 16:04:00
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"This is why I really question how much we really know about what happened to Netheril, and its why I believe we only have a part of the story. I think as time went on, its people just became too different and were no longer even cohesive enough to be considered even remotely a nation. A lot of enclaves may have become like a travelling group of nomads."
Yes, this. I'm seeing the Netherese more and more as nomadic barbarians, but with stone buildings, wizards and literature. Their lifestyle patterns would be very similar. It's easy to see how some of them would go on to be the Uthgardt.
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Edited by - The DMs Revenge on 01 Feb 2021 18:48:34 |
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Unaccounted For Netherese Cities
