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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6383 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2021 : 17:04:53

Gathering details on the alimir mountains and found a few stray threads that worked together to form a few dates.

So the beholders of the alimir mountains drove the duergar out of ultoksamrin (which they took from the dwarves) after the gray dwarves had trouble with drow of guallidurth. Vhaeraunian drow then took over the caverns, so the beholders mist have been defeated.

That placed the defeat of the duergar at some point during the battle with beholders around -170 DR, I put this at -168 the year of furrowed brows

The drow must have come from the forest of mir which was inhabited between -790 and -750 DR.

Then there is a stray mention in a dragon mag of a Mithril sword called Guardian which was created by duergar in the marching mountains and then enchanted by jhanniloth puiral, who is a now dead member of the twisted rune.

Does anyone know how old jhaniloth puiral is. I know she was exiled from silverymoon but have no date. Could she be old enough to have lived during the eye tyrant wars or did she just find the sword and enchanted it long after it was created.

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6680 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 00:15:31

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Gathering details on the alimir mountains and found a few stray threads that worked together to form a few dates.

So the beholders of the alimir mountains drove the duergar out of ultoksamrin (which they took from the dwarves) after the gray dwarves had trouble with drow of guallidurth. Vhaeraunian drow then took over the caverns, so the beholders mist have been defeated.

That placed the defeat of the duergar at some point during the battle with beholders around -170 DR, I put this at -168 the year of furrowed brows

The drow must have come from the forest of mir which was inhabited between -790 and -750 DR.

Then there is a stray mention in a dragon mag of a Mithril sword called Guardian which was created by duergar in the marching mountains and then enchanted by jhanniloth puiral, who is a now dead member of the twisted rune.

Does anyone know how old jhaniloth puiral is. I know she was exiled from silverymoon but have no date. Could she be old enough to have lived during the eye tyrant wars or did she just find the sword and enchanted it long after it was created.

Lands of Intrigue - Book 3 Erlkazar (p.21) and Undermountain - Stardock adventure (p.14). She died in 1330 DR.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 30 Jan 2021 00:15:48

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6383 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 11:21:22

Cheers. I can infer from the info that jhaniloth was around when the twisted rune senior leadership killed each other as she became senior member. I'm assuming she was a lich by then so she could be around as early 1000 dr but nothing says she couldnt have been alive a lot earlier than that (although perhaps it's not feasible for her to have been a lich before shoon vii as that would make her a demilich now.

I'm guessing she found the sword or found a last enclave of duergar and had them make the sword before killing them.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6383 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2021 : 19:35:27

So Zanassu, supposedly a demon lord summoned by the aranea to the spider swamp. Banished by Qysara Shoon V back to the Abyss. Didnt return for 1000 years to the day.

All seems fine, but Demon Lords are very difficult to summon (see Eltab), they dont like being summoned (it takes them away from their power games in the Abyss and the Blood War). Could a bunch of aranea really summon a demon lord?

Qysara Shoon V (a non magic user) banishes Zanassu back to the Abyss, could a ruler with no magical or fighting skill defeat a demon lord even if she did have a large amount of magic items.

Zanassu was banished from the spider swamp for 1000 years. Empire of the Sands says that he can return every 10 years. Why the discrepancy?

Deities and Demigods states that Zanassu was slain by Selvetarm sometime after his banishment and that possibly another demon appeared in the Spider Swamp in 1292 DR (1000 years after his banishment). Its almost certain another demon lord would not appear in Zanassu's place for the paltry worship of a few hundred aranea. Could this demon be a servant of Selvetarm, hence why he reappears every 10 years because if he is slain another replacement is sent 10 years later.

The whole story of Zanassu seems inconsistent with existing demon lore to me. Summoning a demon lord and keeping him on Faerun would require impressive magical might, but there is nothing in the history in the Spider Swamp area capable of that magical feat except for Calim and Ajhuu, and its doubtful they would bother with a demon lord. The only thing i can think of is the drow of Clan Hune in the Fourth Crown War.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36878 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 01:27:03

I would say that with true names and the right rituals, yes, non-spellcasters could banish a demon, and non-casters (or weak ones) could summon one. It's easier as a powerful caster, to do either, and considerably more dangerous, but still doable.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6383 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2021 : 19:13:48

So the Eye Tyrant Cliffs, created by beholders and their human slaves following a battle while the beholders were in charge of Calimshan. Apparently during this battle the wizards tried to use earthquakes to sever the connections between the Alimir Hive and the surface (presumably to stop reinforcements).

This puts the battle and diorama creation somewhere between -1428 and -1403/2 DR.

Mount Phevos depicts the humans (emaciated, scarred, bedraggled) but with a dozen flying wizards around them. The humans are incredibly detailed, lifesaving carvings, and hidden messages in alzhedo are carved into the statues.

Mount Kahdas depicts three 100ft tall beholders.

There is a secret door behind the cliffs of Mount Phevos that leads to a series of caverns that were used by rebels and escaped slaves. This secret door is opened by touching an amulet of one of the wizards, there is a legend about this door that those worshipping Mystra can find the door.

Drizzt Do Urdens Guide mentions that there is a tunnel linking the Alimir Hive to Mount Phevos so it looks like that at some point in the past the beholders discovered this secret chamber and connected it to their hive.

One thing that puzzles me is why the connection to Mystra. Mystra was of course not around in -1428 DR. Mystryl was a Netherese pantheon religion and so had no connection to Calimshan. I'm not aware of the Calishite pantheon having a magic deity. So how / why / when was such a connection made, was it later, was it a ploy by beholders to lure mages to explore the caverns and get enslaved.

Demzer
Senior Scribe

879 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2021 : 09:36:40

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

One thing that puzzles me is why the connection to Mystra. Mystra was of course not around in -1428 DR. Mystryl was a Netherese pantheon religion and so had no connection to Calimshan. I'm not aware of the Calishite pantheon having a magic deity. So how / why / when was such a connection made, was it later, was it a ploy by beholders to lure mages to explore the caverns and get enslaved.

Calimshan had magic and magic users way before Netheril existed, the best bet would be that Mystr* did a really good job at wiping references to the local deity of magic it subsumed.

After all, we only know of a handful of names from the "original" pantheon of the south, plenty of room for a lot of deities that got subsumed/merged/killed like what happened to the Talfiric and Jhaamdathan ones.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6383 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2021 : 09:47:41

My thoughts as well, just wanted to see what other opinions were.

Thus far for Calimshan i have the following deities; the One Sun (which was probably the main deity), Bhaelros (one of 4 or more genie deities), Sune, and Ilmater.

Magic may not have been worshipped in its own right but part of Bhaelros and his destructive power, part of the One Sun and his protection of Calimshan, part of Ilmater and his healing, etc.

Curiously the blurb mentions that touching an amulet of one of the wizards opens the door but it does not mention what the amulet is. Maybe if i can find what type of amulets Calishites wore around that time then maybe that will provide a clue.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
12022 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2021 : 13:34:22

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

One thing that puzzles me is why the connection to Mystra. Mystra was of course not around in -1428 DR. Mystryl was a Netherese pantheon religion and so had no connection to Calimshan. I'm not aware of the Calishite pantheon having a magic deity. So how / why / when was such a connection made, was it later, was it a ploy by beholders to lure mages to explore the caverns and get enslaved.

Calimshan had magic and magic users way before Netheril existed, the best bet would be that Mystr* did a really good job at wiping references to the local deity of magic it subsumed.

After all, we only know of a handful of names from the "original" pantheon of the south, plenty of room for a lot of deities that got subsumed/merged/killed like what happened to the Talfiric and Jhaamdathan ones.

This brings back to mind something I was thinking about yesterday. During the "era" of Netheril (mostly say its later years as its enclaves were possibly spreading out).... what cultures canonically had "spellcasters" throughout Faerun and the Hordelands?

There were obviously all the elven ones (which I'd have to hunt down what was where then... unless someone has a list)

There were some dwarven cultures, but I'd suspect them to be more priestly

Then there were the human empires like Talfir shadow magic and song magic users, Jhaamdath's psionicists, Calimshan's mixed bag of spellcasters, Narfell's demonbinders and necromancers, Raumathar's battlemages and eventually its construct makers, Mulhorand's "artificers" and wizards, Imaskar's "artificers" and probably mixed bag of spellcasters that also includes the people that eventually take over in the Raurin, Unther's spellcasters which are unclear,

Did I leave any out? I imagine I did.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6383 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2021 : 20:46:06

I would imagine that anywhere could have spellcasters. The weave has been large enough to encompass all of Faerun since the time of the Aearee, and anyone with a bit of experimentation can access the standardised spells stored within it.

Assigning a type of spellcaster to a nation is more one of culture than anything else. I would imagine that demonology rose to become the dominant form of spellcasting in Narfell because of the demons that came to influence the late ages of that land. Raumathar embraced magics that would counter those of Narfell.

There were probably other types of casters within all those nations, but they were not embraced by the rulers or the people and so their traditions and knowledge became lost in time.

Just my thoughts

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6383 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2021 : 20:49:59

Noticed on page 7/8 of Empires of the Shining Sea that the text does not flow from one page to the other

quote:
In all, the eclipse references cover nearly a third of El Nar'ysr's total prophecies, and over 300 of them fol

quote:
gogues and the Prophecy of the Dragon and the Stallion to the more poetically minded) wherein "The Dragon of the West and the Stallion of the East shall meet and the dust of their fury shall eclipse the skies."

Is this just my copy or is it everyones. Does anyone happen to know what the text should say continuing from the end of page 7.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6383 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2021 : 21:15:06

Has anyone read about the Nar'ysr

Supposedly his name translates to something roughly like phoenix. He made all these predictions but half the text about him makes it sound like he was around only a few hundred years ago.

quote:
The greatest of Abbalayar seers is known only as the Nar'ysr, though to Northerners, he is far more famous as the Phoenix of Calimshan, from a loose translation of his name when the Herald Swordswreath recorded many of his prophecies over 400 years ago. The Nar'ysr was an uncommon man from all accounts, his skin reddish and his hair as gold as the morning sun. His parents, siblings, and immediate children exhibited no such unique marks at birth, though some descendants have gained some of them in the centuries since then.

Centuries since indicates a few hundred years which would be consistent with Herald Swordswreath documenting the prophecies (perhaps from the Nar'ysr himself)

However, its said he predicted the genie wars so at the youngest he would have been around 7500 years old (the genie wars i believe is the Era of Skyfire).

You cant predict an event after it has happened so i would be tempted to suggest that El Nar'ysr and the Abbalayar he founded were around at the time of the genies. Is El Nar'ysr still alive or did he die a long time ago or perhaps only recently.

El indicates a familial link, and nar'ysr could be mistakenly translated to phoenix so i'd suggest a link between this being and a fiery avian creature, maybe a dragon.

Anyone have any thoughts on El Nar'ysr. As a half dragon or polymorphed dragon he could have lived for a long time, and defended the Abbalayar from many threats.

Kentinal
Great Reader

4693 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2021 : 21:26:13

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Noticed on page 7/8 of Empires of the Shining Sea that the text does not flow from one page to the other

quote:
In all, the eclipse references cover nearly a third of El Nar'ysr's total prophecies, and over 300 of them fol

quote:
gogues and the Prophecy of the Dragon and the Stallion to the more poetically minded) wherein "The Dragon of the West and the Stallion of the East shall meet and the dust of their fury shall eclipse the skies."

Is this just my copy or is it everyones. Does anyone happen to know what the text should say continuing from the end of page 7.

One copy uploaded reads the same way. So clearly more then one copy.

Hopefully Steven E. Schend might be able to answer. You could try asking, or maybe he was asked and there is an answer.

Demzer
Senior Scribe

879 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2021 : 09:01:41

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Noticed on page 7/8 of Empires of the Shining Sea that the text does not flow from one page to the other

quote:
In all, the eclipse references cover nearly a third of El Nar'ysr's total prophecies, and over 300 of them fol

quote:
gogues and the Prophecy of the Dragon and the Stallion to the more poetically minded) wherein "The Dragon of the West and the Stallion of the East shall meet and the dust of their fury shall eclipse the skies."

Is this just my copy or is it everyones. Does anyone happen to know what the text should say continuing from the end of page 7.

One copy uploaded reads the same way. So clearly more then one copy.

Hopefully Steven E. Schend might be able to answer. You could try asking, or maybe he was asked and there is an answer.

That entire passage (phrase going from bottom of page 7 to start of page 8) for my copy reads as follows:

quote:
In all, the eclipse references cover nearly a third of El Nar'ysr's total prophecies, and over 300 of them follow the first eclipse prophecy (known as Eclipse Prophecy 1 to pedagogues and the Prophecy of the Dragon and the Stallion to the more poetically minded) wherein "The Dragon of the West and the Stallion of the East shall meet and the dust of their fury shall eclipse the skies."

Demzer
Senior Scribe

879 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2021 : 09:15:33

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Thus far for Calimshan i have the following deities; the One Sun (which was probably the main deity), Bhaelros (one of 4 or more genie deities), Sune, and Ilmater.

You are missing Anachtyr from the list of those we are almost sure. Then I think Shar (still one of the strongest faiths with a huge and non-hidden temple), Istishia (at least two temples noted) and Ibrandul might have been among the "originals", Selune might have been an original or early interloper (the Sleeping Legion is quite old but not that old).

Speaking of Istishia, it's possible all four of the big elemental gods were worshipped at the time of the genies but later on, with (demi)humanity dominating, probably only Istishia's worship held on for the majority of the population because water is the most important resource in a huge part of the country.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6383 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2021 : 10:13:14

Took a look at the Abbalayar, they seem to have existed since before Calim's time, so assuming Nar'ysr is their progenitor then he also must have existed before then.

There are hints at djinn heritage and the description of the eyelids and strange eyes and hair and colouring is bird or lizard like, i'm thinking that Mount Abbalayat was the home of Xaxathart the Retributor, who ruled over Calimshan and Tethyr as a Dragon Overlord before being killed by Tethir.

Like many successful dragons, he kept a tribe of humans as his slaves and likely interbred with them to a limited degree. After his death the half dragons ruled over the humans and kept the home in Mount Abbalayat going until Calim arrived.

Now we know that Calim warred with the dragons, its also said that the Abbalayar were allowed to live here unharmed by Calim. I'm thinking that some kind of a deal was struck with them and perhaps as part of that deal a child was sired. The Nar'ysr was the child of a half dragon descendant of Xaxathart and a prominent djinn (perhaps the Astronomer), in return for the dragon secrets of binding genies into vessels and allies against the dragons.

So Nar'ysr is part dragon, part djinn, making him very unique, possibly immortal, and in this case possessing of unique powers of prophecy.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6383 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2021 : 10:20:38

Forgot about Anachtyr

Not sure i'd place Shar or Selune in Calimshan. They are most definitely Netherese, and there is no connection between ancient Netheril and Calimshan that i'm aware of. Ibrandul makes more sense as a deity representing darkness moreso as a foil to the everpresent and overbearing sun above.

THe elemental powers i think may have come later. I think the slaves were forced to worship Calim at first. When he fell the Coramshites rejected all aspects of genie culture, trying to return to their original tribal roots (ancestor worship, beast worship, etc).

The Erehnirs revived genie worship, but wisely stayed away from Calim or Memnon, probably choosing famous rivals or contemporaries known for great feats, and i've seen indications that there were four and these four probably represented the djinn, marid, dao, and efreet and thus also represent the four elements.

After the Erehnirs genie worship fails again but perhaps the idea of worshipping the elements is deemed okay and so elemental cults grow. I dont think these were Ishtishia, Grumbar, Kossuth, and Akadi at that time (although maybe Akadi), but when the larger more monolithic elemental cults that dominate Faerun today were imported into Calimshan they quickly subsumed the native cults.

Calishites seem to have no qualms about letting others use whatever terms they like to refer to Calishite ideas and institutions and items (they do not want to offend anyone). As more foreigners move into Calimshan the new names get used more often until it replaces the original name without any issues from anyone.

Demzer
Senior Scribe

879 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2021 : 13:40:28

I used "original" with quotes because it's kind of difficult for me to decide which one is the original I would want to recapture: the pre-Calim indigenous human population, the slaves that came with the genies or the mix that forged it's own path after Calim and Memnon's fall?

In the first case, I don't think they had a big or even "complex" pantheon (meaning they had deities of basic needs and forces of nature but nothing as exotic as Deneir or Siamorphe or Bhaal), maybe you can get inspiration from the Arthraen pantheon in Aglarond for a similar primitive human society. I think Ibrandul fits well within this frame as the protector lurking in caverns, which humans had to use for a few millenia while trying to survive the warring elves, giants and dragons. A subset of the indigenous population probably worshiped either directly the giant and dragon overlords or indirectly the giantish and draconic pantheon (or maybe even the elves and the elven one ...).

The second case, the slaves, maybe worshipped (in secret) the Zakharan pantheon in addition to the genies themselves and probably the elemental lords (even including the "lower" princes, the good and evil ones).

The third case, it's a mix of the two but without the dictates of the genies, of the dragon lords, of the giants and of anything else so might have been the most humano-centric pantheon and probably quite complex too.

I disagree on the elemental lords changing over time, I don't see the elemental powers being involved in the same dance routines as all other deities, stealing portfolios, subsuming others and the like. They are almost alien and always present. The locals might develop fancy names but in the end the lord of fire is and always will be Kossuth, be it -20000 DR, 1372 DR or 5000 DR. Same with the others. But this is just my preference and why I disliked the "elemental chaos" bs.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6383 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2021 : 17:13:06

The Steam Clashes.

Ajhuu rebels against a much stronger and established nation and manages to hold his own. Calim can't seem to approach Ajhuutal.

Oddly two of Ajhuu's greatest generals are killed in the Alimir Mountains, but Calim and his armies would have approached from the west, whereas the Alimir Mountains are north and east of Ajhuutal.

Calim destroyed Ajhuutal by calling upon dao allies and using great magic (the same used to call the dao it implies).

I'm wondering if Calim didnt help the Ataman of Imir to bring forth an army of Dao which attacked Ajhuutal from the Alimir Mountains (slaying Haj and Luar). THen while Ajhuu's forces were split, Calim attacked from the west and got close enough to use magic to sink the city.

There is no mention of Ajhuu and his forces facing Calim's but they would have to in order to stop Calim from approaching Ajhuutal, so its likely that the two leaders fought at the end of the Steam Clashes before Calim went on to destroy Ajhuutal.

It says Ajhuu was destroyed, but no detail was given. I wonder what happened to him. Wouldnt it be cruel if he were imprisoned in stone at the border of his realm (the River of Ice perhaps) to forever watch over his failures and the glory of Calim's empire.

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6680 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2021 : 00:35:45

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Noticed on page 7/8 of Empires of the Shining Sea that the text does not flow from one page to the other

quote:
In all, the eclipse references cover nearly a third of El Nar'ysr's total prophecies, and over 300 of them fol

quote:
gogues and the Prophecy of the Dragon and the Stallion to the more poetically minded) wherein "The Dragon of the West and the Stallion of the East shall meet and the dust of their fury shall eclipse the skies."

Is this just my copy or is it everyones. Does anyone happen to know what the text should say continuing from the end of page 7.

"In all, the eclipse references cover nearly a third of El Nar'ysr's total prophecies, and over 300 of them follow the first eclipse prophecy (known as Eclipse Prophecy 1 to pedagogues and ... etc"

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

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