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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4435 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 15:16:27
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
I suppose the positive of that is that it puts more of an emphasis on previous Realms lore and if people do want to get involved in the Realms, it would likely be through a 3e or prior route.
Why 3e or prior? Considering that the 4E Realms (things that haven't changed since the Sundering) are the most relevant era, with it simply being a few years back? Wouldn't it make sense that info during that time would still be pertinent or even on-going in a 5E timeline? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 17:33:17
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All they would have to do is provide some real updates to the Realms, and that would be new content.
Or, instead of bringing back a past setting without updating the timeline at all, bring it back and move the timeline at least a decade. That, too, would be new content.
It doesn't have to be a brand new world -- just give us information we don't already have in some format. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Dec 2020 17:36:03 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 20:28:57
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Great Reader Diffan,
quote:
Why 3e or prior? Considering that the 4E Realms (things that haven't changed since the Sundering) are the most relevant era, with it simply being a few years back? Wouldn't it make sense that info during that time would still be pertinent or even on-going in a 5E timeline?
I say 3e and prior to the greater volume of lore, as it was actively supported by WotC/TSR and was consistently produced. My issue with 4e lore is that its relevance is predicated on a schism that wasn't created for an actual story, but rather, product development for a growth strategy, not maintaining the current market segment consumers. That's why, at least for myself, everything that came after the Spellplague was just not good. Too many holes from all over the world. Heck, what happened in the continent of Kara-Tur and Zakhara? I think there were maybe a few lines on it, but I'm uncertain. The fix that came out seemed like a patch at best, because there still wasn't a real storyline reason behind the Spellplague. The desire to foster and develop a new market segment for future products was the actual reason. So, the foundation of everything that came in 4e/5e was flawed from the onset. I feel that thereafter anything that came had the stain and failure from the Spellplague.
The feeling of the lore from 4e to 5e is that WotC knows they screwed up in the worst way they could have, and so begrudgingly walked up to the line without crossing it to 'repair' the damage. The repair was nothing short of insulting, as evidenced by the swiss cheese lore sandwich they started handing out in the lore soup lines. I certainly could even have stomached the Spellplague if its creation wasn't solely meant to appeal to a new market segment that WotC wanted to develop and foster, and in so doing took an intergalactic dump on the pre-existing Realms fans. With the massive c*ap that WotC did take for lore during 4e/5e, the ground should be fertilized for about.... a billion years, for new lore. They just have to get the people out to work it.
By the way: no umbrage with you good sir! :) I appreciate the question!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
222 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 20:36:42
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I'm thinking that the best option they (WotC) had, considering they didn't seem to want to pour too many resources into the realms, would have been to release small snippets, articles, booklets of realms lore consistent with the old, and then focused their resources on pushing out one or two other settings, like Eberron or Greyhawk. Or, if they wanted to have new stuff, pick any of their MtG settings and gone crazy with that.
EDIT: The dilemma they're facing is that to continue making money they're forced to produce new core rulesets. And updating the settings becomes costly the bigger they are. Now, the realms haven't been the default setting since 2nd edition if I recall correctly, with 3rd being Greyhawk and 4th Eberron? So it would seem that they're trying to do just that. So the question that remains is why they decided to do what they did to the realms at all, instead of just leaving it. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
Edited by - Returnip on 14 Dec 2020 20:40:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 21:44:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
I'm thinking that the best option they (WotC) had, considering they didn't seem to want to pour too many resources into the realms, would have been to release small snippets, articles, booklets of realms lore consistent with the old, and then focused their resources on pushing out one or two other settings, like Eberron or Greyhawk. Or, if they wanted to have new stuff, pick any of their MtG settings and gone crazy with that.
Once upon a time, in addition to novels and magazines and the sourcebooks, WotC was putting out web content, as well -- new articles were put up almost daily.
Yeah, I get that that kinda thing isn't exactly economical... But I'd happily pay a subscription price if they went back to that sort of thing.
Actually, look at Kobold Press. They have a Patreon setup -- for like $3 a month, they put out monthly adventures, about 12 pages long, and every two or three months, a 30 page book of lore. And they put out free web content on top of that. For their sourcebooks or big adventures, they do Kickstarters for people that want the stuff first, and then the stuff is available for sale to everyone afterward.
Or look at Paizo, the company that actually dethroned WotC as the king of the RPG market, albeit for a short time. Their Adventure Path books come out monthly. Each one has solid lore, and a bit of fiction, and the adventure content. And six of these books are a complete campaign. On top of that, they release rulebooks and source material for two campaign settings.
Shadowrun is another setting that's been around for a while, where they're still producing new content on a regular basis -- lore, rules, and fiction. Both of the most recent Shadowrun sourcebooks I read were almost pure lore (and they do the unreliable narrator thing so much better, too!).
There is clearly a market out there for this kind of stuff -- why is WotC, who created that market, staying out of it? It seems to me that they're trying so hard not spend money developing anything that they're leaving money on the table -- and these other companies are happily picking it up. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 23:15:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is clearly a market out there for this kind of stuff -- why is WotC, who created that market, staying out of it? It seems to me that they're trying so hard not spend money developing anything that they're leaving money on the table -- and these other companies are happily picking it up.
Wooly, do you think Hasbro is calling WoTC's shots? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 01:32:21
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I was one of those who was introduced to the Realms via the novels (my queerplatonic partner, who played D&D with her family, told me about them). Being a bookworm, novels are a good way to get me interested in things lol. The novels (and fan community, such as these halls) made me want to further dive into the Realms, and even though I've only actually played D&D a few times, I've become quite interested in it, if that makes sense. I'll buy the source books for lore (though I haven't yet RotFM).
With 5e (and with streams like Critical Role) the interest in D&D has surged, and, particularly on Reddit, I have seen a number of posts with something like, "hi, I am new to the Realms, I was introduced via [usually a module] and I want to know more. Where should I start?" Or "Where can I find more information about X?" So, with 5e, we are seeing an increased number of newcomers. But a number of the posts I have seen also ask about where they can find more information (as 5e doesn't provide it). As a sum, this is probably a very small group of people (however prevalent the posts may seem), and many are also intimidated by the dearth of content. A large number of newer gamers don't want to sift through "stuffy books", or even one book that has too much detail for them (though with Critical Role, I would argue that many people are, in fact interested in lore, so I do feel like WotC may be misreading their audience--or at least a larger portion than they realize--a bit).
I agree with the OP that there is a difference between being a fan and just liking something (what I may call a casual fan). A lot of things that were considered "nerdy" even a decade ago are more mainstream now. Marvel is a good example of this. There are those who watch the movies and enjoy them, but they don't read the comics or really delve deep into Marvel. They don't have forum discussions about the Marvel universe, or get upset or excited about the changes. They see them as good movies, nothing more. These are the "casual fans", or people who "like" Marvel. They are still unlikely to be labelled "nerds" for liking a Marvel movie. Nerds are the fans.
As a fan of the Realms, I am indeed saddened by WotC's treatment of it. It's just a commodity for them at this point, and I do indeed feel like they are largely ignoring their established fanbase, appealing only to newer fans, changing lore on a dime, with little to now explanation, or ignoring it completely. This gives new fans (or at least those who "like" it) a very different perception and understanding of the Realms.
While I can understand the "make it your own" approach, I think they've taken it a bit too far, considering gamers have always done that. You don't have to wipe the slate or give bare bones in order for gamers to spin it. Indeed, more detail may actually beneficial in that.
Someone mentioned the obelisks allowing WotC to do whatever they want--I'm curious about this, as I haven't bought the book. I know they involve time travel. Does this mean WotC can essentially erase things by saying "time travel"? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 03:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is clearly a market out there for this kind of stuff -- why is WotC, who created that market, staying out of it? It seems to me that they're trying so hard not spend money developing anything that they're leaving money on the table -- and these other companies are happily picking it up.
Wooly, do you think Hasbro is calling WoTC's shots?
I've *heard* that that is the case -- but it's all secondhand or flat-out supposition. I don't have enough information to be able to say yes or no.
It certainly could be that Hasbro has said "you must make this much profit" and that's what they're trying to do... But it also could be what we've seen since 3E came out: more and more designers that are treating the Realms (and other settings, now) like a salad bar, and who appear to not have any investment in or regard for the setting. It could be one thing, it could be the other, it could be some mix of the two... It could be something else. We could speculate, but the only things we know of for certain is that this trend of "prior lore doesn't matter" started a while ago and has accelerated. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 06:31:15
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Great Reader CorellonsDevout,
My understanding is that the implication is that the obelisks are a lore get out of jail free card, however, I haven't delved deeply into it myself.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 11:47:57
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Looks as if I will cough up the money and buy the Rime book just to check these obelisks the community keeps mentioning. All Toril needs at this point is for a loudmouth like Volo tell everyone about the portals, get a few details wrong, and invite a reality-shredding free-for-all.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,
My understanding is that the implication is that the obelisks are a lore get out of jail free card, however, I haven't delved deeply into it myself.
Best regards
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 15:05:02
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Senior Scribe Delnyn,
quote:
Looks as if I will cough up the money and buy the Rime book just to check these obelisks the community keeps mentioning. All Toril needs at this point is for a loudmouth like Volo tell everyone about the portals, get a few details wrong, and invite a reality-shredding free-for-all.
Well, let me know what your interpretation on the situation is! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 16:07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Looks as if I will cough up the money and buy the Rime book just to check these obelisks the community keeps mentioning. All Toril needs at this point is for a loudmouth like Volo tell everyone about the portals, get a few details wrong, and invite a reality-shredding free-for-all.
I got the book as part of a buy-two-get-a-third-free thing from Amazon, but I've not taken the time to look at it, yet... I'm behind on reading my Kobold Press stuff, I've got a couple older Shadowrun sourcebooks I'm reading, and I recently got the pdf of the new Tharkold book for Torg Eternity -- and given what WotC's been giving us, of late, compared to what they used to offer, WotC stuff no longer hits the top of the gaming to-read list. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4435 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 17:28:27
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader Diffan,
quote:
Why 3e or prior? Considering that the 4E Realms (things that haven't changed since the Sundering) are the most relevant era, with it simply being a few years back? Wouldn't it make sense that info during that time would still be pertinent or even on-going in a 5E timeline?
I say 3e and prior to the greater volume of lore, as it was actively supported by WotC/TSR and was consistently produced.
Sure, 3e and prior had more supplements but that doesn't mean that 4E Lore wasn't actively supported. Look at the literally dozens of Living Forgotten Realms adventures that pushed a lot of storylines in various areas of the Realms and further - the dozens of Dragon/Dungeon articles detailing FR Lore. I wish I had a compiled list of FR-Specific database of the 4E Content, which would be great to quick-reference things on the fly. I do have all the DDI content, but going though that would be a project I don't have time for. Suffice to say FR was supported in 4E, though just not with hard-covered books.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
My issue with 4e lore is that its relevance is predicated on a schism that wasn't created for an actual story, but rather, product development for a growth strategy, not maintaining the current market segment consumers. That's why, at least for myself, everything that came after the Spellplague was just not good.
Thats quite a disservice to the authors of said articles, IMO. To assume that the Neverwinter Campaign Setting book wasn't created to help tell stories in the Forgotten Realms is exceptionally shortsighted. Or the articles in Dragon #404 that details Kara-Tur during 4E. Or the wonderfully written articles depicting Cormyr. I'm just going to assume you don't know of the existence of these things.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Too many holes from all over the world. Heck, what happened in the continent of Kara-Tur and Zakhara? I think there were maybe a few lines on it, but I'm uncertain. The fix that came out seemed like a patch at best, because there still wasn't a real storyline reason behind the Spellplague.
You're suggesting that Shar's multiple attempts as seizing the Weave and finally succeeding (just to have it thrown in her face by it's unravelling - thus unravelling her Shadow Weave too) isn't a story? You may not like it - which is perfectly fine - but it IS a story. Further, to have Cyric in on the plot - a deity that vehemently hates Mystra - to deal the "death" blow is pretty dastardly and in-character for the guy. I'm not sure what a "real" storyline is. Are there characteristic that define what's real and what's not?
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
The desire to foster and develop a new market segment for future products was the actual reason. So, the foundation of everything that came in 4e/5e was flawed from the onset. I feel that thereafter anything that came had the stain and failure from the Spellplague.
I feel that was just one of many reasons, not the sole purpose. Look at it this way, a LOT of people complained about the Realms for a significant number of reasons. Too much lore to delve into. Too many high level NPCs running around to "Fix" problems that the PCs can do (and honestly, this one I felt too as a DM). The Gods getting into the middle of absolutely everything (look at all the RSE, the deities are the center of why they occur). The fact that the under-developed areas were practically dead (Maztica, Zakahara, Mulhorand/Unther) and being vastly under utilized that other more unique concepts filled their place. We can argue the changes that they made, but understand that these were issues that were asked to be addressed. The problem was, it wasn't addressed well.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
The feeling of the lore from 4e to 5e is that WotC knows they screwed up in the worst way they could have, and so begrudgingly walked up to the line without crossing it to 'repair' the damage. The repair was nothing short of insulting, as evidenced by the swiss cheese lore sandwich they started handing out in the lore soup lines. I certainly could even have stomached the Spellplague if its creation wasn't solely meant to appeal to a new market segment that WotC wanted to develop and foster, and in so doing took an intergalactic dump on the pre-existing Realms fans. With the massive c*ap that WotC did take for lore during 4e/5e, the ground should be fertilized for about.... a billion years, for new lore. They just have to get the people out to work it.
Honestly, this is why a lot of people need to just stick to the stuff they already have - because I doubt that anything WotC puts out will be up to "snuff" with these types of expectations. Meaning unless things revert %100 back to pre-4E in some climatic shift, you will always have the issues you bring up. There have been lots of lore for the Realms in 5E. Like I keep saying, every single adventure pushes storylines in the Realms. Every single one. And there's over a dozen now up and down the Sword Coast that cover times from 1480 up through 1493 DR (I think the current year?).
The model they're going for is adventures push the story - as it relates to the Forgotten Realms. Each other "setting" they're putting out gets about 1 book and then they're done. Ravnica and Theros aren't getting any more treatments. Not even in adventures. Eberron is done, getting their 1 book. I can assume, safely, that the next setting is going to be Dark Sun (or some other old-school setting) which will get probably 1 book and done. Hell, even Ravenloft only got 1 adventure and nothing else.
So for them to push 16 adventures in the Realms specifically (I don't count Curse of Strahd or Ghosts of Saltmarsh in there) plus the Sword Coast Adventure Guide and Volo's Guide to Monsters (which I do count as a Realms supplement), I think they've done the Realms a pretty great service thus far. I DO wish they'd go elsewhere from the Sword Coast (they did Chult and people were unhappy with some of the depictions) and they do have Adventure's League adventures (which aren't Canon) but I digress. |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
222 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 19:04:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I feel that was just one of many reasons, not the sole purpose. Look at it this way, a LOT of people complained about the Realms for a significant number of reasons. Too much lore to delve into..
So promote a different setting then rather than "resetting" the realms?
quote:
Too many high level NPCs running around to "Fix" problems that the PCs can do (and honestly, this one I felt too as a DM).
This is an interesting thing.
"Of course, there's no reason you have to stick to the official chronology at all. If you feel so inclined, you are perfectly free to recast the protagonists of the stories as your PCs, or even throw them out altogether." (Players Guide to Faerûn, p 166)
The whole bit that text is part of deals with this exact conundrum. I've never thought it a problem. If the PCs are too low level to participate in a certain conflict they'll just see draft notices on the walls, meet marching troops on the roads, and hear news by word of mouth about the big war that's going on somewhere.
If they're mid level you can use the rules from Heroes of Battle for adventuring in the middle of a war to great effect.
And if they're high level you can just recast the protagonists. Or have the PCs fight side by side with the NPCs. You can always figure out a way to make it be the PCs ultimately save the day.
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The Gods getting into the middle of absolutely everything (look at all the RSE, the deities are the center of why they occur).
Now, I don't know what an RSE is, unless you're talking about Research Software Engineering, but the fact is the gods are real in the realms. They actually exist. And if you don't like that the gods meddle in stuff, you might want to look at a different setting where they're not. Or you can flip it on them. Let the PCs become gods, and usurp the deities' powers.
quote:
The fact that the under-developed areas were practically dead (Maztica, Zakahara, Mulhorand/Unther) and being vastly under utilized that other more unique concepts filled their place. We can argue the changes that they made, but understand that these were issues that were asked to be addressed. The problem was, it wasn't addressed well.
Is it a problem that the areas are under developed though? It wouldn't matter if they were a separate setting. The themes of said regions just wasn't as popular. It's really that simple. You can't give everyone everything. If a minority is into an ancient egypt inspired setting it's not going to be worth pouring resources into books about it. It's the sad thruth. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 19:42:50
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Great Reader Diffan,
Thank you for the reply good sir! :)
quote:
Sure, 3e and prior had more supplements but that doesn't mean that 4E Lore wasn't actively supported. Look at the literally dozens of Living Forgotten Realms adventures that pushed a lot of storylines in various areas of the Realms and further - the dozens of Dragon/Dungeon articles detailing FR Lore. I wish I had a compiled list of FR-Specific database of the 4E Content, which would be great to quick-reference things on the fly. I do have all the DDI content, but going though that would be a project I don't have time for. Suffice to say FR was supported in 4E, though just not with hard-covered books.
Well, I can appreciate what you mean there. I suppose the big issue at stake here is the definition of actively supported. In the look that I did (Forgotten Realms Wiki) 3.0/3.5 had approximately (30) products for the Forgotten Realms that included (9) out of the (30) for a 30% ratio of adventures to total Realms books. I don't consider adventures to be lore, though they can include some as part of an adventure.
On the other hands, 4th edition produced (24) Forgotten Realms products, and of those (16) were adventures, for a ratio of 66.67% of adventures to Realms books.
Not only did 3.0/3.5 seemingly produce more overall of the Realms, but they focused more on the Realms setting, as opposed to 4th edition focusing more on adventures.
quote:
Thats quite a disservice to the authors of said articles, IMO. To assume that the Neverwinter Campaign Setting book wasn't created to help tell stories in the Forgotten Realms is exceptionally shortsighted. Or the articles in Dragon #404 that details Kara-Tur during 4E. Or the wonderfully written articles depicting Cormyr. I'm just going to assume you don't know of the existence of these things.
Well, to clarify, I am not speaking about quality from authors. Clearly they were hired to do work, which they did. My point was that WotC did not set out to change the Realms with another big event, i.e. Sundering. Rather, their intention was to develop a new market segment, and they had to facilitate a clean cut for that. The mechanism to do so, was chosen and that was the Spellplague. So, instead of writing material to develop the Realms, they wrote material to develop a market segment, that just so happened to have an impact on the lore. So, my umbrage isn't with the authors. It is with the planning and intent of WotC. When you look at the just the books I mentioned above (none of which are novels), clearly the focus was too move away from heavier lore to adventures.
Though, this is happening with 5th edition too, and seemingly, to a greater degree.
As to articles, I cannot speak to those at all. I don't have a compilation of Realms articles from 3.0/3.5 & 4.0 to juxtapose. It is a heck of an interesting idea though! :)
quote:
You're suggesting that Shar's multiple attempts as seizing the Weave and finally succeeding (just to have it thrown in her face by it's unravelling - thus unravelling her Shadow Weave too) isn't a story? You may not like it - which is perfectly fine - but it IS a story. Further, to have Cyric in on the plot - a deity that vehemently hates Mystra - to deal the "death" blow is pretty dastardly and in-character for the guy. I'm not sure what a "real" storyline is. Are there characteristic that define what's real and what's not?
Well, I didn't suggest that any of those are not stories. Though, I do recognize they were in 4th edition Realms material.
What I am suggesting is that they didn't continue it. They put out this enormous change to the Realms, and did in fact make some changes, but they didn't follow up with additional material to further the interest in it. They just dropped a few hand grenades, and left. If they had actually gone on with strong support of that storyline(s) they could have pulled over a great deal many more people and likely done much better by 4.0. However, looking at the adventures to overall books for the Realms in 4.0, you can tell quickly: they wanted quick to pump out material that was easier to produce.
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I feel that was just one of many reasons, not the sole purpose. Look at it this way, a LOT of people complained about the Realms for a significant number of reasons. Too much lore to delve into.
I agree with this as being a large problem. To be honest, that's why I feel sites such as Candlekeep and the FR Wiki are really important for fostering community, and trying to positively bring in and grow the love of the Realms. That makes it a heck of a lot easier to play. We see new Realms players may come in here looking to get questions answered. If the community is positive, helpful, engaged, etc., people get a good appreciation for the community, their interest grows for the Realms, they come back, and hopefully bring new people with them. :)
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Too many high level NPCs running around to "Fix" problems that the PCs can do (and honestly, this one I felt too as a DM).
I completely agree here as well. They could have fixed this with creating more lore that creates consequences for the high power people running around doing all of the stuff all of the time. How many times have we seen people like Elminster, the Blackstaff, Fzoul, Manshoon, and others, getting way involved. Personally, I would have loved to have seen some dark forces rally and go perma-murder characters like Elminster and the Blackstaff to name two characters that get a wee bit overinvolved. Have some real life consequences for the morally relative Brady Bunch crowd and others would stop and think, "Hmmm.... maybe I shouldn't be poking my nose in everyone else's business", lol.
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The Gods getting into the middle of absolutely everything (look at all the RSE, the deities are the center of why they occur).
Agreed again. This could have been handled by an Ao edict, and called it good. It could have good story with it, i.e. a novel, but I agree that the gods are way, way, way overly involved. They should be shut up, pushed back, and much less involved. Again, this didn't require a Spellplague though. It could have been handled with good story development in the current version of the Realms in 3.0/3.5.
quote:
The fact that the under-developed areas were practically dead (Maztica, Zakahara, Mulhorand/Unther) and being vastly under utilized that other more unique concepts filled their place. We can argue the changes that they made, but understand that these were issues that were asked to be addressed. The problem was, it wasn't addressed well.
I agree regarding under-development as well. Heck, Sossol, Nimbral, the Utter East, and many more locations even beyond the continents of Maztica, Zakhara and Kara-Tur, all desperately needed development, but instead, they blew everything up, and when it came time for lore, none of that stuff got love. Not the kind of love it needed. The ratios above demonstrate that.
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Honestly, this is why a lot of people need to just stick to the stuff they already have - because I doubt that anything WotC puts out will be up to "snuff" with these types of expectations. Meaning unless things revert %100 back to pre-4E in some climatic shift, you will always have the issues you bring up. There have been lots of lore for the Realms in 5E. Like I keep saying, every single adventure pushes storylines in the Realms. Every single one. And there's over a dozen now up and down the Sword Coast that cover times from 1480 up through 1493 DR (I think the current year?).
Agreed. That is in fact why I haven't purchased anything after 3.5, and likely never will. I will still advocate though! :) haha
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The model they're going for is adventures push the story - as it relates to the Forgotten Realms. Each other "setting" they're putting out gets about 1 book and then they're done. Ravnica and Theros aren't getting any more treatments. Not even in adventures. Eberron is done, getting their 1 book. I can assume, safely, that the next setting is going to be Dark Sun (or some other old-school setting) which will get probably 1 book and done. Hell, even Ravenloft only got 1 adventure and nothing else.
Yeah, I get that adventures can be a complimentary component to telling the story, but there is a serious lack of material in a well developed campaign setting for the current version of D&D to allow people to create their own adventures. That is part and parcel of playing D&D as a DM: creating your own adventures. For those that joined in 4.0/5.0, having to use adventures as the lore driver as opposed to the lore specific kinds of books that we see in 3.0/3.5 places to much of an emphasis upon reading between the lines. Just imagine if someone does that in 4.0/5.0 and from there happens to grab a 3.0/3.5 lore book that gives way more information even to a future time frame, and the player wonders: "Why is it like this?" That's why lore books are valuable.
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So for them to push 16 adventures in the Realms specifically (I don't count Curse of Strahd or Ghosts of Saltmarsh in there) plus the Sword Coast Adventure Guide and Volo's Guide to Monsters (which I do count as a Realms supplement), I think they've done the Realms a pretty great service thus far. I DO wish they'd go elsewhere from the Sword Coast (they did Chult and people were unhappy with some of the depictions) and they do have Adventure's League adventures (which aren't Canon) but I digress.
See, I agree that the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide is good to have. It's great for a system. However, they, as you pointed out, never did anything else beyond that pushing into the other parts of the Realms. We can hypothesize why they didn't go elsewhere, but the fact remains: the lore of 4.0/5.0 is abysmal relative to previous editions, and that's my main issue with 4.0/5.0 Realms.
Best regards, and as always, than you for the reply! :) I appreciate the discourse.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 19:51:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
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The company idiots want to attract all the football fans to the Forgotten Realms 6E D&D game(done in partnership with the NFL, of course). So they change the Realms by....sigh....all the NFL sports teams are teleported in to the Realms and become 'cool fantasy army sports teams'. The 49's become dwarves, the Cowboys become Minatars, the Rangers become rangers, and the Packers become gnomes and so on. Then they drain the Inner Sea to turn it into the super bowl war sports arena where each team army will fight! Grunt grunt!
And then they get a cease and desist from Games Workshop. :D
Ok so now I want to make an Aarakocra that's blue and green in my favorite NFL team's colors of the Seahawks, lol. He's gotta have the Booming Blade cantrip (legion of boom reference).
And it even forces him to stop moving! |
Edited by - Mirtek on 15 Dec 2020 19:52:04 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4435 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 20:37:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I feel that was just one of many reasons, not the sole purpose. Look at it this way, a LOT of people complained about the Realms for a significant number of reasons. Too much lore to delve into..
So promote a different setting then rather than "resetting" the realms?
Would it surprise you to think that a majority of those who were complaining were already Realms fans to begin with? Thus a new setting wouldn't appeal to them anyways. Further, they did do a new setting called Nentir Vale. The thing is, these complaints aren't difficult to "fix" without having to resort to a full implosion of the setting. They could've take a more careful approach and listened to the Realms creators and had a much better experience for everyone.
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
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Too many high level NPCs running around to "Fix" problems that the PCs can do (and honestly, this one I felt too as a DM).
This is an interesting thing.
"Of course, there's no reason you have to stick to the official chronology at all. If you feel so inclined, you are perfectly free to recast the protagonists of the stories as your PCs, or even throw them out altogether." (Players Guide to Faerûn, p 166)
The whole bit that text is part of deals with this exact conundrum. I've never thought it a problem. If the PCs are too low level to participate in a certain conflict they'll just see draft notices on the walls, meet marching troops on the roads, and hear news by word of mouth about the big war that's going on somewhere.
If they're mid level you can use the rules from Heroes of Battle for adventuring in the middle of a war to great effect.
And if they're high level you can just recast the protagonists. Or have the PCs fight side by side with the NPCs. You can always figure out a way to make it be the PCs ultimately save the day.
I was more or less talking about Adventures that were already written for the PCs. Take, for example, Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land. They had to blow up El's house and had him off fighting who knows what, to justify why the PCs were there vs. Elminster just fixing it - it was his backyard basically.
In any given area you had these exceptionally high level NPCs just hanging out when it was more in their interests to get involved. At that point, why give them any level? Better they would have just fleshed out their characters ideals and not stats.
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Originally posted by Returnip
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The Gods getting into the middle of absolutely everything (look at all the RSE, the deities are the center of why they occur).
Now, I don't know what an RSE is, unless you're talking about Research Software Engineering, but the fact is the gods are real in the realms. They actually exist. And if you don't like that the gods meddle in stuff, you might want to look at a different setting where they're not. Or you can flip it on them. Let the PCs become gods, and usurp the deities' powers.
RSE is short for Realms-Shaking Event. And you can have god's be present but NOT trample all over AO's green Faerûn in pursuit of power or whatever. The problem is they use the deities as a way of pushing Systemic changes that occurred in the D&D mechanics when that's pretty stupid and unnecessary.
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Originally posted by Returnip
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The fact that the under-developed areas were practically dead (Maztica, Zakahara, Mulhorand/Unther) and being vastly under utilized that other more unique concepts filled their place. We can argue the changes that they made, but understand that these were issues that were asked to be addressed. The problem was, it wasn't addressed well.
Is it a problem that the areas are under developed though? It wouldn't matter if they were a separate setting. The themes of said regions just wasn't as popular. It's really that simple. You can't give everyone everything. If a minority is into an ancient egypt inspired setting it's not going to be worth pouring resources into books about it. It's the sad thruth.
I agree, which is why they were supplanted with other things. Personally I much rather preferred Returned Abeir over Maztica. I loathed the fantasized version of European Colonization and forced imperialism of the indigenous people of Maztica, especially with their focus of Helm as the deity to push it (not something I think he'd be cool with).
So with the Sundering they remove brand new info and lore and concepts to return areas the majority of people still don't care about for them to make products on. |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
222 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 01:22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
..a majority of those who were complaining were already Realms fans to begin with? Thus a new setting wouldn't appeal to them anyways.
A majority were already realms fans and therefor they only like one thing? Sorry, how do you come to that conclusion?
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I was more or less talking about Adventures that were already written for the PCs. Take, for example, Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land. They had to blow up El's house and had him off fighting who knows what, to justify why the PCs were there vs. Elminster just fixing it - it was his backyard basically.
That's rather the exception than the rule though, don't you think? I don't recognise it as being very common.
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In any given area you had these exceptionally high level NPCs just hanging out when it was more in their interests to get involved.
I'd say you should have a word with your DM if that becomes the norm. Or are you still talking about Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land?
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RSE is short for Realms-Shaking Event. And you can have god's be present but NOT trample all over AO's green Faerûn in pursuit of power or whatever. The problem is they use the deities as a way of pushing Systemic changes that occurred in the D&D mechanics when that's pretty stupid and unnecessary.
Well I agree in part, but not completely. I don't feel like the whole of the realms are that shook, at least not prior to 4th which is as far as I'm following. I am however annoyed by the amount of bad guy gods. It's a bit much. And they seem a bit petty as well. Then again I don't believe in good and evil, since that is a matter of morality and highly subjective, so to me having good and evil gods just becomes cliché. Not to worry though. I have plans for them. *Mr Burns fingers*
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I loathed the fantasized version of European Colonization and forced imperialism of the indigenous people of Maztica, especially with their focus of Helm as the deity to push it (not something I think he'd be cool with).
Fully agree.
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So with the Sundering they remove brand new info and lore and concepts to return areas the majority of people still don't care about for them to make products on.
Is the sundering something in 4th or 5th? I'm not familiar with it. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 01:43:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
Is the sundering something in 4th or 5th? I'm not familiar with it.
The Sundering (really the second Sundering) was the onset of 5e, the latest edition. It was kind of a "reset", as their originally intention was to bring back what 4e took away: Abeir and Toril drifted apart again, and gods who had died in the Spellplague--and before--returned. Ao essentially restored the Tablets of Fate. They didn't retcon the Spellplague (it's part of Realms history), but the initial impression myself and others got was that WotC realized they had largely screwed up with 4e, and were trying to fix it. There was a lot of hype around 5e, because it seemed promising. But...well, we see how the setting is being treated now. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 02:37:05
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Almost like if your fanbase hates when you try something new, you give up on ever doing so again.
The 5e approach has brought D&D to its pinnacle of sales and publicity. Not saying I love it - I don’t - but this place’s willingness to whine about their own personal nerdy lost cause over a decade later... there has got to be a more productive use of your time. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
Edited by - keftiu on 16 Dec 2020 02:43:37 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 02:53:09
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| The popularity of 5e is part of the discussion, and the whining part comes because it's not like 5e is dead--it's still ongoing, after all, which means new products, and new things to discuss (or whine about). Trust me, most of us do indeed make far better use of our time, but we also do continually see results--for better or worse--as products or news of products comes out. That's why these discussions come up. That's my impression, anyway. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2020 : 05:08:26
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Senior Scribe keftiu,
quote:
The 5e approach has brought D&D to its pinnacle of sales and publicity.
Well, good on them for succeeding. Hopefully those chests of gold are enough to take care of their lawsuits! It also looks like they may have succeeded in attaining that golden, new, market segment they've been pursuing if that is the case. :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2020 : 14:11:47
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Azar,
quote:
I've heard arguments that people who aren't pouring money into current products aren't fans...or at least the kind of fan that matters.
Guilty as charged: I am not a fan by those standards! haha
Best regards,
I've seen such fans - people who abstain from dropping coins into present-day coffers - post free material that puts officially published supplements to shame. Those folks shouldn't be brushed aside; their passion is a true asset. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2020 : 22:12:55
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Learned Scribe Azar,
Oh, there definitely are fen that produce epic materials that are not official, paid WotC authors/producers, etc., that I feel produce unbelievable works for the Realms community. I mean, I don't know what the pay situation is or ever has been for people such as Master Krashos or Snowblood, as two that I think of off the top of my head, but their work is fantastic. Nothing short of epic. I think people like that are definitely not given the credit that they deserve in some regards.
Sure, certain circles (definitely here) give that credit, but I wish it was broader in recognition for them.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2020 : 22:16:54
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Great Reader CorellonsDevout,
Great points all around there good sir! I like that the never ending sunlight keeps the focus on WotC. They can do what they like of course, but I love that fandom doesn't drop it. Absolutely fantastic! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2020 : 23:01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Azar,
Oh, there definitely are fen that produce epic materials that are not official, paid WotC authors/producers, etc., that I feel produce unbelievable works for the Realms community. I mean, I don't know what the pay situation is or ever has been for people such as Master Krashos or Snowblood, as two that I think of off the top of my head, but their work is fantastic. Nothing short of epic. I think people like that are definitely not given the credit that they deserve in some regards.
Sure, certain circles (definitely here) give that credit, but I wish it was broader in recognition for them.
Best regards,
During one of the online things, someone joked that a particular DM's Guild product would certainly earn "dollars" for its author.
There is good stuff on there, but the site is, overall, kind of a niche thing -- and the money has to be split with the DM's Guild. I'm fairly certain that few contributors are getting even enough for a nice meal out of it.
Which is sad... I really thought, when the DM's Guild was introduced, that it was going to be a way for WotC to trial new products and look for new talent. I thought they'd snap up and reprint some things, like they did with Brian R. James's Grand History of the Realms, or look at popular products and say "hey, people really like this guy's stuff, and we've looked at it and it's good -- let's throw an official project his way!"
And maybe they originally intended to do that... But as it stands, it's not much more than a fan site that WotC lets slide. Yet another in a string of missed opportunities, I feel. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2020 : 00:35:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Azar,
Oh, there definitely are fen that produce epic materials that are not official, paid WotC authors/producers, etc., that I feel produce unbelievable works for the Realms community. I mean, I don't know what the pay situation is or ever has been for people such as Master Krashos or Snowblood, as two that I think of off the top of my head, but their work is fantastic. Nothing short of epic. I think people like that are definitely not given the credit that they deserve in some regards.
Sure, certain circles (definitely here) give that credit, but I wish it was broader in recognition for them.
Best regards,
During one of the online things, someone joked that a particular DM's Guild product would certainly earn "dollars" for its author.
There is good stuff on there, but the site is, overall, kind of a niche thing -- and the money has to be split with the DM's Guild. I'm fairly certain that few contributors are getting even enough for a nice meal out of it.
Which is sad... I really thought, when the DM's Guild was introduced, that it was going to be a way for WotC to trial new products and look for new talent. I thought they'd snap up and reprint some things, like they did with Brian R. James's Grand History of the Realms, or look at popular products and say "hey, people really like this guy's stuff, and we've looked at it and it's good -- let's throw an official project his way!"
And maybe they originally intended to do that... But as it stands, it's not much more than a fan site that WotC lets slide. Yet another in a string of missed opportunities, I feel.
The Guild takes a full half, so you can crunch those numbers accordingly. I've made about $600 off my one book. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2020 : 03:22:07
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
The Guild takes a full half, so you can crunch those numbers accordingly. I've made about $600 off my one book.
That's a good amount... Over how long a period was this amount earned? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2020 : 04:31:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
The Guild takes a full half, so you can crunch those numbers accordingly. I've made about $600 off my one book.
That's a good amount... Over how long a period was this amount earned?
Two years, though the vast majority of it came in during the first two or three months. Around $1300 in sales isn’t half bad, considering it’s a PWYW release. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2020 : 05:16:38
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
The Guild takes a full half, so you can crunch those numbers accordingly. I've made about $600 off my one book.
That's a good amount... Over how long a period was this amount earned?
Two years, though the vast majority of it came in during the first two or three months. Around $1300 in sales isn’t half bad, considering it’s a PWYW release.
Wow. Color me a glowing shamrock. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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What compinies get wrong about fans
