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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2022 : 15:35:37
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| Ok, so this discussion has been the genesis of an idea that may or may not be possible but could end up being something worthwhile: a human name generator. It would be based on the culture the individual is either from or lives in. This would go way beyond the name fragment non-human name generators published in Dragon in the past. It is basically an analysis of existing names to determine patterns of nouns, vowels, and common consonant/vowel configurations that is in use for names in a particular culture. I did something similar for Vulcan and Andorian names years ago when I was GMing a Star Trek:TRPG campaign. I would be willing to try it, but I would need a culture and a list of quality names from that culture. Is there a specific culture of wide interest that I should start with? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2022 : 18:45:31
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Ok, so this discussion has been the genesis of an idea that may or may not be possible but could end up being something worthwhile: a human name generator. It would be based on the culture the individual is either from or lives in. This would go way beyond the name fragment non-human name generators published in Dragon in the past. It is basically an analysis of existing names to determine patterns of nouns, vowels, and common consonant/vowel configurations that is in use for names in a particular culture. I did something similar for Vulcan and Andorian names years ago when I was GMing a Star Trek:TRPG campaign. I would be willing to try it, but I would need a culture and a list of quality names from that culture. Is there a specific culture of wide interest that I should start with?
Old English is a great one to start with, IMO. Christianity and the Norman conquest did a lot to replace a significant number of Old English names in common usage in the Anglophone world, so they tend to feel old-timey and somewhat fantastical. Even the revived names feel more medieval; which seems to fit better in a medieval tale: Oswald and Alfred, or William and Charles?
That's my two cents at least. :D
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2022 : 23:28:13
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Ok, so this discussion has been the genesis of an idea that may or may not be possible but could end up being something worthwhile: a human name generator.
Would that generator make allowances for the occasional "oddball"-yet-canon Realms name (e.g., Brandon, Randal or Simon)...or does it only represent "true" Realmsian cognomens? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2022 : 14:13:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Ok, so this discussion has been the genesis of an idea that may or may not be possible but could end up being something worthwhile: a human name generator.
Would that generator make allowances for the occasional "oddball"-yet-canon Realms name (e.g., Brandon, Randal or Simon)...or does it only represent "true" Realmsian cognomens?
No. Those will not be included in the pattern analysis. I have started looking at Calishite names. There is a pattern that matches Simon: cvcvc. However, it remains to be seen if permissible positioning of the vowels/consonants will allow that name to be generated. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2022 : 15:31:55
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| Hm. I would consider their absence to be minorly lamentable; one need not use them, sure, but to erase them from existence entirely... |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2022 : 16:34:00
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I am not erasing them. They exist. The point of this tool would be the ability to generate an exotic name that fits in with the society they are from. If anything, this may show that mundane names are actually possible within specific cultures and the fact that they are similar to Earth names is coincidental (that is why I am excluding them, to see if they can still be there).
If we look at your name, the pattern is vcvc. That pattern exists in the Calashite list (Eric's name also follows the same pattern but again, permissible positioning will be the determining factor)
Let's look at George's name. That would be cvvccv. I don't see that thus far in the Calashite list, but it does look like the pattern for a name from the Moonsea area. We will just have to see how that shakes out and if it reveals what some people on here suspect: George is actually a Zhentarim agent here at the 'keep.  |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2022 : 04:33:31
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I am not erasing them. They exist. The point of this tool would be the ability to generate an exotic name that fits in with the society they are from. If anything, this may show that mundane names are actually possible within specific cultures and the fact that they are similar to Earth names is coincidental (that is why I am excluding them, to see if they can still be there).
If we look at your name, the pattern is vcvc. That pattern exists in the Calashite list (Eric's name also follows the same pattern but again, permissible positioning will be the determining factor)
Let's look at George's name. That would be cvvccv. I don't see that thus far in the Calashite list, but it does look like the pattern for a name from the Moonsea area. We will just have to see how that shakes out and if it reveals what some people on here suspect: George is actually a Zhentarim agent here at the 'keep.
I am interested in seeing how this theoretical name generator meshes or clashes with border territories; unless one land has the equivalent of a magical Great Wall of China (and an equally monumental antipathy towards their neighbor), you can bet there will be significant cultural blending as one nears a line of demarcation. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2022 : 04:36:51
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| I thought of "Jessendra" while idly throwing around real-world names and morphing them into unfamiliar forms; one Google search later and I find out that this is an already extant (albeit extremely rare) name. You just can't win! |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2022 : 07:50:23
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The North - Guide to the Savage Frontier features this tidbit ->
quote:
Agatha's Grove: The haunt of a ghost, this grove is the chief landmark of the area. The ghost of Neverwinter Wood is a banshee known as Agatha. This name is probably a corruption of the elven surname Auglathla, meaning Winterbreeze in an old elven dialect.
If an Earth name was inserted as a one-off corruption, would you consider that agreeable or is it still impermissible because it disrupts immersion? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2022 : 17:03:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I thought of "Jessendra" while idly throwing around real-world names and morphing them into unfamiliar forms; one Google search later and I find out that this is an already extant (albeit extremely rare) name. You just can't win!
Not sure if I've mentioned it or not, in this discussion, but there was a name I thought I had made up, when I was a teenager. I about fell out of my seat at work, one day, when I saw that someone at my company had that name. It turned out to be a not overly common Irish name. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2022 : 17:06:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
The North - Guide to the Savage Frontier features this tidbit ->
quote:
Agatha's Grove: The haunt of a ghost, this grove is the chief landmark of the area. The ghost of Neverwinter Wood is a banshee known as Agatha. This name is probably a corruption of the elven surname Auglathla, meaning Winterbreeze in an old elven dialect.
If an Earth name was inserted as a one-off corruption, would you consider that agreeable or is it still impermissible because it disrupts immersion?
I'm fairly certain that the "Auglathla" explanation was an after-the-fact thing to try to make "Agatha" less of an issue.
It still disrupts immersion for me, and it did when I first read those books -- back when there was only two trilogies featuring Lord Ginsu. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2022 : 18:54:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm fairly certain that the "Auglathla" explanation was an after-the-fact thing to try to make "Agatha" less of an issue.
It still disrupts immersion for me, and it did when I first read those books -- back when there was only two trilogies featuring Lord Ginsu.
I would take RAS naming conventions with a grain of salt. "Dagnabit" was the last naming straw for me. At least Cadderly was not named "Danny".  |
Edited by - Delnyn on 28 Nov 2022 18:55:46 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2022 : 14:12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
The North - Guide to the Savage Frontier features this tidbit ->
quote:
Agatha's Grove: The haunt of a ghost, this grove is the chief landmark of the area. The ghost of Neverwinter Wood is a banshee known as Agatha. This name is probably a corruption of the elven surname Auglathla, meaning Winterbreeze in an old elven dialect.
If an Earth name was inserted as a one-off corruption, would you consider that agreeable or is it still impermissible because it disrupts immersion?
I'm fairly certain that the "Auglathla" explanation was an after-the-fact thing to try to make "Agatha" less of an issue.
It still disrupts immersion for me, and it did when I first read those books -- back when there was only two trilogies featuring Lord Ginsu.
Wooly, I'll take your word for it; my memory of that section of the novel is spotty, to put it mildly. However, I do wonder...with this explanation, was "Agatha" meant to be an entirely new name in the Realms (assuming it was a one-off) or were there already (human?) women named Agatha and the townsfolk used that present extant name in place of the proper Elven name? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2022 : 18:52:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm fairly certain that the "Auglathla" explanation was an after-the-fact thing to try to make "Agatha" less of an issue.
It still disrupts immersion for me, and it did when I first read those books -- back when there was only two trilogies featuring Lord Ginsu.
I would take RAS naming conventions with a grain of salt. "Dagnabit" was the last naming straw for me. At least Cadderly was not named "Danny".
We did get Danica, however  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2022 : 08:30:07
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| The fact that mages from other worlds (or at least their spells) have a presence in The Realms has been firmly established, yes? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2022 : 13:45:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
The fact that mages from other worlds (or at least their spells) have a presence in The Realms has been firmly established, yes?
We know Bigby is from Oerth (Greyhawk) and that the spell Khelben's Warding Whip was created in response to the various Bigby's Verbing Hand spells. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2022 : 16:51:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
The fact that mages from other worlds (or at least their spells) have a presence in The Realms has been firmly established, yes?
We know Bigby is from Oerth (Greyhawk) and that the spell Khelben's Warding Whip was created in response to the various Bigby's Verbing Hand spells.
"The old goat comes up with one good gimmick and beats it to death with a rock." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2022 : 15:09:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm fairly certain that the "Auglathla" explanation was an after-the-fact thing to try to make "Agatha" less of an issue.
It still disrupts immersion for me, and it did when I first read those books -- back when there was only two trilogies featuring Lord Ginsu.
I would take RAS naming conventions with a grain of salt. "Dagnabit" was the last naming straw for me. At least Cadderly was not named "Danny".
We did get Danica, however .
I never put that two and two together.... they got married, correct? So, she would have become Danica Bonaduce IF she took his last name? Wasn't his nickname for her Dani? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 08 Dec 2022 15:13:35 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2022 : 16:48:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
The fact that mages from other worlds (or at least their spells) have a presence in The Realms has been firmly established, yes?
We know Bigby is from Oerth (Greyhawk) and that the spell Khelben's Warding Whip was created in response to the various Bigby's Verbing Hand spells.
I remember references to Tenser and Otiluke popping up in a Salvatore novel. Yeah...I'm seeing a problem for those people who dislike Earth names while sticking to setting canon.
Maximilian's Earthen Grasp
Unless spellcasters keep their spells under lock and key, spell names are going to spread out into the wider Realms. I can easily imagine people naming their children after famous mages; we do it all the time with our kids and noteworthy public figures (historical or otherwise). On the other hand, a superstitious bunch may not want to utter a mage's name out of fear that they will inadvertently summon them or invoke a curse.
Point being, it's not exactly impossible that - on a long enough time scale - "Maximilian" is going to make the rounds.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm fairly certain that the "Auglathla" explanation was an after-the-fact thing to try to make "Agatha" less of an issue.
It still disrupts immersion for me, and it did when I first read those books -- back when there was only two trilogies featuring Lord Ginsu.
I would take RAS naming conventions with a grain of salt. "Dagnabit" was the last naming straw for me. At least Cadderly was not named "Danny".
We did get Danica, however .
I never put that two and two together.... they got married, correct? So, she would have become Danica Bonaduce IF she took his last name? Wasn't his nickname for her Dani?
Correct and correct. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Outlaw Pope
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2022 : 20:41:02
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| I usually use name lists, constructions from any libraries of words we have of relevant languages, or just make a name up entirely based on the aesthetic of whatever culture. I don't like using real life names if I can avoid it. Mostly because I have never enjoyed where it usually goes in RP or people using X = Y, even when something is inspired by Y. (Ie, people going "oh Cormyr is like France I will now make everyone French and have French names) |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2022 : 23:19:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope
(Ie, people going "oh Cormyr is like France I will now make everyone French and have French names)
Cormyr has cultural/thematic similarities with France?
(Originally, I was going to say "a French connection", but that reference speaks for itself...with a megaphone.) |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Outlaw Pope
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2022 : 23:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope
(Ie, people going "oh Cormyr is like France I will now make everyone French and have French names)
Cormyr has cultural/thematic similarities with France?
(Originally, I was going to say "a French connection", but that reference speaks for itself...with a megaphone.)
I've seen stuff like that here back when I was a mere lurker - it is also something that usually gets used a lot in RP communities in NWN or where. I get why people do it and I don't really hate anyone for doing it- but I just think it's a bit off.
Most places in the Realms I'd just ascribe, atop their own unique writeups, a generic veneer of 50s/60s hollywood medievalism at their worst, without much nationality. There's also places like Rashemen or the Old Empires which have inspiration from slavic folk or the ancient near east, but then have names that are different than any culture in that real life category.
Anyway - less french Chondathans of Cormyr, Spanish style Amnians, and more people with ass-pulled names that at least look like other npcs.
This is why the few examples of "real life = thing" npcs stand out so weirdly. Like Cordell the conqueror or the Amnian guy trying to kill/replace him who has a vaguely italo-spanish name. De Nosta? Or something.
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2023 : 21:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope
and more people with ass-pulled names that at least look like other npcs.
Instituted without much (if any) consideration, this may - unintentionally - result in a homogeneity of names all across The Realms . That same uniformity is "worse" for the various demihuman races. As an example: you're bound to find at least one elf maiden with a name ending in "-iel" no matter which of their scattered haunts you visit. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2023 : 22:42:37
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I've been thinking on this a bit more... While I do prefer to see recognizable real-world names avoided, I guess that even in a fantasy world, names we think of as real-world names could quite naturally appear by happenstance.
As I may have noted before, there's been more than one time that I thought up a fantasy name and later saw it in a book I'd not previously read, or even discovered that it was actually a real-world name. In one case, there was a gap of more than 20 years (and a lot of jobs!) between me thinking up a name and then discovering someone at work had that same name.
And my son, when he was just learning to talk, was just putting sounds together one day -- and dropped the F-bomb. He wasn't cursing; he was just trying out different sounds and happened to attach the "fuh" to an "uck". (I did the smart thing and verbally steered him in another direction, not even acknowledging the inadvertent profanity, though I did later joke about him being fined one credit for his violation of the Verbal Morality Statute)
So I guess that it's not outside the realm of possibility for parents in a fantasy setting to say "Hey, Jack is a good name!" or something like that... Though it'd still be better if the spelling was tweaked slightly; Jack Ravenswild and Jak Fleet have phonetically identical first names, but one is blatantly real-world and the other is at least tweaked a bit and doesn't break immersion as readily. (Though I'll never get over a guy named Ravenswild being from Raven's Bluff) |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Feb 2023 22:43:08 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2023 : 05:35:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And my son, when he was just learning to talk, was just putting sounds together one day -- and dropped the F-bomb. He wasn't cursing; he was just trying out different sounds and happened to attach the "fuh" to an "uck". (I did the smart thing and verbally steered him in another direction, not even acknowledging the inadvertent profanity, though I did later joke about him being fined one credit for his violation of the Verbal Morality Statute)
That reminds me of my cousin trying to pronounce "funky monkey"  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2023 : 06:24:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I never put that two and two together.... they got married, correct? So, she would have become Danica Bonaduce IF she took his last name? Wasn't his nickname for her Dani?
Correct and correct.
Urgh. I should have said nothing. Oh well, life goes on. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2023 : 22:59:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I never put that two and two together.... they got married, correct? So, she would have become Danica Bonaduce IF she took his last name? Wasn't his nickname for her Dani?
Correct and correct.
Urgh. I should have said nothing. Oh well, life goes on.
George Martin did the same thing with one of his principal characters; it seems that fantasy authors hailing from Earth can't resist inserting certain nicknames. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2023 : 02:23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
George Martin did the same thing with one of his principal characters; it seems that fantasy authors hailing from Earth can't resist inserting certain nicknames.
To be fair, some nicknames are obvious. We've seen, in Realms novels, Elminster shortened to "El" for example. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2023 : 16:38:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
George Martin did the same thing with one of his principal characters; it seems that fantasy authors hailing from Earth can't resist inserting certain nicknames.
To be fair, some nicknames are obvious. We've seen, in Realms novels, Elminster shortened to "El" for example.
I've seen Alustriel and Alusair called "'Luse", Myrmeen Lahl called "Mreen". and Laral called "Laer" Alusair once referred to Vangerdahast as "Vangey", but I forgot the source. (Of course, that was one of the politest things Alusair would call the then-Mage Royal of Cormyr.  ) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2023 : 16:49:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I've seen Alustriel and Alusair called "'Luse", Myrmeen Lahl called "Mreen". and Laral called "Laer" Alusair once referred to Vangerdahast as "Vangey", but I forgot the source. (Of course, that was one of the politest things Alusair would call the then-Mage Royal of Cormyr. )
Mreen doesn't seem like an obvious one, to me... But something like Myr or Myri would be. |
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NPC names: mundane versus exotic?
