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Originally posted by Delnyn

Wooly,
You raised the perfect point. I would not be in the least bit surprised if "younger" deities such as Torm, Deneir and Eldath asked that question. Here is where I spark the debate:

Until "after the Dawn Cataclysm", I would expect the gods, even so called good gods, to regard mortals as assets and commodities. Consider Chauntea as a classic example. In the 1300 and 1400's DR, she had that image of a nuruting mother. In the Days of Netheril when she was worshipped as Jannath, her image was much closer to Silvanus, and cared more for trees than humans.

The gods were not necessarily hostile to mortals as much as indifferent. They probably thought of the Wall less as a punishment and more a recycling bin. After all, the souls in the Wall did dissolve after a long time.

Keep in mind the passage of time means nothing to immortals, especially deities. The pantheon at the time in fact may have thought of the wall as giving mortals second, third, as many chances as possible to "get it right". From that immortal point of view, a 1,000 years of torment in the Wall is nothing more than a "timeout" given to a disruptive child.

I bet the mortal perspectives only became possible when mortals ascended into the pantheon. Going on a limb, I would claim Torm was the first deity to truly bring compassion and regard for mortals into the pantheon. It is recognized he is an ascended mortal paladin, even if he is tight-lipped about his mortal origins.

Alternate perspectives are welcome. In some aspects, I hope I am wrong. Deities that always were deities just do not and can not understand mortals.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:

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Originally posted by Delnyn

Wooly,
You raised the perfect point. I would not be in the least bit surprised if "younger" deities such as Torm, Deneir and Eldath asked that question. Here is where I spark the debate:

Until "after the Dawn Cataclysm", I would expect the gods, even so called good gods, to regard mortals as assets and commodities. Consider Chauntea as a classic example. In the 1300 and 1400's DR, she had that image of a nuruting mother. In the Days of Netheril when she was worshipped as Jannath, her image was much closer to Silvanus, and cared more for trees than humans.

The gods were not necessarily hostile to mortals as much as indifferent. They probably thought of the Wall less as a punishment and more a recycling bin. After all, the souls in the Wall did dissolve after a long time.

Keep in mind the passage of time means nothing to immortals, especially deities. The pantheon at the time in fact may have thought of the wall as giving mortals second, third, as many chances as possible to "get it right". From that immortal point of view, a 1,000 years of torment in the Wall is nothing more than a "timeout" given to a disruptive child.

I bet the mortal perspectives only became possible when mortals ascended into the pantheon. Going on a limb, I would claim Torm was the first deity to truly bring compassion and regard for mortals into the pantheon. It is recognized he is an ascended mortal paladin, even if he is tight-lipped about his mortal origins.

Alternate perspectives are welcome. In some aspects, I hope I am wrong. Deities that always were deities just do not and can not understand mortals.

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If only they had voiced those concerns in a published product, I wouldn't see the FR good gods as a bunch of hypocrites.

And I still don't get why non-believers are harshly punished, while blasphemers, heretics, and other offenders of the gods go scott free to their afterlifes.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But that is not a law-abbided punishment. And can happen even to the most devout worshippers if for some reason the devil appears before the carriage sent by the gods to pick them up. So, it's not even comparable with the Wall of the Faithless.

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Originally posted by Azar

An atheist/agnostic Forgotten Realms would be quite the shift in expectation. Personally, I love playing in the Realms because there are so many faiths present and influencing the world.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:

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Originally posted by Azar

An atheist/agnostic Forgotten Realms would be quite the shift in expectation. Personally, I love playing in the Realms because there are so many faiths present and influencing the world.

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But they are bound to exist. Either they are Abeirans that got transported to Toril either during the Spellplague or the Second Sundering (and they are justified, as gods actually don't exist in Abeir, so for them is really difficult to grasp the concept of an actual living god -- you can say the same applies to anyone that originates from Eberron), people like the Athar (who believe gods doesn't exist; those things are just powerful creatures, not worthy of worship), and those who for some reason lost the faith in the gods. Like poor Adon, who lost his faith while magically influenced by Cyric, and ended up plastered in the Wall.

He is the reason I cannot trust Kelemvor. He doesn't care about the "why", just about the facts. That's why I believe all those Abeirans who died in Faerūn ended up in the Wall. To Kelemvor, their specific situation doesn't matter. Just that they don't believe. Just like with Adon.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:

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Originally posted by Azar

An atheist/agnostic Forgotten Realms would be quite the shift in expectation. Personally, I love playing in the Realms because there are so many faiths present and influencing the world.

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Like poor Adon, who lost his faith while magically influenced by Cyric, and ended up plastered in the Wall.

He is the reason I cannot trust Kelemvor. He doesn't care about the "why", just about the facts. That's why I believe all those Abeirans who died in Faerūn ended up in the Wall. To Kelemvor, their specific situation doesn't matter. Just that they don't believe. Just like with Adon.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:

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Originally posted by Delnyn

Wooly,
You raised the perfect point. I would not be in the least bit surprised if "younger" deities such as Torm, Deneir and Eldath asked that question. Here is where I spark the debate:

Until "after the Dawn Cataclysm", I would expect the gods, even so called good gods, to regard mortals as assets and commodities. Consider Chauntea as a classic example. In the 1300 and 1400's DR, she had that image of a nuruting mother. In the Days of Netheril when she was worshipped as Jannath, her image was much closer to Silvanus, and cared more for trees than humans.

The gods were not necessarily hostile to mortals as much as indifferent. They probably thought of the Wall less as a punishment and more a recycling bin. After all, the souls in the Wall did dissolve after a long time.

Keep in mind the passage of time means nothing to immortals, especially deities. The pantheon at the time in fact may have thought of the wall as giving mortals second, third, as many chances as possible to "get it right". From that immortal point of view, a 1,000 years of torment in the Wall is nothing more than a "timeout" given to a disruptive child.

I bet the mortal perspectives only became possible when mortals ascended into the pantheon. Going on a limb, I would claim Torm was the first deity to truly bring compassion and regard for mortals into the pantheon. It is recognized he is an ascended mortal paladin, even if he is tight-lipped about his mortal origins.

Alternate perspectives are welcome. In some aspects, I hope I am wrong. Deities that always were deities just do not and can not understand mortals.

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If only they had voiced those concerns in a published product, I wouldn't see the FR good gods as a bunch of hypocrites.

And I still don't get why non-believers are harshly punished, while blasphemers, heretics, and other offenders of the gods go scott free to their afterlifes.

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Originally posted by Azar

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:

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Originally posted by Azar

An atheist/agnostic Forgotten Realms would be quite the shift in expectation. Personally, I love playing in the Realms because there are so many faiths present and influencing the world.

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Like poor Adon, who lost his faith while magically influenced by Cyric, and ended up plastered in the Wall.

He is the reason I cannot trust Kelemvor. He doesn't care about the "why", just about the facts. That's why I believe all those Abeirans who died in Faerūn ended up in the Wall. To Kelemvor, their specific situation doesn't matter. Just that they don't believe. Just like with Adon.

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Is that so ? I cannot - for the life of me - understand how actions performed while magically/supernaturally coerced and/or deceived are considered just as valid as those performed while in possession of a clear and calm (i.e., untainted) head. You'd think gods would be more discerning.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout


Not really. These would likely be classified as False (those who betrayed their god or turned away from their faith--and presumably didn't seek another. They were judged and punished according to their deeds in life). The severity of the punishment varied depending on their crime. For some, this just meant serving in the City of Judgement as an escort or something. For others...it's far more severe.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

In all seriousness though, Ed himself said on Twitter that those who actually end up on the Wall are very rare, and the Wall isn't the Big Bad it's often made out to be. It's more of a bogeyman's tale: real, but not a fate most have to worry about.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

In all seriousness though, Ed himself said on Twitter that those who actually end up on the Wall are very rare, and the Wall isn't the Big Bad it's often made out to be. It's more of a bogeyman's tale: real, but not a fate most have to worry about.

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And this is really problematic, at least for me. Saying that the Wall is not that bad because only a few are plastered there is like saying Hitler was not that bad because he just killed a few fellows, not all of humanity.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

simping

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Originally posted by Azar

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

simping

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Oh for f...

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

As for the novel, it makes it like everyone in Faerūn knew about the Wall, as Kel states he had to judge Adon or "half Faerūn will.go mad". That goes against what Ed said about the Wall being just a boogeyman tale.

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Originally posted by Demzer

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

As for the novel, it makes it like everyone in Faerūn knew about the Wall, as Kel states he had to judge Adon or "half Faerūn will.go mad". That goes against what Ed said about the Wall being just a boogeyman tale.

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Yeah because "half of Faerun" was up to speed on the supernatural court judging a poor sod's soul. This is the same novel (or novel series) were the author trashes whatever previous concept of Faerunian afterlife there was in print with Kel organising book clubs for "the wise and philosophers" and gym competitions for "the brave and strong" and basically keeping everyone in the Fugue, completely disregarding the other gods.

Looks like someone didn't know half-s**t about how things went in the Realms and improvised base on their own idea heavily based on one-afterlife-fits-all.

It's astounding how when things like this happen, instead of realising it was a massive author mistake, people cling to it and use it as a base to try and revolutionise the rest of the Realms.

I don't see campaigns wanting to rewrite rules so liches can be shotted with lighting bolt. I don't see petitions to have kinetic barrier and psionics be the end all be all of powergaming. Why every time random authors write s**t about the gods people get fully behind their carriage and want to use it to rewrite the Realms?

When they misrepresented and trashed Eilistraee people were up in arms, not saying "Hey there is this novel here so it MUST be this way". Why is all the other, more in depth information on the rest of the pantheon not held in the same regard?

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Ooriginally poosted by Wooooly Rooooooopert

It's like talking about shark attacks: Yeah, the idea of shark attacks scares a lot of people -- but the number of people actually attacked by sharks is very small. Saying that doesn't mean shark attacks aren't serious, it's just saying that a lot of people who are worried about it are not anywhere close to being in danger of it happening.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There's a difference between saying "it's not the thing it's made out to be" and saying "it's not that bad".

It's like talking about shark attacks: Yeah, the idea of shark attacks scares a lot of people -- but the number of people actually attacked by sharks is very small. Saying that doesn't mean shark attacks aren't serious, it's just saying that a lot of people who are worried about it are not anywhere close to being in danger of it happening.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Blasphemers, heretics, and other offenders just might not be going scott free. Some folks wait and wait for their god to come along and bring them to their afterlife. Meanwhile there are devils and such who are looking to steal souls before the gods claim them. It just might be something wherein those who blasphemed against their patron can't get picked up by their deity and they leave them waiting until they finally get worn down by some devil, etc... Of course, this isn't canon, but SOMEONE goes with the devils. We just aren't given the "rules" for what happens other than a high level overview.

So, I guess what I'm saying is... if you don't conform well enough to your patron, maybe there are some issues as a result... maybe even something outside the deity's hands. Maybe they can't "change" you into a proper petitioner for their realm, and thus your soul is tainted and eventually it will deteriorate into a larvae or somesuch (i.e. you were such a worm in life, not following your own religion that you chose, that you begin to resemble a worm in the afterlife). Just an idea. May need fleshing out.

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Originally posted by Ayrik


This conscious atheism can lead one into the hands of fiends. It can sometimes produce dangerously Karsus-like arrogance.
The D&D cosmos already has mechanisms to (eternally) punish such erroneous choices. The Wall is simply an abusive cruelty imposed by sadistic gods.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:

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Originally posted by Azar

An atheist/agnostic Forgotten Realms would be quite the shift in expectation. Personally, I love playing in the Realms because there are so many faiths present and influencing the world.

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But they are bound to exist. Either they are Abeirans that got transported to Toril either during the Spellplague or the Second Sundering

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

people like the Athar (who believe gods doesn't exist; those things are just powerful creatures, not worthy of worship)

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:

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Originally posted by Ayrik


This conscious atheism can lead one into the hands of fiends. It can sometimes produce dangerously Karsus-like arrogance.
The D&D cosmos already has mechanisms to (eternally) punish such erroneous choices. The Wall is simply an abusive cruelty imposed by sadistic gods.

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The alternatives (Asmodeus) aren't really any better. It's still punishment, after all, whether it's the Wall or something else.

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Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:

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Originally posted by Ayrik


This conscious atheism can lead one into the hands of fiends. It can sometimes produce dangerously Karsus-like arrogance.
The D&D cosmos already has mechanisms to (eternally) punish such erroneous choices. The Wall is simply an abusive cruelty imposed by sadistic gods.

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The alternatives (Asmodeus) aren't really any better. It's still punishment, after all, whether it's the Wall or something else.

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The alternatives (Asmodeus or should we really say Ahriman) are indeed not any better. They are worse. As noted by other scribes, the deities can be creeps and generally do not care about mortals' welfare. For those who entertain the story of the Twin Serpents of Law, the Wall makes perfect logic as a "scorched-earth" measure to make sure Ahriman stays buried deep within the Serpent's Coil down in Nessus. Civilizations such as Netheril or Imaskar would have produced a banquet of faithless souls for Ahriman.

Deities probably will never admit to mortals they share a strong deep streak of self-preservation, even the "good" deities. If Ahriman escapes the Hells and reclaims his original power, he destabilizes the planes themselves. Very bad news for any deity or mortal. If atheist or should I say anti-theist souls get stuffed into the Wall to stop multiplanar annihilation, too bad for those souls. To a deity, it is such a paltry price to pay. Mortals would get annihilated anyway if Ahriman breaks free.

This does not put "good" deities in a rosy light, and is part of the argument Sigil's planar factions such as the Athar use against worshipping the gods, regardless of alignment or portfolio. Keep in mind the factions - including the Athar - traveled to and from Toril quite regularly. The actions of the avatars during ToT further tarnished the pantheon's collective reputation. These developments also suit Ahriman's goal quite nicely.

I can easily figure Jergal getting in Kelemvor's ear right after the latter's ascension. "Whatever you do, make sure no Faithless souls ever avoid the Wall. Every single deity in the pantheon, and I mean every deity, is counting on you. All our lives are on the line. Oh, by the way, please never discuss this matter outside the pantheon. Trust me."

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Originally posted by Azar


Is the Spellplague still recognized in D&D 5th Edition? I know that Wizards of the Coast basically wiped away most 4th Edition changes to The Forgotten Realms with a retcon because of how unpopular they were.

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Originally posted by Azar

Planescape? Holy crap (no pun intended)...is that setting even relevant in D&D 5th Edition ? Is Wizards of the Coast planning to do anything with Planescape? I ask because their track record with legacy settings is appalling.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Azar


Is the Spellplague still recognized in D&D 5th Edition? I know that Wizards of the Coast basically wiped away most 4th Edition changes to The Forgotten Realms with a retcon because of how unpopular they were.

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They've undone the changes, but the changes still happened.

The current design staff seems to have no issue doing retcons, but only of stuff that predates them. Retconning the Spellplague would not only be admitting to making a mistake, it would also anger those who liked it.

So instead, they're undoing the changes but keeping things as vague as possible, so they don't alienate anyone by making anything definitive.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Azar

Planescape? Holy crap (no pun intended)...is that setting even relevant in D&D 5th Edition ? Is Wizards of the Coast planning to do anything with Planescape? I ask because their track record with legacy settings is appalling.

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I doubt we'll see Planescape again, or if we do, it'll be folded, bent, spindled, mutilated, and otherwise forcibly crammed into whatever planar structure we have this week.

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