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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Nov 2020 : 23:13:43
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This errata is making the rounds on the internet, so I figured I would share it here (apologies if someone else already has). Apparently, they're omitting the sentence which describes the Wall of the Faithless in their updated printing of the SCAG.
https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SCAG-Errata.pdf
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2020 : 23:17:57
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| The PDF provided did not enlighten me. What am I missing? I searched the PDF for "faithless" and "wall" and came up nil |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2020 : 23:33:44
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Searches won't find references to things which have been omitted, lol.
The Wall was always controversial and unpopular. So it makes sense that it might be de-emphasized or omitted in newer Realmslore printings/publications.
It actually amuses me that some fans (online) are vehemently condemning this villainous retcon. After vehemently condemning the Wall so powerfully and so often for years and years. I suppose we must admire their passions, if not their intellects. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2020 : 23:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
The PDF provided did not enlighten me. What am I missing? I searched the PDF for "faithless" and "wall" and came up nil
The PDF will indicate "new" changes to the SCAG. It states that in the afterlife section of the SCAG, the last sentence has been omitted. That sentence was about the Wall. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 00:21:14
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I'd imagine the people most worried about this are the people who have cultures that don't accept the gods because they came from Abeir. Honestly, I couldn't care one way or the other, but rather than retcon to just remove mention of it, they should instead have some story/plot that destroys it. For instance, have Ao tell Kelemvor that the wall is unfair treatment to the people who came over from Abeir and to return those souls to Abeir itself.... but it involves destroying the wall entirely because you can't just pull certain souls out... or some other BS like that.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 00:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd imagine the people most worried about this are the people who have cultures that don't accept the gods because they came from Abeir. Honestly, I couldn't care one way or the other, but rather than retcon to just remove mention of it, they should instead have some story/plot that destroys it. For instance, have Ao tell Kelemvor that the wall is unfair treatment to the people who came over from Abeir and to return those souls to Abeir itself.... but it involves destroying the wall entirely because you can't just pull certain souls out... or some other BS like that.
From my understanding, the Wall only affects those under Kel/Myrkul's sphere of influence/jurisdiction. So those in, say. Zakhara, answer to their own divinity, so I don't think the Wall applies to them. Not sure about Abeir though.
I agree however that, rather than just omitting it, they should provide a canonical explanation. And they haven't omitted unclaimed souls turning into larvae, which isn't any better, imho, and basically just replaces the faithless ending up on the Wall. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 02:26:42
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| Abeir has no gods or goddesses. So no promised afterlife. And no Wall for those who reject the promise. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 02:37:52
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| Has it ever been said what does happen to souls of Abeirans? Afterlife usually goes hand-in-hand with gods, but it isn't always the case (especially if worship isn't required). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 04:49:15
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The Wall is gone. Good riddance. It added nothing good to Realmslore. I will not miss it.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Has it ever been said what does happen to souls of Abeirans? Afterlife usually goes hand-in-hand with gods, but it isn't always the case (especially if worship isn't required).
There is one hint of a possible Abeiran afterlife in the Liberator of the Steelsky paragon path (Forgotten Realms Player's Guide). The fluff part of it states that the souls of those who died under draconic or elemental oppression have become a form of divine power source that the Liberators use to power their paladin-like spells. It seems this energy is embedded in Abeir's Steelsky.
This only covers the afterlifes of those who died under the oppression of dragon and primordials and their genasi subjects, tho.
There is also the fact that the dragonborn came to Faerűn with funerary customs, which mean the must have some notion of an afterlife.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd imagine the people most worried about this are the people who have cultures that don't accept the gods because they came from Abeir. Honestly, I couldn't care one way or the other, but rather than retcon to just remove mention of it, they should instead have some story/plot that destroys it. For instance, have Ao tell Kelemvor that the wall is unfair treatment to the people who came over from Abeir and to return those souls to Abeir itself.... but it involves destroying the wall entirely because you can't just pull certain souls out... or some other BS like that.
Didn't Kelemvor created some Mirror Wall in the novels that they latter ignored for the Wall of the Faithless? They can just bring that back. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Nov 2020 04:50:51 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 04:59:56
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
The PDF provided did not enlighten me. What am I missing? I searched the PDF for "faithless" and "wall" and came up nil
The PDF will indicate "new" changes to the SCAG. It states that in the afterlife section of the SCAG, the last sentence has been omitted. That sentence was about the Wall.
I don't think it'll be missed by many. I won't miss it, personally. Ed doesn't have the Wall in his Realms either, that I know. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 12:03:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The Wall is gone. Good riddance. It added nothing good to Realmslore. I will not miss it.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Has it ever been said what does happen to souls of Abeirans? Afterlife usually goes hand-in-hand with gods, but it isn't always the case (especially if worship isn't required).
There is one hint of a possible Abeiran afterlife in the Liberator of the Steelsky paragon path (Forgotten Realms Player's Guide). The fluff part of it states that the souls of those who died under draconic or elemental oppression have become a form of divine power source that the Liberators use to power their paladin-like spells. It seems this energy is embedded in Abeir's Steelsky.
This only covers the afterlifes of those who died under the oppression of dragon and primordials and their genasi subjects, tho.
There is also the fact that the dragonborn came to Faerűn with funerary customs, which mean the must have some notion of an afterlife.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd imagine the people most worried about this are the people who have cultures that don't accept the gods because they came from Abeir. Honestly, I couldn't care one way or the other, but rather than retcon to just remove mention of it, they should instead have some story/plot that destroys it. For instance, have Ao tell Kelemvor that the wall is unfair treatment to the people who came over from Abeir and to return those souls to Abeir itself.... but it involves destroying the wall entirely because you can't just pull certain souls out... or some other BS like that.
Didn't Kelemvor created some Mirror Wall in the novels that they latter ignored for the Wall of the Faithless? They can just bring that back.
I wish we’d gotten like, 30% more Abeir. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 12:47:18
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Well, as I have been quite vocal in some threads about the Wall, I guess I will comment.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd imagine the people most worried about this are the people who have cultures that don't accept the gods because they came from Abeir.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Abeir has no gods or goddesses. So no promised afterlife. And no Wall for those who reject the promise.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Has it ever been said what does happen to souls of Abeirans? Afterlife usually goes hand-in-hand with gods, but it isn't always the case (especially if worship isn't required).
I don't think Abeirans were affected in any way at any point, unless they were immortal on Abeir and started dying only when "moved" to Toril there MUST be something happening to the souls of the deceased over there and that would be their fate on Toril too.
Which leads us to ...
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I wish we’d gotten like, 30% more Abeir.
Yep, more information is always good, especially when the cultures that came from there are going to stay.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The Wall is gone. Good riddance. It added nothing good to Realmslore. I will not miss it.
Can't say I will miss it (in more than 20 years playing and DMing it was mentioned in ... 2-3 sessions maybe?) but I will keep saying that it had it's own logic for Faerun (not the whole of Toril).
If only people could have examined it within the setting and stop projecting their own philosophy in discussions about the "canon" of the Realms (whatever happens at individual gaming tables is obviously free of any such constraint).
But the way it was handled is quite poor, as others have said.
Whatever you thought about the Wall and the Faithless business, if it was deemed a problem big enough to take action based on player feedback they should have done something to it, not swipe it under the carpet. Without going into painful bits of real world history, if something really bad happens, the answer is to discuss and condemn it, not ignore it.
I understand it would have taken a bit of creative work to deal with it properly but they already had it done (in a pseudo-canon way) through the plot of the Neverwinter Nights: Mask of the Betrayer crpg. They could've just taken that plot out of the "mortal" timeline (we don't have timestamps for "crusades" happening outside the Prime so it could've happened at any time) and have it happen during the Second Sundering.
Have a blurb describing how some unnamed heroes fought the vestiges of the evil power of Myrkul by leading a revolt that took down the Wall for good and how Kelemvor (and his minions) did not interfere because it was in the souls rights to do that or whatever noble reasons and you have it done. The Wall gets taken down, Myrkul is the villain we all love to hate, Kelemvor gets a little bit more respect and you've made the player base happy.
I'm sure there are even more ways in which they could have directly faced "the Wall issue" and dealt with it meaningfully, like they did by firmly stating that orcs are not just born mindless evil beasts.
Swiping it under the carpet feels unsatisfying and sets a bad precedent (exaggerating here: what if RAS wins his struggles and Eilistraee is "Errata-ed" out of rulebooks without a word of explanation?).
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Didn't Kelemvor created some Mirror Wall in the novels that they latter ignored for the Wall of the Faithless? They can just bring that back.
That's his abode/courtroom, where the walls are made so that the souls judged (and anything that passed by really) can be seen for what they truly are and what they truly did in life. It was never a replacement for the Wall of the Faithless which is (or was, I guess we should say now) the wall encircling the City of Judgement on the Fugue Plane. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 15:03:47
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I really don't mind Eilistraee, either (she is getting way too "Mystra-treatment" to my taste), but I get your point. But wasn't RAS changing the afterlife of the Realms? I guess this will be dealt with in his next novel.
That, or the newly hired sensibility readers WotC hired adviced them to remove it.
EDIT:
Now that I think about it, this can be related to the cancelled Dragonlance novels... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Nov 2020 15:16:13 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 15:21:32
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| I think there was just some designer that didn't like it, so they nixed it. That's been their policy for a while -- ignore the fanbase and stomp on any lore that doesn't immediately fit into whatever they're doing. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 15:21:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Swiping it under the carpet feels unsatisfying and sets a bad precedent (exaggerating here: what if RAS wins his struggles and Eilistraee is "Errata-ed" out of rulebooks without a word of explanation?).
That's called "the 3e->4e transition". Except it was even worse, because WotC retconned Eilistraee out of the Realms by intentionally subverting her character and lore into something gross and unrecognizable that only had the same name as her. And I mean, their goal was to get people to dislike her, according to some FR authors, so... Seeing that crap re-retconned into oblivion was one good use of the retconning tool.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I really don't mind Eilistraee, either (she is getting way too "Mystra-treatment" to my taste)
WotC has been only downplaying her or painting her as irrelevant up to now (for more than a decade). On top of that, they decided to not even mention what we're told about her and her followers in Death Masks (and it's quite big) when writing their Waterdeep Adventure; only RAS' dudebros are the focus as far as drow go, despite the Eilistraeans recently becoming relevant in Waterdeep. In Dungeon of the Mad Mage they come to the point of pretending the Promenade has never existed--basically, they retconned it out of existence >.>
The only person currently giving lore about her is Ed, through a few of his tweets (and only to give closure to what happens in Death Masks). I was (positively) shocked to learn you could pick her as a deity in BG3. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Nov 2020 15:42:06 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 16:26:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Swiping it under the carpet feels unsatisfying and sets a bad precedent (exaggerating here: what if RAS wins his struggles and Eilistraee is "Errata-ed" out of rulebooks without a word of explanation?).
That's called "the 3e->4e transition". Except it was even worse, because WotC retconned Eilistraee out of the Realms by intentionally subverting her character and lore into something gross and unrecognizable that only had the same name as her. And I mean, their goal was to get people to dislike her, according to some FR authors, so... Seeing that crap re-retconned into oblivion was one good use of the retconning tool.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I really don't mind Eilistraee, either (she is getting way too "Mystra-treatment" to my taste)
WotC has been only downplaying her or painting her as irrelevant up to now (for more than a decade). On top of that, they decided to not even mention what we're told about her and her followers in Death Masks (and it's quite big) when writing their Waterdeep Adventure; only RAS' dudebros are the focus as far as drow go, despite the Eilistraeans recently becoming relevant in Waterdeep. In Dungeon of the Mad Mage they come to the point of pretending the Promenade has never existed--basically, they retconned it out of existence >.>
The only person currently giving lore about her is Ed, through a few of his tweets (and only to give closure to what happens in Death Masks). I was (positively) shocked to learn you could pick her as a deity in BG3.
She does get some mentions in both the SCAG and in MTOFs (MTOF also mentions her more obscure lawful sister who stayed in the Seldarine instead of joining the Dark Seldarine, although it doesn't go into detail on her, although a search shows she is kind of an Elven Paladin God). |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 16:32:22
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The disappearance of the Wall of the Faithless appears connected to the next Drizzt Trilogy were Drizzt goes on a quest to save everyones souls, while Jaralxel (I mangled his name) works to save Menzo.
And the previous trilogy laid the ground work for a Drizzt Planeswalker (we know FR is getting an Magic the Gathering set next year in the Summer) so all evidence is pointing towards a major Realms Shaking Event, maybe even a multiverse shaking event akin to Die, Vecna, Die, to achieve various goals like MtG D&D crossover that make sense and giving them an excuse to release a Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book for 5e. 2021 is going to be the most eventful year for the Forgotten Realms since the novel line died. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 16:34:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
She does get some mentions in both the SCAG and in MTOFs (MTOF also mentions her more obscure lawful sister who stayed in the Seldarine instead of joining the Dark Seldarine, although it doesn't go into detail on her, although a search shows she is kind of an Elven Paladin God).
Yeah, she gets small writeups (that paint her as irrelevant and useles in MToF, btw), but that's just bare minimum inclusion. It's definitely not "the Mystra treatment", heh. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 17:50:20
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| Can't say I'm too worked up about it. It's less of a retcon than an omission. That said, I agree with many of you that this was a lost story opportunity, even if only in a couple sentences. And that said, I always liked the wall. In a world filled with real gods, it made sense that the faithless and false would face some sort of purgatory to me. It's not a judgment on anyone's real world values, just a conceit of D&D and the Realms. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 18:03:06
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@Tom you mean concept?
In general it was surprising to learn that Eilistraee has a sister though. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 18:03:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yeah, she gets small writeups (that paint her as irrelevant and useles in MToF, btw), but that's just bare minimum inclusion. It's definitely not "the Mystra treatment", heh.
Compared with what other gods get in 5e, it feels like the "Mystra treatment". |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 18:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yeah, she gets small writeups (that paint her as irrelevant and useles in MToF, btw), but that's just bare minimum inclusion. It's definitely not "the Mystra treatment", heh.
Compared with what other gods get in 5e, it feels like the "Mystra treatment".
All the Dark Seldarine get the same, most other gods get writeups as well.. and on top of that, her writeup basically says "no one knows her; she tries to lure the drow away but she's powerless; the fate of the souls of her people is unknown".
That definitely isn't the Mystra treatment. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 18:16:50
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| If worship is currency and the person's soul is the payoff, this Wall sounds like a waste. It would be better that the soul be sent back for another turn, sans memories, so they can try again to have faith. If "he who has the most souls wins", I don't see any of the gods liking this arrangement. Sure, some other god may get that soul but at least I (being a particular god) have a chance to get it, too. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 19:20:32
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd imagine the people most worried about this are the people who have cultures that don't accept the gods because they came from Abeir. Honestly, I couldn't care one way or the other, but rather than retcon to just remove mention of it, they should instead have some story/plot that destroys it. For instance, have Ao tell Kelemvor that the wall is unfair treatment to the people who came over from Abeir and to return those souls to Abeir itself.... but it involves destroying the wall entirely because you can't just pull certain souls out... or some other BS like that.
From my understanding, the Wall only affects those under Kel/Myrkul's sphere of influence/jurisdiction. So those in, say. Zakhara, answer to their own divinity, so I don't think the Wall applies to them. Not sure about Abeir though.
I agree however that, rather than just omitting it, they should provide a canonical explanation. And they haven't omitted unclaimed souls turning into larvae, which isn't any better, imho, and basically just replaces the faithless ending up on the Wall.
Actually, I'd prefer it that those unclaimed for this reason actually follow the way of Rashemen to a degree. Their spirits never leave Toril, and the land itself starts to collect "spirit energy". Telthors become more common. Weaveghosts.. things like that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 19:44:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Has it ever been said what does happen to souls of Abeirans? Afterlife usually goes hand-in-hand with gods, but it isn't always the case (especially if worship isn't required).
There is one hint of a possible Abeiran afterlife in the Liberator of the Steelsky paragon path (Forgotten Realms Player's Guide). The fluff part of it states that the souls of those who died under draconic or elemental oppression have become a form of divine power source that the Liberators use to power their paladin-like spells. It seems this energy is embedded in Abeir's Steelsky.
This only covers the afterlifes of those who died under the oppression of dragon and primordials and their genasi subjects, tho.
There is also the fact that the dragonborn came to Faerűn with funerary customs, which mean the must have some notion of an afterlife.
Yeah, from this (which btw, Zero thanks for pointing me to it a long time ago), I've assumed that magic in Abeir is kind of like incarnum based. Since we have had Ed validate that magic exists in both worlds (relatively recently in twitter, and actually several years prior whenever he did an article on worldfire and talked about spellcasters on both sides), my assumptions about how magic works on Abeir have always been something I like to speculate about.
I think magic on Abeir may have some or all of these as options. There's nothing to this list other than personal taste, but its a start based on some of the things we've seen
1) magic requires the use of material components. This doesn't mean you can use something like a spellcasting focus to replace the need for material components. Its like what we saw in 1e d&d, and if you want to cast magic missile you better carry a nail... and web requires a bit of spiderweb, etc...
2) Magic requires a local power source of some sort to be nearby OR you need something that allows you to tap into an existing power source that's remote. What do I mean by that? You might have to carry a staff that's got a bit of crystal left over from the petrification of a dragon corpse, and that allows you to draw on that source even if you are far away from it.
3) Pertaining to #2 above, the faerunians unwittingly via setting up temples, gathering items as requested by the gods, etc... began setting up a "weave" in the areas where they lived by finding these items OR transferring their power into other sources (such as the idol of a deity in a temple to a god of magic). This started people of Abeir calling the lands from Toril "the lands of belief", because it seemed that their faith was making magic spread. In truth, unbeknownst to the mortals doing the work, it was simply the gods guiding them in the construction of a basic weave. This also means that magic was strong where these people lived, but weak anywhere that there weren't temples. So, say in Shyr, no weave would exist, and a link to divine magic would also be weak.
4) Divine magic works on Abeir, but not like on Toril. They have "place magic" like exists in Rashemen that draws on the spirits and ley lines. However, they also have divine magic that can exist through a weave, but it requires a lot more sacrifice. It requires local idols, and the more power, the more that important that idol. Destruction of the idol can have nasty repercussions for divine magic. This is somewhat represented by the DM's Guild product "Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class", and basically the "priestesses" on Abeir have access to divine spellcasting, but it requires a LOT of sacrifice to cast a spell. So, they don't do it unless its needed or will vastly improve things. Still, to the people of Abeir, this is an amazing thing. Also, in that product, it encourages the idea of priests creating "walking" versions of these idols that travel with them so that they can pray at them. Essentially, if we note these idols as something like a portable small weave anchor driven by devotion, its roaming around and MAKING people give devotion to the gods wherever the priest goes. I don't think the original author of that product saw it from this perspective, but it really works for this kind of plotline for Abeir. Essentially, the "priests" on Abeir were walking around with idols that looked like their gods. They used spells less and focused on protecting their idol AND letting their idol help them fight. In some ways, people might see this as the gods fighting for them in a small way. But, lots of priests, lots of idols, lots of devotion.... crowdsourcing magic via devotion and sacrifice.
5) Abeir had "binder" type magics which resembled that of a warlock, or probably more like a sha'ir. They could reach out to powerful elemental beings, primordials, powerful dragons, primal spirits, etc... via a pact to "fuel" their spellcasting. In some ways, this might resemble spirit shamans. In others it might resemble warlocks and binders. This essentially either pulled magic from the elemental planes or some other source TO Abeir OR used the magic inherent in the land from souls not going to their afterlife.
6) Dream magic existed. In many ways, this dream magic resembled how illusion magic was separate in 1e from "wizard" magic. It was also a magic of the mind to a degree, and thus Auppenser was also able to draw upon it.
Again, these are just my thoughts on the magic of Abeir. I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on the subject.
By the way, this same "reconstruction" of a weave is what had to happen on the Toril side as well after the spellplague. That's partly why magic was unstable for ten years, and it would have been faster had there been an actual god of magic to guide its reformation by guiding the clergy. Alas, Mystra was weak on Abeir, with her servants Savras, Auppenser, and Leira working to keep her alive (and to their surprise, possibly a freed Karsus, which possibly dragged the shadow weave to Abeir and tore it from Shar's control.... luckily, the two lovers, Mask and Leira would help with it as well). This was because dweomerheart had lost its anchor to Toril and "moved" to Abeir (as had some other godly domains, such as the one for Mulhorand's gods, Unther's gods, Leira's domain, etc...). Eventually, they went to the transferred portion of Soorenar, and with the aid of a mortal willing to take on his spirit, they found the phylactery of Velsharoon in his mortal abode of the Tower Terrible that was in Abeir. Thus was Velsharoon also drawn to Abeir, leaving Mellifleur in Toril with Velsharoon's body. With the lord of necromancy's aid, they began to resurrect dead gods of death and rebirth, which eventually led to......
I admit its not a perfect story, but its a start. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Nov 2020 20:45:11 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 19:56:43
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
If worship is currency and the person's soul is the payoff, this Wall sounds like a waste. It would be better that the soul be sent back for another turn, sans memories, so they can try again to have faith. If "he who has the most souls wins", I don't see any of the gods liking this arrangement. Sure, some other god may get that soul but at least I (being a particular god) have a chance to get it, too.
Lol, that's essentially what I was just saying with the "spirits" getting sucked into the lands. Seems like a lot of us are kind of thinking the same thing without even really "coordinating it". I personally like the idea that they get absorbed into the world just like the outer planes eventually absorb souls. In some ways, someone might view the outer planes as stealing magical energy from the prime in the form of souls, and this is one way that some worlds might end up being more high magic.
Of course, the ultimate question kind of comes down to "if souls are energy, where does the source of this actual energy come from on the prime in the first place". That becomes an altogether different question, and its an interesting idea to peruse. For instance, is "soul" energy something that drains into the crystal sphere via the openings to the plane of radiance that is the stars? Does it somehow flow here from "the positive energy plane"? Maybe something else. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 20:16:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
If worship is currency and the person's soul is the payoff, this Wall sounds like a waste. It would be better that the soul be sent back for another turn, sans memories, so they can try again to have faith. If "he who has the most souls wins", I don't see any of the gods liking this arrangement. Sure, some other god may get that soul but at least I (being a particular god) have a chance to get it, too.
Lol, that's essentially what I was just saying with the "spirits" getting sucked into the lands. Seems like a lot of us are kind of thinking the same thing without even really "coordinating it". I personally like the idea that they get absorbed into the world just like the outer planes eventually absorb souls. In some ways, someone might view the outer planes as stealing magical energy from the prime in the form of souls, and this is one way that some worlds might end up being more high magic.
Of course, the ultimate question kind of comes down to "if souls are energy, where does the source of this actual energy come from on the prime in the first place". That becomes an altogether different question, and its an interesting idea to peruse. For instance, is "soul" energy something that drains into the crystal sphere via the openings to the plane of radiance that is the stars? Does it somehow flow here from "the positive energy plane"? Maybe something else.
If the soul gets absorbed by the land, maybe that is where "place spirits" come from?
If souls are some kind of currency, I would think that a new soul is created by the reproduction of intelligent life. It is life that creates souls and it is the outer planes that "consumes" them.
Oh, I just had a brutal idea. What if these souls do go into this Wall but they can be drawn out as the animating force for magical constructs? What if the Warforged are the recycled souls of the unfaithful? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 21:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
If worship is currency and the person's soul is the payoff, this Wall sounds like a waste. It would be better that the soul be sent back for another turn, sans memories, so they can try again to have faith. If "he who has the most souls wins", I don't see any of the gods liking this arrangement. Sure, some other god may get that soul but at least I (being a particular god) have a chance to get it, too.
Lol, that's essentially what I was just saying with the "spirits" getting sucked into the lands. Seems like a lot of us are kind of thinking the same thing without even really "coordinating it". I personally like the idea that they get absorbed into the world just like the outer planes eventually absorb souls. In some ways, someone might view the outer planes as stealing magical energy from the prime in the form of souls, and this is one way that some worlds might end up being more high magic.
Of course, the ultimate question kind of comes down to "if souls are energy, where does the source of this actual energy come from on the prime in the first place". That becomes an altogether different question, and its an interesting idea to peruse. For instance, is "soul" energy something that drains into the crystal sphere via the openings to the plane of radiance that is the stars? Does it somehow flow here from "the positive energy plane"? Maybe something else.
If the soul gets absorbed by the land, maybe that is where "place spirits" come from?
If souls are some kind of currency, I would think that a new soul is created by the reproduction of intelligent life. It is life that creates souls and it is the outer planes that "consumes" them.
Oh, I just had a brutal idea. What if these souls do go into this Wall but they can be drawn out as the animating force for magical constructs? What if the Warforged are the recycled souls of the unfaithful?
Oh ho ho.... I'm glad we started this discussion, that warforged idea is a neat one. I like where you're going. I hadn't gone THERE exactly, but if you look at my DM's guild product "the complete red book of spell strategy", it notes something about the "constructs" created by the vremyonni of Rashemen. More on that below
I also like the idea that maybe Lantan picked up on this concept while in Abeir, and a lot of their constructs are doing something similar.
Just for discussions sake, here's what I did with the vremyonni
Improved Telthor Construct Familiar
Starting at 2nd level, the wizards of the Vremyonni arcane tradition learn a new ritual. This ritual is called Bind Vremyonni Telthor Construct Familiar (see new rituals section). Your familiar, rather than being a fey animal, is a Telthor of a dead humanoid (usually human, and who died heroically protecting either ancient Raumathor or the country of Rashemen, and many of which may be dead Vremyonni) which takes possession of an item. As such, the items in which you can instill them can be something more in tune with what they may have used as living beings (such as martial weapons, shields, and eventually full suits of armor, etc....).
then the ritual... highlighting some in bold to show how I'm using hit dice to control the use of this spell even though its a ritual.
The rituals in this section are not specific to any one class' spell list. They are learned via feats or class abilities that open you to specific regional types of spellcasters and how they learn their magic. As a result, these spells cannot be learned by outsiders unless they somehow obtain the appropriate feats, class abilities, or through DM adjudication.
Bind Vremyonni Telthor Construct Familiar
1st-level enchantment (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: 10 feet
Components: V,S,M (10 gp worth of charcoal, incense, and herbs that must be consumed by fire in a brass brazier. Also, the caster must have something that belonged to the Telthor Spirit that he is attempting to bind. Also, there must be the item that the Telthor spirit will be bound to. Also, note the special note about hit dice. Only the charcoal, incense, and herbs are lost during this casting)
Duration: Instantaneous
This spell works similar to the spell find familiar, and the character cannot use this spell and find familiar at the same time. There are some important differences though. The main one is that casting this spell requires the spellcaster to give some of their essence to the land. This takes the form of the character expending one of its hit dice for the day. Next, the standard find familiar spell summons the spirts of a celestial, fey, or fiend that is of a selection of certain small beast types that the caster can choose. The find familiar spirit takes on corporeal form. Bind Vremyonni Telthor Construct Familiar spell does not create this corporeal form and thus this spell requires you to provide an item of special construction (essentially, the item should have been one that once held some kind of elemental, fey, or plant spirit). Also, Bind Vremyonni Telthor Construct Familiar summons a special otherworldly fey spirit known as a Telthor (see new monsters) to inhabit the item. Most Telthor spirits are simple animals, but the Vremyonni specifically call upon humanoid spirits with this spell (mostly humans from the Raumathar Empire or the country of Rashemen) that were turned into Telthor upon their death.
The spirit drawn can be coerced into inhabiting a non-magical simple or martial one-handed melee weapon if said melee weapon is composed of some materials that were formerly of elemental, fey, or living plant origin (it should be noted here that the Vremyonni over the last century have taken to secretly mining ironfell from the body of Telos in Vaasa for just this express purpose and have had interesting results in their experimentation). The cost of a simple weapon made of these materials is typically 10 times the cost of a normal weapon of similar make (so a war pick or trident is 50 gp, a battle axe, flail, or shortsword is 100 gp, a longsword, morningstar, or warhammer is 150 gp, and a rapier or scimitar is 250 gp). Silvering the weapon costs the normal 100 gp extra.
This weapon inhabited by the familiar is treated as an animated object similar to a Flying Sword (and exactly like a flying sword if your weapon is a longsword). See the monster manual entry for animated objects for statistics. The weapon also takes on the intelligence, wisdom, and charisma characteristics of the Telthor Spirit inhabiting it (choose a 16, 13, and 11 and allow the caster to determine to which it applies). Typically, higher intelligence Telthors are former Eldritch Knights or wizards, higher wisdom ones are clerical or druid Hathrans or male paladins or rangers, and higher charisma ones are former bards, sorcerers, paladins, rogues, or occasionally fey or spirit shaman pact warlocks. Take this into account if roleplaying this familiar. The type of weapon can also change its other statistics as follows from that of a Flying Sword.
Trident, damage is 1d6+1 piercing
Battle Axe, is treated exactly the same as a Flying Sword
Flail & Warhammer, simply change the damage type to bludgeoning
Morningstar & Warpick, simply change the damage type to piercing
Shortsword/Scimitar/Rapier – change to +4 to hit, but only 1d6+1 slashing
damage
All rules about familiar's apply, except that it can attack, and when the familiar is dismissed it leaves behind the weapon that it had animated. If the familiar drops to 0 hit points, the weapon is destroyed and cannot be reused by a newly summoned familiar (unless of course the weapon is mended with a mending cantrip or similar). Since the familiar's “body” is just a non-magical item, it can be repaired of damage through castings of the mending cantrip (repairing 1d4 hit points of damage per casting).
At Higher Levels. As you cast this spell at higher and higher levels, it requires the spellcaster to sacrifice more of his essence to the land in order to call a more powerful telthor spirit. Mechanically, this means the character must expend hit dice equal to the spell slot level used in order to cast this spell (so casting it as a 5th level spell requires the expenditure of 5 hit dice). Hit dice expended are regained after a long rest as usual.
When you cast this ritual using a spell slot of 2nd level the weapon can be a nonmagical simple or martial Heavy, two-handed melee weapon. In addition, the strength of the telthor increases from 12 to 14. This makes the changes the following from that of a
Flying Sword
Glaive & Halberd, +4 to hit, 1d10+2 slashing, plus having reach
Greataxe +4 to hit, 1d12+2 slashing
Greatsword +4 to hit, 2d6+2 slashing
Maul +4 to hit, 2d6+2 bludgeoning
Pike +4 to hit, 1d10+2 piercing, plus having reach
When you cast this ritual using a spell slot of 3rd level the “weapon” can actually be a combination of two devices working in concert. First would be a non-magical onehanded martial weapon like that made at first level. The second could either be a nonmagical light one-handed martial weapon (i.e. shortsword, scimitar, etc...) OR a nonmagical shield instead (giving a constant +2 shield bonus to the spellcaster's AC).
When you cast this ritual using a spell slot of 4th level you have learned enough to give the telthor much more control over that which it possesses. You can have the telthor possess a suit of non-magical plate armor instead, becoming effectively Animated Armor (see animated objects in the monster manual), which you may arm with whatever weapon or shield that you like (even magical ones), such that you can modify its statistics accordingly.
When you cast this ritual using a spell slot of 5th level, change the Animated Armor's Strength from 14 to 16 (giving an additional +1 to hit and damage) and its Constitution from 13 to 14 (raising its hit points to 39).
When you cast this ritual using a spell slot of 6th level, the suit of armor animated becomes the equivalent of a Helmed Horror. The armor must be non-magical still, but the weapon and/or shield used by the Helmed Horror may be whatever you supply it. You may also choose the spells that it is immune to.
When you cast this ritual using a spell slot of 7th level, the Helmed Horror gains the use of one of your damaging cantrips, and when it uses its action to cast this cantrip, it may make one weapon attack as a bonus action (similar to the war magic feature of the eldritch knight).
When you cast this ritual using a spell slot of 8th level, it gains all previous features from the 7th level version, plus it learns a second damaging cantrip and its strength increases to 20 and constitution increases to 18.
When you cast this ritual using a spell slot of 9th level, it gains all previous features from the 7th & 8th level version, plus it gains the ability to cast Magic Missile and Chromatic Orb up to 3 times per day (as if cast using a 4th level spell slot).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 21:39:44
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Also, since we're discussing it (sacrificing life energy to the land and summoning spirits)... here's what I did for durthans for 5e
Call Telthor Spirit
4th-level enchantment (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: 10 feet
Components: V,S,M (10 gp worth of charcoal, incense, and herbs that must be consumed by fire in a brass brazier. Also, note the special note about hit dice.)
Duration: Instantaneous
This spell works similar to the spell find familiar, but this spell does not replace the spellcaster's familiar and the Telthor Spirit summoned is free to attack or defend itself. There are some important differences though. The main one is that casting this spell requires the spellcaster to give some of their essence to the land. This takes the form of the character expending four of its hit dice for the day. Secondly, the Telthor Spirit takes on the Telthor Template (thus, being ghostly in form rather than being a standard beast). The Telthor Spirit called can take on the form of a beast that is no larger than medium and that has a challenge rating of 1/4 or lower (from appendix D of the player's handbook, good examples include boar, mastiff, mule, panther, and wolf, or from the monster manual pony, giant wolf spider, giant weasel, giant rat, giant poisonous snake, giant frog, giant crab, giant badger, giant centipede, blood hawk). Add your proficiency bonus to the beast's AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls, as well as to any saving throws and skills it is proficient in. Its hit point maximum equals its normal hit point maximum or four times your Character Level. As a bonus action each round, you may telepathically order your familiar to perform any action it is capable of. The caster may only control the Spirits called by a single casting of Call Telthor Spirit at any one time.
At Higher Levels. As you cast this spell at higher and higher levels, it requires the spellcaster to sacrifice more of his essence to the land in order to call more telthor spirits. Mechanically, this means the character must expend hit dice equal to the spell slot level used in order to cast this spell (so casting it as a 6th level spell requires the expenditure of 6 hit dice). Hit dice expended are regained after a long rest as usual. When you cast this ritual using a spell slot of 6th lvl or higher, the number of Telthor Spirits that answer the call increases by one for every two slot levels above 4th.
Telthor Template
A beast, humanoid, giant, or monstrosity can become a telthor. Generally these beings are most often beasts, with human heroes following soon behind. Often these heroes return by appearing inside the empty suits of armor and picking up the weapons they wielded in life, and thus many families keep the armor and weapons of the fallen in their households in places of reverence so that they can easily return if the family should need. When a creature becomes a telthor, it retains its statistics except as noted below.
Condition Immunities. Exhaustion, frightened, paralyzed, petrified, prone, restrained
Damage Resistances: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from non-magical weapons
Incorporeal Movement. The telthor can move through other creatures and objects as if they were difficult terrain. It takes 5 (1d10) force damage if it ends its turn inside an object.
Bound to the Land. A telthor is tied to the place it guards and is weakened if it moves more than 1 mile from that place. Outside of this area, it takes 1 point of damage every minute. This damage ends immediately if it enters its home area again. Telthors can sense the boundaries of their territory and normally do not leave them except to warn others of danger. Rashemen legends tell of telthors that traveled miles to warn the hathrans of an invasion and then died from the pain of separation before they could be healed.
Native Animal Empathy. Telthors can communicate and empathize with animals of their kind. This gives them a +4 bonus on checks to influence the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as “friend,” “enemy,” “flee,” and “attack.” A humanoid telthor chooses one kind of animal for its empathic bond and gains this ability for that kind of animal only.
Telthor Telepathy. Telthors can communicate with one another telepathically, regardless of language, at a range of 100 feet. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2020 : 22:00:18
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| Nice. There always seemed to be a disconnect for intelligent weapons and constructs. Did the caster put some of themselves in there or, as I have seen in some materials, that an "elemental spirit" is summoned and installed. There are already spells that "duplicate" a caster's mind like simulacrum and the spell improved magic mouth with various and assorted penalties but what about truly permanent items? If some elemental lord started having his subjects just disappear, he might get upset and want to track down what happened to them. But, if the animating spirit is a soul that no one really gives a darn about, you won't have to worry about some mad elemental lord showing up and asking you just what the heck do you think you are doing. Also, since Warforged were being created in numbers, you would think that some other-planar SOMEONE would have gotten curious. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 12 Nov 2020 22:03:39 |
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SCAG Errata--the Wall
