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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
 Posted - 04 May 2004 : 00:49:09
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I was wondering having read a diffrent source what are the crystal spheres are they merley other dimensions. Does it mean by some way Toril and Kyrnn are connected?
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Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 01:15:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
I was wondering having read a diffrent source what are the crystal spheres are they merley other dimensions. Does it mean by some way Toril and Kyrnn are connected?
Well...
Part of the intent when creating the Spelljammer setting, in addition to introducing arcane space travel, was to allow characters to travel between worlds without having to go via the planes. Krynn presented a particular problem, because the gods are constellations, and when the gods aren't around, their constellations weren't, either.
The solution was to somehow isolate each game world from each other. That way, things like constellations in one solar system could be rearranged without affecting other systems. So each solar system was enclosed in a huge-mongous crystal sphere. This neatly solved that issue.
Each sphere is exceedlingly large -- generally, whatever the radius of the solar system is, the sphere is double that.
The spheres themselves float in this stuff called the phlogiston. It's like a river, almost, with the spheres bobbing about in it. The stuff is also extremely flammable, and cannot exist inside a crystal sphere.
Krynn's sphere was called Krynnspace, the Realms is in Realmspace, and Greyhawk is in Greyspace. Athas exists in a crystal sphere, too, but its sphere is inaccessible. Ravenloft is not a world in and of itself, so it doesn't exist in a crystal sphere. However, the Mists can reach into space and snag ships or people.
So yes, it is possible (or was, in 2nd edition) to travel from Krynn to Oerth to Toril, without ever crossing the planes. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 May 2004 01:16:36 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 01:21:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ravenloft is not a world in and of itself, so it doesn't exist in a crystal sphere. However, the Mists can reach into space and snag ships or people.
Ravenloft was/is a demiplane in the Ethereal and the mists could snag people from the Prime because the Ethereal was the border between the Prime and the Inner (the elemental) Planes.
Note: 3e changed this and made the Astral the plane that surrounds both the Outer Planes and the Inner Planes, thus making the Ethereal sort of useless. :) |
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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 01:51:46
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Thanks for the info Wooly Rupert it certainly clears things up. |
Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 09:02:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
Thanks for the info Wooly Rupert it certainly clears things up.
Hey, not a problem! As far as game settings go, Spelljammer was my first love... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 18:17:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Krynn presented a particular problem, because the gods are constellations, and when the gods aren't around, their constellations weren't, either.
The only part of this I didn't kow. Thanks for that, Furry One.  I hadn't known about that problem.
Let me repay you by pointing out that "phlogiston" isn't a word that TSR made up. It's acutally from old "science" (natural philosophy, to be precise; "science" as we knew it didn't exist as anything other than philosophy at the time), and describes a medium for the flow of heat. It's an imponderable substance; that is, it can't be seen or felt. (I did point out that it was philosophy, remember?  )
Anyway, that's why you don't want to light up while travelling in between crystal spheres.  |
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D-brane
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 07:29:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Krynn presented a particular problem, because the gods are constellations, and when the gods aren't around, their constellations weren't, either.
That's not entirely accurate. You see, after Takhisis moved the world, it was speculated (and later proven) that the gods could indeed reach Krynn, even though their constellations did not appear in the night's sky. This also showed that the deities (well some of them) could reach beyond (what would normally be considered the boundary of the 2e Krynnspace crystal sphere) the confines of their plane of existence.
Just because the constellations aren't there, doesn't mean the deities aren't as well. It's a problem from the Chronicles series that was later revised in 3e.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 08:08:33
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quote:
Originally posted by D-brane
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Krynn presented a particular problem, because the gods are constellations, and when the gods aren't around, their constellations weren't, either.
That's not entirely accurate. You see, after Takhisis moved the world, it was speculated (and later proven) that the gods could indeed reach Krynn, even though their constellations did not appear in the night's sky. This also showed that the deities (well some of them) could reach beyond (what would normally be considered the boundary of the 2e Krynnspace crystal sphere) the confines of their plane of existence.
Just because the constellations aren't there, doesn't mean the deities aren't as well. It's a problem from the Chronicles series that was later revised in 3e.
No, that was entirely accurate. I was speaking of when the setting was created. When the Spelljammer setting came out, the Second Cataclysm had not yet occurred, and the Chronicles had not yet been retconned. Third edition was not even on the drawing board.
At that time, if a constellation was not present in the heavens, then that god was not in the heavens, either. The creators of the Spelljammer setting had to work around that.
I don't recall if this info came from one of the many Spelljammer supplements, or from an issue of Dragon where the creators described making the setting, but I do remember having read that. |
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D-brane
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 08:21:14
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Oh, I understand that  .
I'm still not entirely sure though. Some references have been made (even in 2e) that stated otherwise. I'll have to track them down.
There was even talk on the first incarnation of the SJ Mailing List back in 1993 where Jeff Grubb spoke of the possibility that I just mentioned here . . . and this was nearly ten years before the War of Souls. It was simply a question of the power level of the deity that was to be considered.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 00:26:00
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Learned Scribe Flay,
I do believe the answer is yes. I am referencing the Wizard's Three articles in Dragon Magazine's #185 and 196.
Point of note though: I am coming from the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms, and Pathfinder.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
I was wondering having read a diffrent source what are the crystal spheres are they merley other dimensions. Does it mean by some way Toril and Kyrnn are connected?
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 00:55:33
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I've come to the conclusion that like some of the Outer Planes, the Prime Material Plane has infinite layers -- and each of the campaign settings occupies its own layer of the Prime.
To me, this is the only way to reconcile how some campaign settings have entirely different rules, but are still set on the Prime and still reach the same Outer and Inner Planes. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 14:19:44
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Master Rupert,
So, to better understand your perspective there, do you feel that the TV show, Quantum Leap would make for a good analogy in terms of the Prime Material plane, as you see it?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've come to the conclusion that like some of the Outer Planes, the Prime Material Plane has infinite layers -- and each of the campaign settings occupies its own layer of the Prime.
To me, this is the only way to reconcile how some campaign settings have entirely different rules, but are still set on the Prime and still reach the same Outer and Inner Planes.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 15:21:30
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I don't think Sliders or Quantum Leap are good comparisons -- one focused on time travel, and the other, while it did feature alternate Earths, did so without any focus on anything beyond Earth.
But to reiterate... A lot of the Outer Planes had multiple layers. Each one might be very different, but they were all part of the same plane. The Nine Hells, for example, were nine separate layers. At least one was the classic fiery pit, but another was covered in ice and extreme Arctic conditions. Despite those differences, though, they were all part of the Nine Hells and thus all basically occupied the same place in the planar structure.
The issue with the Prime is that all the campaign settings that fit into Planescape were on the Prime. But these settings had differences -- in the Realms, for example, it was possible to bring in electronic devices from elsewhere, but the physics of the Realms would prevent them from working. On Oerth, though, there was a big crashed spaceship somewhere, and there was no issue with devices from that spaceship remaining functional. Smoke powder functions on one world but not the other, as well. So if it's one Prime, why are the rules different from one place to another?
Plus, going at it from the Spelljammer model, each of these settings had a very definite boundary - the edge of its sphere.
Planescape, though, and even the earlier planar material, only refered to one singular Prime. So we either had just one Prime that was broken into chunks where things could be different but it was still, somehow, all the same Prime, or we had multiple alternate Primes that had no connection at all to each other yet still somehow fit into the Great Wheel, or -- the simplest solution -- one Prime, with multiple layers, matching what already exists for other planes on the Great Wheel.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 15:54:05
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Master Rupert,
As to the different physical aspects occurring differently in one place than another, do you feel that is explained away by different features within different Wild Spaces, within a Crystal Sphere? They are seemingly an imagined derivative of a Dyson Sphere (they include the son), and seemingly could have different properties within each one. I could 'sliding/leaping' as a sort of different version of travelling between crystal spheres in the phlogiston, but just sort of skipping the phlogiston.
I think if you treated each solar system/crystal sphere as being on the same prime, and you just traveled from one to another as seen in Spelljammer, it would work, if there were just different/unique conditions in each crystal sphere. As far as I know, that is not a listed thing, but then again, I didn't read up on Spelljammer much at all, as it really never interested me much.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think Sliders or Quantum Leap are good comparisons -- one focused on time travel, and the other, while it did feature alternate Earths, did so without any focus on anything beyond Earth.
But to reiterate... A lot of the Outer Planes had multiple layers. Each one might be very different, but they were all part of the same plane. The Nine Hells, for example, were nine separate layers. At least one was the classic fiery pit, but another was covered in ice and extreme Arctic conditions. Despite those differences, though, they were all part of the Nine Hells and thus all basically occupied the same place in the planar structure.
The issue with the Prime is that all the campaign settings that fit into Planescape were on the Prime. But these settings had differences -- in the Realms, for example, it was possible to bring in electronic devices from elsewhere, but the physics of the Realms would prevent them from working. On Oerth, though, there was a big crashed spaceship somewhere, and there was no issue with devices from that spaceship remaining functional. Smoke powder functions on one world but not the other, as well. So if it's one Prime, why are the rules different from one place to another?
Plus, going at it from the Spelljammer model, each of these settings had a very definite boundary - the edge of its sphere.
Planescape, though, and even the earlier planar material, only refered to one singular Prime. So we either had just one Prime that was broken into chunks where things could be different but it was still, somehow, all the same Prime, or we had multiple alternate Primes that had no connection at all to each other yet still somehow fit into the Great Wheel, or -- the simplest solution -- one Prime, with multiple layers, matching what already exists for other planes on the Great Wheel.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 17:43:47
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I take option c. A single prime which is broken into separate chunks with its own rules, each of which represents an alternate version of a similar thing.
That's option A. Option C is the multi-layered Prime, which matches the existing planar structure of the Great Wheel.
Since you prefer the single Prime approach, how do you address physics being different in these different chunks of Prime? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 17:46:21
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
As to the different physical aspects occurring differently in one place than another, do you feel that is explained away by different features within different Wild Spaces, within a Crystal Sphere? They are seemingly an imagined derivative of a Dyson Sphere (they include the son), and seemingly could have different properties within each one. I could 'sliding/leaping' as a sort of different version of travelling between crystal spheres in the phlogiston, but just sort of skipping the phlogiston.
I think if you treated each solar system/crystal sphere as being on the same prime, and you just traveled from one to another as seen in Spelljammer, it would work, if there were just different/unique conditions in each crystal sphere. As far as I know, that is not a listed thing, but then again, I didn't read up on Spelljammer much at all, as it really never interested me much.
I don't see any way to explain the changing laws of physics, aside from going with different planes or planar layers. If it's all one plane, with no layers, then the rules should be constant throughout that plane.
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 18:05:25
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Master Rupert,
I certainly get your point there. It seems to me that with the phlogiston being known to be non-homogenous, and with the crystal spheres being sort of bastardized versions of Dyson Spheres, that one could argue, since phlogiston has no impact on the inside of the crystal spheres. I don't think there is anything to support that at all, but since Wild Space does allow for planar travel, but when being out in the phlogiston does not, it seems that there may be something there. What do you think about that idea?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
As to the different physical aspects occurring differently in one place than another, do you feel that is explained away by different features within different Wild Spaces, within a Crystal Sphere? They are seemingly an imagined derivative of a Dyson Sphere (they include the son), and seemingly could have different properties within each one. I could 'sliding/leaping' as a sort of different version of travelling between crystal spheres in the phlogiston, but just sort of skipping the phlogiston.
I think if you treated each solar system/crystal sphere as being on the same prime, and you just traveled from one to another as seen in Spelljammer, it would work, if there were just different/unique conditions in each crystal sphere. As far as I know, that is not a listed thing, but then again, I didn't read up on Spelljammer much at all, as it really never interested me much.
I don't see any way to explain the changing laws of physics, aside from going with different planes or planar layers. If it's all one plane, with no layers, then the rules should be constant throughout that plane.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 19:17:25
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Great Reader dazzlerdal,
I tell you what: I wish that this topic 100% would have just been given an absolute primer and not changed over the years so much. It is really annoying, and it has always been a barrier to enter to me as a customer to buy into that stuff.
I hope they get it figured out some day and just stick with it.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I take option c. A single prime which is broken into separate chunks with its own rules, each of which represents an alternate version of a similar thing.
That's option A. Option C is the multi-layered Prime, which matches the existing planar structure of the Great Wheel.
Since you prefer the single Prime approach, how do you address physics being different in these different chunks of Prime?
Much like a divine entity has total control over the part of his realm that is part of a bigger outer plane, each crystal sphere is it's own little universe existing alongside other universes and separated by the empty nothingness known as phlogiston but I use the border ethereal.
I'm absolutely fine with rules in different spheres being different. Put it down to overgods if you wish deciding on the rules for their own slice of the prime or just random happenstance. I am only concerned with to torils crystal sphere.
I actually don't see a difference between a layered prime and my version, it's all 8 dimensional anyway (or however many dimensions the science boffins have decided there are).
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 19:21:03
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I take option c. A single prime which is broken into separate chunks with its own rules, each of which represents an alternate version of a similar thing.
That's option A. Option C is the multi-layered Prime, which matches the existing planar structure of the Great Wheel.
Since you prefer the single Prime approach, how do you address physics being different in these different chunks of Prime?
Much like a divine entity has total control over the part of his realm that is part of a bigger outer plane, each crystal sphere is it's own little universe existing alongside other universes and separated by the empty nothingness known as phlogiston but I use the border ethereal.
I'm absolutely fine with rules in different spheres being different. Put it down to overgods if you wish deciding on the rules for their own slice of the prime or just random happenstance. I am only concerned with to torils crystal sphere.
I actually don't see a difference between a layered prime and my version, it's all 8 dimensional anyway (or however many dimensions the science boffins have decided there are).
So you don't see any issue at all with having the laws of physics changing from place to place?
The difference is that you're saying it's all one plane, with no layers, and the rules change from place to place on that plane. I'm saying it's separate layers of one plane, with different rules for each layer.
In other words, you're saying it's all one big building, with one room in it, but different rules for different parts of that room. I'm saying it's a multistory building, with each floor having different rules, but all still part of the same structure.
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 19:52:11
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Master Rupert,
I think it would solve a lot of problems. I mean, to begin with, we're already toying with an idea of what amounts to a bastardized Dyson Sphere as I said. When you look at some of the material that has been put out by Dr. deGrasse Tyson, the idea is that something that has a Dyson Sphere (in one form or another, and that seems to be what a crystal sphere is), then you have a Type II civilization. I could see, with magic (especially with epic magic) how the laws could be changed in a crystal sphere/Dyson Sphere.
As far as layers, yes, in this case I would be advocating for no layers, and just an infinite amount of crystal spheres. It kind of sounds bleak, but hey, that's what I am advocating at this point, haha.
I like the idea of the big building. Yeah, that is I feel the essential difference though, in a roundabout manner of speaking.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I take option c. A single prime which is broken into separate chunks with its own rules, each of which represents an alternate version of a similar thing.
That's option A. Option C is the multi-layered Prime, which matches the existing planar structure of the Great Wheel.
Since you prefer the single Prime approach, how do you address physics being different in these different chunks of Prime?
Much like a divine entity has total control over the part of his realm that is part of a bigger outer plane, each crystal sphere is it's own little universe existing alongside other universes and separated by the empty nothingness known as phlogiston but I use the border ethereal.
I'm absolutely fine with rules in different spheres being different. Put it down to overgods if you wish deciding on the rules for their own slice of the prime or just random happenstance. I am only concerned with to torils crystal sphere.
I actually don't see a difference between a layered prime and my version, it's all 8 dimensional anyway (or however many dimensions the science boffins have decided there are).
So you don't see any issue at all with having the laws of physics changing from place to place?
The difference is that you're saying it's all one plane, with no layers, and the rules change from place to place on that plane. I'm saying it's separate layers of one plane, with different rules for each layer.
In other words, you're saying it's all one big building, with one room in it, but different rules for different parts of that room. I'm saying it's a multistory building, with each floor having different rules, but all still part of the same structure.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 22:56:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've come to the conclusion that like some of the Outer Planes, the Prime Material Plane has infinite layers -- and each of the campaign settings occupies its own layer of the Prime.
Layers imply ordered sequence. Spheres are just bubbles in the same place relative to the rest of Multiverse, but not linked and as such unreachable other than via some other plane.
Generally the Flow is treated as another plane, with crystal shells as planar barrier.
But one could also view the Flow as the common Layer #2 of the Prime, "below" the Layer #1 of the spheres - this would explain why the Phlogiston seems to be inaccessible from anywhere else.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Planets can have different gravities.
IIRC, Spelljammer has rules for local gravity. But those were rarely used and affect mostly encumbrance and range of projectiles.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 23:59:36
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've come to the conclusion that like some of the Outer Planes, the Prime Material Plane has infinite layers -- and each of the campaign settings occupies its own layer of the Prime.
Layers imply ordered sequence. Spheres are just bubbles in the same place relative to the rest of Multiverse, but not linked and as such unreachable other than via some other plane.
Generally the Flow is treated as another plane, with crystal shells as planar barrier.
But one could also view the Flow as the common Layer #2 of the Prime, "below" the Layer #1 of the spheres - this would explain why the Phlogiston seems to be inaccessible from anywhere else.
I'm not talking about the phlogiston. I'm talking about the fact that we have one of three setups:
1) 1 Prime that is all one layer yet acts as if it has different layers (the one room building where different parts of the room operate differently despite being continguous with other areas)
2) 1 Prime with multiple layers (multiple floors within one building; each floor may or may not be different)
3) Multiple Primes that somehow all connect to the same planes and yet no one has ever noticed there is more than one.
While a layered approach does imply sequence, given the nature of the planes, I think that's easy enough to disregard. It is possible, in most cases, to go to a specific planar layer without having to start on the ground floor -- so a multilayered Prime could work the same way.
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 00:18:12
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Master TBeholder,
Not that this has come up at all yet, but I would, minus character stats, be using GURPS for space if I ever had something go on up there. It is way to FUBAR with space rules with WotC for my liking, haha.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've come to the conclusion that like some of the Outer Planes, the Prime Material Plane has infinite layers -- and each of the campaign settings occupies its own layer of the Prime.
Layers imply ordered sequence. Spheres are just bubbles in the same place relative to the rest of Multiverse, but not linked and as such unreachable other than via some other plane.
Generally the Flow is treated as another plane, with crystal shells as planar barrier.
But one could also view the Flow as the common Layer #2 of the Prime, "below" the Layer #1 of the spheres - this would explain why the Phlogiston seems to be inaccessible from anywhere else.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Planets can have different gravities.
IIRC, Spelljammer has rules for local gravity. But those were rarely used and affect mostly encumbrance and range of projectiles.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 00:37:47
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Master TBeholder,
I like the angle you're taking there with the layers effectively flowing into one another, instead of the layered approach for example as is often seen with images of the (9) layers of Hell.
I just get the feeling that there is so much linear thought that drove the planar development, that it made the ability to maintain a system from any edition really difficult, which is too bad. Also, between all of the editions, it has just been crazy trying to keep up with it, when the Realms are the primary focus (at least for me)! I think to date my favorite is Planescape, but that isn't due to any particular thing I feel.
Best regards, and as always, and thank you all for this very interesting discussion among many,
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Originally posted by TBeholder
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've come to the conclusion that like some of the Outer Planes, the Prime Material Plane has infinite layers -- and each of the campaign settings occupies its own layer of the Prime.
Layers imply ordered sequence. Spheres are just bubbles in the same place relative to the rest of Multiverse, but not linked and as such unreachable other than via some other plane.
Generally the Flow is treated as another plane, with crystal shells as planar barrier.
But one could also view the Flow as the common Layer #2 of the Prime, "below" the Layer #1 of the spheres - this would explain why the Phlogiston seems to be inaccessible from anywhere else.
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Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Planets can have different gravities.
IIRC, Spelljammer has rules for local gravity. But those were rarely used and affect mostly encumbrance and range of projectiles.
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Realmspace and Crystal Spheres
