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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I don't use that kind of stuff, I find it restrictive and punitive for the players.

I guess that if the religion the paladin is a member of has that kind of rules, then yeah, it would be a bit problematic for that paladin. But the only punishment I would impose would be among the faith (excommunication, penitency, etc.). Nothing that hinders his ability to actually play the game. That is not my style.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I would say as long as the paladin follows proper societal etiquette while adhering to their god's tenants, they are covered. If the god expects celibacy from its priests, the paladin should follow the same. If the god is more of a "bestow your blessings wherever invited" kind, I would think the paladin would be the same.

Also, a god may encourage relations under certain circumstances and not necessarily others. As an example, page 114 of Faiths and Avatars has this:

"The best-known to outsiders of the holy rituals of Mielikki are the Four Feasts of the solstice and equinox nights. These are known simply as the First Feast, the Second Feast, and so on. They are occasions for holy rituals and revels, wherein all Mielikki's faithful are expected to celebrate the sensual side of existence and sing praises to the Lady in forest depths wherever possible."

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Originally posted by Diffan

Because paladins need a Patron in my Realms games, it would largely depend on the customs of that deity and any societal customs of where their from. Different examples might be, a Paladin of Helm from Tethyr might take it upon himself to be chaste until marriage and the notion of flirting is out of the question where as a Paladin of Kossuth from Rasheman might not dwell much on Courtship and simply show likeness of potential suitors as they see fit, possibly more than one.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Celibacy really isn't a thing, for the most part, in the Realms.

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Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

This depends on the deity and church and any religious order.

In cannon we see plenty of married paladins and ones that have healthy night lives. Gareth Dragonsbane and Piergeiron the Paladinson, Ilmater and Tyr were both married.

Also the Realms being like "1400 Earth" don't have "flirting", but more "Middle Ages Courtly Love". The old 2E Paladins handbook had a whole chapter on this, and that book is well worth getting.

"Courtly Love was at its core a social relationship between a noble, valiant knight--and a beautiful, noble, and glorious woman that was essentially unobtainable by the knight pursuing her, and seeking her hand and a full, consumation of their love affair. The relationship could not typically be consumated because of moral sanctions; the woman in question was typically already married, and as adultery was held to be a terrible sin, and forbidden conduct to anyone that was pious, righteous and honourable. "

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Seeker Azar,

Those sorts of restrictions are purely dogma based. Dogma is just the divine command ethic of 'x' deity. I don't even recall a deity in the Realms that dogmatically enforces celibacy. Geez... I'd go find another deity, haha. That's just me though.

Which deity were you thinking of?

Best regards,

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The True Resurrection celebrates Torm's rise anew to power and is a joyous feast and revel where laws are set aside just for this one day and night so that the Tormtar can stray from the principles of law and order once a year. Most use this opportunity merely to shock others by speaking freely or by enjoying sensual pleasures with their fellow Tormtar—but a few every year employ it to bring vengeance down on someone.

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I know that earlier editions of D&D were relatively harsh when it came to conscious Chaotic acts (anything that broke from expected protocol, but wasn't actively malicious).

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Later on, the Paladin received more leeway; there was an increased emphasis on doing good than worrying about the letter of a law. In the worst cases, a Paladin would have to confess the liberty he had taken in his conduct...and that's all.

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Regardless, I can't envision a scenario where sincere-albeit-informal courting counts as an Evil act.

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She never struck me as being particularly preoccupied with such formalities (being a Neutral Good god concerned with maintaining the harmony between civilization and the wilderness). Any such limitations among her faithful are almost certainly self-imposed philosophy.

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Kossuth has Paladins ? Fascinating.

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I imagine it would be a bit of a hindrance with the attendant mortality rate.

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The Paladin in question is a follower of Torm. I haven't managed to nail down any concrete details on Torm's word concerning this particular subject other than possibly one narrow passage.

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Originally posted by Azar

Kossuth has Paladins ? Fascinating.

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Azar

Kossuth has Paladins ? Fascinating.

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It would certainly depend, I guess, on the edition you're running with. Most of my experience is with 3rd, 4th, and 5th Editions. With 3e/3.5 being probably the most restrictive, I'd point to the multitude of alt-alignment Paladins that have been produced over the years - in both Dragon magazine and in Unearthed Arcana. Great way to incorporate some different concepts to he Holy Warrior theme.

In 4E Paladins must be the alignment of their chosen deity but isn't restrictive to what that deity is. So you could have Paladins of Kossuth who are Unaligned (meaning they don't lean heavily one way or another) and work towards their churh's goals. Personally I like this model the best as it allow for a lot of flexibility AND I urge players to come with their own Organizations and Orders for their Paladins to be apart of.

In 5E, they're tied to Oaths, so it wouldn't be too difficult to see a Paladin swear to the Oath to the Flame Lord to carry out their desires on the Prime Material plane, whatever those desires are. Honestly I should come up with my own Flame-based Paladin Oath that would fit the concepts and ideals of Kossuth.

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader Diffan,

I will say, though I still utilize 3/3.5, and adopted effectively 4e/5e rules regarding paladins and other things years ago, it is a good thing that those ethical issues were dealt with in 4e/5e. A very good move for sure.

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Originally posted by cpthero2

I always found it odd that anti-paladin was a thing, as it did in fact make the paladin a weathervane for what was good and evil. Kind of silly in my eyes.

Best regards,

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, late in 2e they had paladins but they introduced a "non-paladin" religious fighter called a crusader. Kossuth had crusaders.

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I'd say that the whole concept of ethical elements should be something both DM and Player discuss during Session 0. So if a DM wants the classic LG-only style Paladin, it should be clear that ethical aspects could arise that will test that character. Every notion of Catch-22 should be thrown out unless it's something the player "opts" into.

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It was an odd notion, basically a Paladin of evil alignment - total opposite but achieving similar concepts. Which was even more silly when 3.5 made the Blackguard a prestige class. Should've just made it a fully fledged 1-20 Class that was the Anti-Paladin reskinned. At least we got the Paladin of Tyranny that does pretty much the same thing.

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, late in 2e they had paladins but they introduced a "non-paladin" religious fighter called a crusader. Kossuth had crusaders.

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I'll have to check those out. While I'm not going to play 2E anytime soon, the concepts would still be interesting to read. Similarly, 3.5 had the Crusader class (Tome of Battle) that was pretty awesome. What I feel the base Paladin should have been to start with. I like that the inspiration of their Maneuvers are sporadic and granted randomly - has a very cool feel to the class.

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The knightly code, as recognized in the Realms, is as follows, rated from most generally important to those of lesser (but still critical) import.

• Defend any responsibility given, even unto death;


• A knight's word is his law;


• Show courage in all things;


• Show honor to those above one's station;


• Earn respect from those below one's station;


• Leadership is the responsibility of the high-born and the fit;


• Battle is the test of worth (this is rated higher by those knights who strongly venerate Tempus);


• Be courteous to all women (or all men, depending on the sex of the former cavalier);


• Bring death to those who raise their weapons against a knight or those entrusted into the knight's protection;


• Choose death before dishonor.

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The knightly virtues in the Realms are:

Honor
Bravery
Glory
Good faith
Unselfishness
Courtesy
Pride in self and others

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There was a knightly code presented in the old FRA... From pages 2 and 3 of that resource, in the section under "Cavaliers":

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The knightly code, as recognized in the Realms, is as follows, rated from most generally important to those of lesser (but still critical) import.

• Defend any responsibility given, even unto death
• A knight's word is his law
• Show courage in all things
• Show honor to those above one's station
• Earn respect from those below one's station
• Leadership is the responsibility of the high-born and the fit
• Battle is the test of worth (this is rated higher by those knights who strongly venerate Tempus)
• Be courteous to all women (or all men, depending on the sex of the former cavalier)
• Bring death to those who raise their weapons against a knight or those entrusted into the knight's protection
• Choose death before dishonor

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...in 5e, each Paladin Oath has a list of Tenets they must abide by, and I don't thiiiink any demand celibacy? My favorite is that the Oath of the Crown (a Paladin in service to a state or ruler) has no Tenet for honesty ;p

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Senior Scribe keftiu,

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...in 5e, each Paladin Oath has a list of Tenets they must abide by, and I don't thiiiink any demand celibacy? My favorite is that the Oath of the Crown (a Paladin in service to a state or ruler) has no Tenet for honesty ;p

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So in 5e, all paladins must take that Oath?

Best regards,

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They take "an" Oath.

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

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There was a knightly code presented in the old FRA... From pages 2 and 3 of that resource, in the section under "Cavaliers":

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Ahh, that is from the golden oldies for sure! I remember the good ole days with that material! :)

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The knightly code, as recognized in the Realms, is as follows, rated from most generally important to those of lesser (but still critical) import.

• Defend any responsibility given, even unto death
• A knight's word is his law
• Show courage in all things
• Show honor to those above one's station
• Earn respect from those below one's station
• Leadership is the responsibility of the high-born and the fit
• Battle is the test of worth (this is rated higher by those knights who strongly venerate Tempus)
• Be courteous to all women (or all men, depending on the sex of the former cavalier)
• Bring death to those who raise their weapons against a knight or those entrusted into the knight's protection
• Choose death before dishonor

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I love this kind of stuff. I am going to dig into it a bit here since it is always interesting.

Now, I would love to get your opinion Master Rupert (as well as anyone else that wants to chip in):

1) "Defend any responsibility given, even unto death." Now, predicated upon the knightly virtues, I don't see anything there that is up for much debate, ethically.

2) "A knight's word is his law." Now, before I can go to far into this, Master Rupert, which one of the following do you feel is more accurate to that statement in interpreting it:

a) A knight's word [word = a promise, or statement of guarantee] is his law, or in other words, "A knight's word is his promise to keep", or...
b) A knight's word [word = a unit of language, a.k.a. a unit of expression in a sentence], "A knight's word is his command as law".

3) "Show courage in all things." Presupposed on those virtues, no argument there.

4) "Show honor to those above one's station." Based on the virtues, is it anyone of any station above yours? What system defines the station such that you would show honor to that person?

5) "Earn respect from those below one's station." Predicated on the virtues, nothing to dig into there.

6) "Leadership is the responsibility of the high-born and the fit." So, as long as a person is high-born and in physically fit (or mentally fit, or both), then they are good to go? If it is about mental fitness, how is that adjudicated in the Realms?

7) "Battle is the test of worth." In modern day Great Britain, people like Sir Patrick Stewart can become Knight's as thespians. Do you feel that Sune would be right to have knight's who are thespians, or should knighthood only be reserved for those willing to be violent? Can a person who venerates Eldath, become a Knight of Eldath?

8) "Be courteous to all women (or all men, depending on the sex of the former cavilier)." Why is this a knightly code?

9) "Bring death to those who raise their weapons against a knight or those entrusted to a knight's protection." If you could be a knight of Eldath, would you be compelled to kill that person who raised a weapon against you? Does it mean any form of attack results in death, or just deadly intention?

10) "Choose death before dishonor." Based on the virtues, I can see that.

Great post Master Rupert!

Best regards,

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