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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 13:33:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Spelljamming is featured in the 4e era novel "Corsair".
There could have been a period of malfunctions, but at some point before the Weave was fully restored, spelljamming was possible.
I wrote a history for my Realmspace project on DMsGuild to help fill in the gaps.
Three elven swords (the Crownblade, Warblade, and Artblade of Cormanthyr) brought to Evermeet in 1465 DR (The Year of the Elven Swords Returned) are discovered to be prototype helms in addition to their other properties, and become the foundation for a new design of helms adapted to the environment of Realmspace. The knowledge is shared with allies and spreads (albeit slowly), enabling the resumption of spelljamming activities.
Due to a long period of spelljamming cut off in Realmspace, many derelict ships, stations, and whatnot are now dungeons of wildspace, and focus is now on rebuilding and reclaiming for the spelljamming peoples of Realmspace.
Hey, since I don't have that particular novel, can you give a somewhat decent summary of what occurred with that? I think I recall someone saying that the moon was visited in one of those novels, but for some reason I had thought it had been with portal travel. Any details (type of ship, where they went, who they interacted with, why they were there, etc...) I'd appreciate if you have a few minutes. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 23:06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Spelljamming is featured in the 4e era novel "Corsair".
There could have been a period of malfunctions, but at some point before the Weave was fully restored, spelljamming was possible.
I wrote a history for my Realmspace project on DMsGuild to help fill in the gaps.
Three elven swords (the Crownblade, Warblade, and Artblade of Cormanthyr) brought to Evermeet in 1465 DR (The Year of the Elven Swords Returned) are discovered to be prototype helms in addition to their other properties, and become the foundation for a new design of helms adapted to the environment of Realmspace. The knowledge is shared with allies and spreads (albeit slowly), enabling the resumption of spelljamming activities.
Due to a long period of spelljamming cut off in Realmspace, many derelict ships, stations, and whatnot are now dungeons of wildspace, and focus is now on rebuilding and reclaiming for the spelljamming peoples of Realmspace.
Hey, since I don't have that particular novel, can you give a somewhat decent summary of what occurred with that? I think I recall someone saying that the moon was visited in one of those novels, but for some reason I had thought it had been with portal travel. Any details (type of ship, where they went, who they interacted with, why they were there, etc...) I'd appreciate if you have a few minutes.
Well hopefully without spoiling too much, basically a ship is found, and it happens to be one of several with helms being used to conduct shady business on one of Selune's Tears. So yes, spelljamming is used to go back and forth rather than portals or teleporting. They were just regular sailing ships for the most part and the helms are handheld objects that are inserted into slots and activated with a bit of magical energy interaction by touch.
Neogi space merchants and pirates of the Moonsea are involved. The presence of the Neogi suggested that at the very least, the neogi were spelljamming in Realmspace before they got in contact with human pirates.
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 00:11:42
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Something that has been around a lot longer than Spelljamming and which doesn't lead to anywhere near as many "this would disrupt the economy!" posts is teleportation and permanency.
There's even a canonical example (Aurora's Emporium), that canonically doesn't break the economy, and without any detailed explanation. So why do we need a specific explanation for Spelljamming?
Just say it doesn't, cite nebulous dangers, and if players try it, get creative.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 00:32:44
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
I'm sure "locked" crystal spheres are cannon, as they are mentioned a few times. Just like there are dead flow areas.
There's a Netherese spell (10th or 11th level) that can lock (and reversed unlocks) a sphere, but no canonical examples of it being used. The Athas mention is a case of "it is either inaccessible or distant, DM's choice" without a firm stance any way. The closest example of a "locked" sphere is Clusterspace, but that is more of a Hotel California sphere, where any ship can just pass through the shell as if it were not there to get in, but no normal means can get one out. There are no natural portals and none of the spells to create portals work. There may be some "what-if" discussion about it designed to spur DM creativity though. Locked crystal spheres are, to an extent, "pointless" from an adventuring point of view, because they don't present a problem or a threat or an obstacle for adventurers to deal with, it's just a big thing that's there.
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
But really, why not just say Spelljammers have been there all along?
This, exactly. Spelljammers who frequent a given sphere generally know if the groundlings are aware of spelljamming or not, and will take precautions in cases where they don't. In the case of Faerun, cargo vessels will generally dock in the Tears of Selune and sell their cargo to shipping concerns that use groundling-style vessels which will land out of sight of land and then sail into ports like Waterdeep. Think of it like how most overseas goods that come into the US go first to places like New York or Los Angeles, rather than being shipped directly to Kansas City. Individual ships captured or used by wizards, adventurers, etc. would seem just like fancy skyships or something.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 02:20:29
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Why Spelljamming is a problem in the Realms:
1.Lots of flying monsters. Dragons are the obvious ones, but there are plenty of others. The skies are not that friendly. And any flying cargo ship is an easy target.
2.Plenty of flying intelligent folk too. Cloud and storm giants, Gargoyles, Avariel, Urds, Raptorans, plus lots of 'half' races. Sky bandits is very much a thing.
3.Anti magic zones and wild amgic zones. Toril is full of these. And plenty are mobile, like clouds. Even just a couple floating around are a big hazard to a flying ship....
4.Sabotage. If your one of the people that does not have a spelljammer.....well, it's super easy to just attack and destroy the people that have them. Much more easy them getting your own spelljaming fleet.
5.Magical Malfunction. Before 3E, magic was strange, unknown and dangerous: anything could happen. Having a lot of powerful magic in one small place often created all sorts of magical mayhem.....including malfunctions. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 16:59:50
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
I'm sure "locked" crystal spheres are cannon, as they are mentioned a few times. Just like there are dead flow areas.
There's a Netherese spell (10th or 11th level) that can lock (and reversed unlocks) a sphere, but no canonical examples of it being used. The Athas mention is a case of "it is either inaccessible or distant, DM's choice" without a firm stance any way. The closest example of a "locked" sphere is Clusterspace, but that is more of a Hotel California sphere, where any ship can just pass through the shell as if it were not there to get in, but no normal means can get one out. There are no natural portals and none of the spells to create portals work. There may be some "what-if" discussion about it designed to spur DM creativity though. Locked crystal spheres are, to an extent, "pointless" from an adventuring point of view, because they don't present a problem or a threat or an obstacle for adventurers to deal with, it's just a big thing that's there.
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
But really, why not just say Spelljammers have been there all along?
This, exactly. Spelljammers who frequent a given sphere generally know if the groundlings are aware of spelljamming or not, and will take precautions in cases where they don't. In the case of Faerun, cargo vessels will generally dock in the Tears of Selune and sell their cargo to shipping concerns that use groundling-style vessels which will land out of sight of land and then sail into ports like Waterdeep. Think of it like how most overseas goods that come into the US go first to places like New York or Los Angeles, rather than being shipped directly to Kansas City. Individual ships captured or used by wizards, adventurers, etc. would seem just like fancy skyships or something.
Jeff
Oh wow, I didn't even realize that. Yep, its in the Netheril boxed set. The name sounds like the opposite, but it actually locks a sphere. So, if it was developed, I'd think it probably got used (though not necessarily in realmspace mind you). I dont recall Proctiv, what do we know of him? Might it be interesting if they actually travelled to and locked Abeir (just the first idea that popped in my head)?
Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere
Arcanist Spells
(Alteration)
Level: 11 Field: Variation
Range: Touch Components: V, M
Duration: Permanent Casting Time: 1 turn
Area of Effect: One sphere Saving Throw: None
This spell allowed the caster to permanently close a crystal sphere to all traffic (if the reverse of the spell was used), though teleport spells would function. Casting the spell in its normal form superseded any previous seal cast on it, and traffic through the sphere was once again possible. (Any sphere sealed by this spell before the fall of Netheril was closed and cannot be entered except through the use of teleport spells).
The sealing of a sphere prevented spelljamming vessels from entering its space. Only through planar travel, teleportation magic, or other mystical means could one gain entry to a crystal sphere sealed by this spell. The material component for this spell was a 100-ton spelljamming vessel that contained a major helm, which was consumed at the utterance of the spell.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 18:15:33
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I know that that is a canon spell, and all, but I think it's just too damn powerful. I'd not let any one deity have the option of sealing a sphere, unless they were a deity of travel -- and even that's iffy. An entire crystal sphere means a big ball that is twice the diameter of the solar system -- so in the case of Realmspace, this means the spell would affect an area of 5,147,200,000,000 square miles. Five trillion square miles. That's orders of magnitude past lopping off the top of a mountain and making it float.
And it's permanent, on top of that? Nope, not happening, not with just a single mortal caster. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Sep 2020 18:16:41 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 19:03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I know that that is a canon spell, and all, but I think it's just too damn powerful. I'd not let any one deity have the option of sealing a sphere, unless they were a deity of travel -- and even that's iffy. An entire crystal sphere means a big ball that is twice the diameter of the solar system -- so in the case of Realmspace, this means the spell would affect an area of 5,147,200,000,000 square miles. Five trillion square miles. That's orders of magnitude past lopping off the top of a mountain and making it float.
And it's permanent, on top of that? Nope, not happening, not with just a single mortal caster.
Yeah, but in essence, all its doing is making a single type of spell (create portal, and I think that's the only one?) not work on a single object (the sphere itself, not anything inside it... which is a targetable object). Its also not stopping any other type of travel, and if someone wants to get in they just need to counter the spell.
Just to note it, there's more on proctiv as I search his name. He's the guy that came up with the move mountain spell and a lot of other earth based magics. This spell was developed in 1808 NY or -2052 DR. Not sure if any of that will have any importance or play any factors in theories, just throwing it out as food for thought. Just to note, this is way after the Imaskari Godswall, and even a few centuries after the Mulan gods came in via spelljamming (which was in -2488 DR). Proctiv's move mountain was in 1746 NY according to this same list, but Ioulaum is noted as creating the first enclave in 866 NY with the same spell, so that's a time conflict. Also appears to be a POSSIBLE time conflict (not definitive) of sorts with the crystal sphere one too as they weren't spelljamming until several centuries later. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Sep 2020 19:20:15 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 20:20:33
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A better question is not "how" but "why".
Why would a deity (or overdeity) choose to lock their sphere in the first place?
What is there to gain by isolating your world(s) from the rest of the spelljammer-thriving cosmos?
It seems like an excessively heavyhanded way to enforce a local ban on something like, say, smokepowder or intruders. There are much simpler ways for a deity (or its divine allies, its Chosens, its churches, its fanatics, and all their agents) to oppose such not-very-world-shattering threats and violations.
It also seems like it would draw a lot of energy to install and to sustain such a powerful magic. Not something a deity would invest lightly, even if it had enough power to accomplish such a thing.
And I don't think any Realms deities have "protect the world and the heavens from otherworldly visitors/invaders" anywhere in their portfolio. If such a portfolio even exists. If they do then they've been doing a pretty lousy job of it so far.
Faerunian deities are a petulant, squabbling group who can't (or won't) even manage to seal off a few annoying portals to the lower planes. Not individually. Not collectively.
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[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 20:50:41
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I know that that is a canon spell, and all, but I think it's just too damn powerful. I'd not let any one deity have the option of sealing a sphere, unless they were a deity of travel -- and even that's iffy. An entire crystal sphere means a big ball that is twice the diameter of the solar system -- so in the case of Realmspace, this means the spell would affect an area of 5,147,200,000,000 square miles. Five trillion square miles. That's orders of magnitude past lopping off the top of a mountain and making it float.
And it's permanent, on top of that? Nope, not happening, not with just a single mortal caster.
Yeah, but in essence, all its doing is making a single type of spell (create portal, and I think that's the only one?) not work on a single object (the sphere itself, not anything inside it... which is a targetable object). Its also not stopping any other type of travel, and if someone wants to get in they just need to counter the spell.
It would block naturally existing portals, and the spells and items that exist solely to create portals in sphere -- every single one of them, forever, over an unimaginably huge area. That's beyond over-powered.
Look at it this way: what if there was a spell that could allow any powerful enough mage to block all fireball spells, anywhere on Toril? The mage decides no one is going to use fireball ever again, and that's it -- no fireballs from memorized spells, no fireballs from scrolls, no fireballs from magic items, no fireballs from spell-like effects, none. Not anywhere on the surface, in the Underdark, or in the skies above. No fireballs, anywhere, ever again, from anyone -- unless someone else came along and specifically cast the same spell, to undo that effect.
That's similar to what Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere is doing -- except Proctiv's spell would also block all naturally existing fires, and the area of effect is scaled up by a few orders of magnitude. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Sep 2020 20:51:16 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 15:39:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Proctiv's Crystal Sphere spells may not be as powerful as they might seem at first glance.
The basis of the spells might rely on accessing some design already built into the sphere wall.
It may be more like a key rather than an instant fortress.
That could place it within a reasonable range of what one might expect from 11th level single caster spells.
Nothing that I'm familiar with suggests that crystal sphere have some mechanism for being entirely sealed off, forever. The existence of naturally occurring portals and the fact that some creatures are innately able to create portals would argue against that. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 15:40:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I know that that is a canon spell, and all, but I think it's just too damn powerful. I'd not let any one deity have the option of sealing a sphere, unless they were a deity of travel -- and even that's iffy. An entire crystal sphere means a big ball that is twice the diameter of the solar system -- so in the case of Realmspace, this means the spell would affect an area of 5,147,200,000,000 square miles. Five trillion square miles. That's orders of magnitude past lopping off the top of a mountain and making it float.
And it's permanent, on top of that? Nope, not happening, not with just a single mortal caster.
Yeah, but in essence, all its doing is making a single type of spell (create portal, and I think that's the only one?) not work on a single object (the sphere itself, not anything inside it... which is a targetable object). Its also not stopping any other type of travel, and if someone wants to get in they just need to counter the spell.
It would block naturally existing portals, and the spells and items that exist solely to create portals in sphere -- every single one of them, forever, over an unimaginably huge area. That's beyond over-powered.
Look at it this way: what if there was a spell that could allow any powerful enough mage to block all fireball spells, anywhere on Toril? The mage decides no one is going to use fireball ever again, and that's it -- no fireballs from memorized spells, no fireballs from scrolls, no fireballs from magic items, no fireballs from spell-like effects, none. Not anywhere on the surface, in the Underdark, or in the skies above. No fireballs, anywhere, ever again, from anyone -- unless someone else came along and specifically cast the same spell, to undo that effect.
That's similar to what Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere is doing -- except Proctiv's spell would also block all naturally existing fires, and the area of effect is scaled up by a few orders of magnitude.
All its blocking is travel from the phologiston into the crystal sphere. Travel via any other means still works, and it can be unlocked.
On Ayrik's response, this isn't a deity spell, its a wizard one, so it would be a better question to ask "why would some wizard want to stop spelljammers coming into his wildspace". That I can see happening, for instance, if say they knew that illithids or scro or neogi were coming in via this method. Maybe they view the benefits of closing the sphere outweigh any personal benefits they gain from traversing it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 15:55:49
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
All its blocking is travel from the phologiston into the crystal sphere. Travel via any other means still works, and it can be unlocked.
It can only be unlocked with the same spell.
My issue with this spell is twofold: it's permanent, and it affects the entirely of the largest things in existence in D&D. In the case of Realmspace, we're talking about a permanent spell that affects an area of 5,000,000,000,000 square miles, with no saving throw.
If it was something like an area of a thousand miles, I'd not care. But an entire sphere, forever? No, that's just too over-powered.
This spell would stop the Spelljammer itself, and that's like a living artifact. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 16:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
All its blocking is travel from the phologiston into the crystal sphere. Travel via any other means still works, and it can be unlocked.
It can only be unlocked with the same spell.
My issue with this spell is twofold: it's permanent, and it affects the entirely of the largest things in existence in D&D. In the case of Realmspace, we're talking about a permanent spell that affects an area of 5,000,000,000,000 square miles, with no saving throw.
If it was something like an area of a thousand miles, I'd not care. But an entire sphere, forever? No, that's just too over-powered.
This spell would stop the Spelljammer itself, and that's like a living artifact.
Just for devil's advocate sake though, mortals also cast a spell that prevented gods traversing to the plane by other methods, forcing them to create manifestations and physically travel to the sphere with the Imaskari Godswall. Between the two concepts, I'd find that one more powerful.
That being said, the only reason I was talking about locking the sphere was to try and limit the arcane coming in to sell helms, and we can come up with other ways to do that (though people may come up with some other reasons that I'm not thinking of). For instance, if the sphere itself were somehow bad for the health of arcane (particularly if it leaks back through their telepathic link), that can accomplish the same goal. But, it is good to know that there's the option out there (even if said option is no longer possible to be cast now in the same way since 11th level spells no longer can be cast). Now it would require some form of epic magic (which isn't even detailed for 5e yet), and betting it would require some kind of sacrifice like a mythal.... hmmmm, which opens up a weird thought, but a "mythal ghost" tied to a crystal sphere... think there could be a fun story line with that somehow.
That being said, something else just occurred to me, in that Rime of the Frostmaiden adventure has that time reset option to just 4 years before Karsus' Folly. So, someone in theory could go back in time to create this, which is normally not a period people can travel back to. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 17:06:47
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
All its blocking is travel from the phologiston into the crystal sphere. Travel via any other means still works, and it can be unlocked.
It can only be unlocked with the same spell.
My issue with this spell is twofold: it's permanent, and it affects the entirely of the largest things in existence in D&D. In the case of Realmspace, we're talking about a permanent spell that affects an area of 5,000,000,000,000 square miles, with no saving throw.
If it was something like an area of a thousand miles, I'd not care. But an entire sphere, forever? No, that's just too over-powered.
This spell would stop the Spelljammer itself, and that's like a living artifact.
Just for devil's advocate sake though, mortals also cast a spell that prevented gods traversing to the plane by other methods, forcing them to create manifestations and physically travel to the sphere with the Imaskari Godswall. Between the two concepts, I'd find that one more powerful.
The Imaskari Godswall involved multiple casters, though -- it wasn't just one person doing it. And we don't know how that Godswall worked -- as I've stated before, I think it was blocking prayers from getting out, so that the gods would not have any power in the sphere and would thus be unable to act.
Also, the Imaskari Godswall only blocked a specific set of deities -- not all of them.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That being said, the only reason I was talking about locking the sphere was to try and limit the arcane coming in to sell helms, and we can come up with other ways to do that (though people may come up with some other reasons that I'm not thinking of). For instance, if the sphere itself were somehow bad for the health of arcane (particularly if it leaks back through their telepathic link), that can accomplish the same goal. But, it is good to know that there's the option out there (even if said option is no longer possible to be cast now in the same way since 11th level spells no longer can be cast). Now it would require some form of epic magic (which isn't even detailed for 5e yet), and betting it would require some kind of sacrifice like a mythal.... hmmmm, which opens up a weird thought, but a "mythal ghost" tied to a crystal sphere... think there could be a fun story line with that somehow.
I think the Arcane, if blocked from entering the sphere via portals, would use other magics to get in -- and then sell similar things as far and wide as possible. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 18:20:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
All its blocking is travel from the phologiston into the crystal sphere. Travel via any other means still works, and it can be unlocked.
It can only be unlocked with the same spell.
My issue with this spell is twofold: it's permanent, and it affects the entirely of the largest things in existence in D&D. In the case of Realmspace, we're talking about a permanent spell that affects an area of 5,000,000,000,000 square miles, with no saving throw.
If it was something like an area of a thousand miles, I'd not care. But an entire sphere, forever? No, that's just too over-powered.
This spell would stop the Spelljammer itself, and that's like a living artifact.
Just for devil's advocate sake though, mortals also cast a spell that prevented gods traversing to the plane by other methods, forcing them to create manifestations and physically travel to the sphere with the Imaskari Godswall. Between the two concepts, I'd find that one more powerful.
The Imaskari Godswall involved multiple casters, though -- it wasn't just one person doing it. And we don't know how that Godswall worked -- as I've stated before, I think it was blocking prayers from getting out, so that the gods would not have any power in the sphere and would thus be unable to act.
Also, the Imaskari Godswall only blocked a specific set of deities -- not all of them.
None of that is definitive. We don't know how many people it took to enact the godswall. We don't know that it blocked only specific deities, as there were a lot of deities that apparently came to the place in corporeal form in the last few thousand years from outside. You're also comparing a magic system that was notedly overpowered.
That being said, none of it really matters. Whether its a ritual requiring a single 45th level caster or a boatload of lesser casters, plus a dragon, plus sacrificing a life, plus destroying several magic items, etc... the point is that there is a possible way to block a sphere if we wanted to. The debate now is just on whether we want to, and it looks like we have other methods to accomplish the end goal. Whether the end goal resolves issues to is in debate, though I think if we present no safe way for arcane to physically enter realsmpace that might at least slow the influx. Also, if someone else takes it to be a new market and wants to essentially become the arcane there, the arcane MIGHT just arrange for said merchants to come to a bad end (because they seem to be THAT controlling). In the end, we all see realmspace as important, but in the cosmic view, its just another crystal sphere. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 18:31:23
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If the spell is written as described here then I have to agree it's ridiculously overpowered. It can lock the entire crystal sphere ... it can even block passage from small gods ... yet good old Proctiv (and his peers) didn't seem to have any way to block out a little phaerimm invasion.
Besides the point anyhow since nobody can cast 11th level magics aside from Mystra herself (and/or her boss). Not sure even she can do it because of conflict of interest vs her portfolio ... she's supposed to sustain, nurture, and encourage magic, not seal it away. If you accept 4E's Spellplague as being valid then you also accept Mystra's power must reach every world and place the Spellplague affected.
I note that Netherese magics always used some constructed artifact as a power source. Karsus needed two mythallars to keep his oversized enclave aloft ... how many of these engines would you need to change the surface of a crystal sphere?
While elven magics always used some living force or entity as a power source. High Mages would have to sacrifice one of their number to form a living mythal ... how many sacrifices would they need to construct a mythal which encompasses the whole surface of a crystal sphere?
Faerun's Weave has been strained and broken many times - every time a new edition installs a new Mystra - some dead-magic and wild-magic zones created as early as the Avatar Crisis still persist in 4E Realmslore, let alone the entire Anauroch life-drain leftover from the retro-1E fall of Netheril. I doubt the Weave is capable of being stretched across the entire crystal sphere. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 19:22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If the spell is written as described here then I have to agree it's ridiculously overpowered. It can lock the entire crystal sphere ... it can even block passage from small gods ... yet good old Proctiv (and his peers) didn't seem to have any way to block out a little phaerimm invasion.
Besides the point anyhow since nobody can cast 11th level magics aside from Mystra herself (and/or her boss). Not sure even she can do it because of conflict of interest vs her portfolio ... she's supposed to sustain, nurture, and encourage magic, not seal it away. If you accept 4E's Spellplague as being valid then you also accept Mystra's power must reach every world and place the Spellplague affected.
I note that Netherese magics always used some constructed artifact as a power source. Karsus needed two mythallars to keep his oversized enclave aloft ... how many of these engines would you need to change the surface of a crystal sphere?
While elven magics always used some living force or entity as a power source. High Mages would have to sacrifice one of their number to form a living mythal ... how many sacrifices would they need to construct a mythal which encompasses the whole surface of a crystal sphere?
Faerun's Weave has been strained and broken many times - every time a new edition installs a new Mystra - some dead-magic and wild-magic zones created as early as the Avatar Crisis still persist in 4E Realmslore, let alone the entire Anauroch life-drain leftover from the retro-1E fall of Netheril. I doubt the Weave is capable of being stretched across the entire crystal sphere.
IF we wanted to use this as a plot device, I'd probably do something wherein the effect had been used to isolate Abeir somehow in the past (such that possibly some of the Netherese knew something of this other world) and that the "collision" between the two transferred the effect or extended the effect or something similar. We do know that this crystal sphere is somehow special because its the only one whose interior has special runes on its interior, almost like it does hve some kind of spell effect on it. In the end, its a canon effect, just like the Imaskari Godswall, and I only mention how I'd implement it because a lot of times describing how to use a mechanic can spur ideas. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2020 : 00:31:34
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I suppose it's not necessary to shield the entire sphere. A small region (about the size created by a spelljammer's portal spells) would suffice if it could be interposed at the correct location when needed.
Although it could then be overwhelmed by multiple simultaneous incoming vectors. Spelljammers are likely to show up individually, perhaps days or weeks apart, perhaps a few per hour at most. But a swarm of them arriving at once (some kind of spacefaring fleet, convoy, or caravan) or a coordinated intrusion attempt (planned incursion/invasion) could overwhelm localized response capabilities.
A simpler agency might be a guard dog. To discourage trespassers, to remove trespassers (one way or another), or to simply raise an alarm.
Or instead of a guard dog patrolling the property from within ... a wolf preying on those who approach the property from without. A predatory presence not necessarily welcomed by the property's owner. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Sep 2020 00:36:00 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2020 : 01:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I suppose it's not necessary to shield the entire sphere. A small region (about the size created by a spelljammer's portal spells) would suffice if it could be interposed at the correct location when needed.
Although it could then be overwhelmed by multiple simultaneous incoming vectors. Spelljammers are likely to show up individually, perhaps days or weeks apart, perhaps a few per hour at most. But a swarm of them arriving at once (some kind of spacefaring fleet, convoy, or caravan) or a coordinated intrusion attempt (planned incursion/invasion) could overwhelm localized response capabilities.
A simpler agency might be a guard dog. To discourage trespassers, to remove trespassers (one way or another), or to simply raise an alarm.
Or instead of a guard dog patrolling the property from within ... a wolf preying on those who approach the property from without. A predatory presence not necessarily welcomed by the property's owner.
That's an interesting idea, because people might not realize it if its a "contingent" type effect that "recharges" over time. I do like the idea of a "guard dog" as well, though a guard dog doesn't need to be an attacking creature. In fact, a contingent type affect targeting arcane would work.. but then again I don't want to have it be something where anyone is ACTIVELY working to keep the arcane out. Having it be a happenstance that affects them because of their unique psychic nature probably works best. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2020 : 06:46:58
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Something that has been around a lot longer than Spelljamming and which doesn't lead to anywhere near as many "this would disrupt the economy!" posts is teleportation and permanency.
This is because teleportation is sufficiently rare (though I've got a specific rant about Aurora's infrastructure in particular, if you're interested).
The basic problem with mixing Spelljammer and the Realms is entirely one of whether it is reasonable for a party of (say) fifth-level characters to have, keep, and use a spelljamming helm without going to extensive lengths to conceal its existence.
If it is not, then the Realms are fine, but you can't play Spelljammer the way it was designed.
If it is, then you can play Spelljammer as designed, but you break the Realms; anything a fifth-level party can have without major complications, major trading costers (or the Zhentarim) should be able to manage multiple of.
Realmspace either can support the Realms or Spelljammer play-as-written, not both. Since Spelljammer campaigns work best in environments designed for Spelljammer anyway, my preference is to make spelljammers in Realmspace rare. To that end, in a DMs Guild project I'm working on that briefly touches on Spelljammer (and Shou Lung), I establish the following bits:
1) Most people with spelljamming helms (including the Arcane) fled the Realms early in the ten years of Spellplague chaos.
2) Most spelljamming helms that remained in the Realms melted during the latter part of the ten years of Spellplague chaos.
3) The position of Realmspace in the Flow has shifted (most dramatically during the Spellplague and then again with the Sundering), such that the Realms were cut off from established inter-sphere trade routes and are now in a backwater area where spelljammers are rare and the Arcane don't do business.
4) The 2e "create helm" spells are nerfed into the ground. (A 9th-level cleric cannot transform one ordinary chair a day into a helm that will work for nine weeks, like they could in 2e.)
Surviving helms accordingly are as rare as their "legendary" rarity in Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage implies. High level characters control most of 'em, and generally use them personally, rather than trusting other people with them; this limits their use in trade to trips that are worthwhile for a high-level character to fit in among all their other priorities. Ordinary merchants are known to have wistful "What I could do with one!" thoughts about galleons that fly tons of cargo at 10+ MPH over any terrain, but it's similar to imagining what they'd do if they were able to cast 9th-level spells; a daydream, not a business plan.
(I also make series helms "legendary", while lifejammers and furnaces are "very rare", and other types are not known to have survived.) |
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Mrestos Khorvaen
Acolyte
Spain
48 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2020 : 13:40:33
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| I think Spelljamming could be a nice way to intermix the diferent campaign settings. Of course giving a flying vessel to the PCs it's always a risk. |
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Mrestos Khorvaen
Acolyte
Spain
48 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2020 : 13:47:10
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[quote]Originally posted by sleyvas
In another thread, I got sidetracked with some discussion about spelljammer and how to implement... and it occurred to me that I don't want to derail that entirely and maybe its worth its own topic.
What I'd like to consider is HOW we might SUDDENLY implement spelljamming to Toril without breaking the setting. To note here, I'm not adverse to discussing any options, such as making spelljamming ships that have to dock in orbit because they can't enter atmosphere, and then use "wind sailing" type flying vessels similar to Halruaan Skyships within the atmosphere. The big thing I'm seeing though is how might we do it suddenly.
My first thoughts are these and I just want to put them down first
1) Spelljamming helms possibly broke at the outset of the spellplague, and the crystal sphere "locked" not allowing anyone from outside in or out (possible problems: does any 4e lore contradict this?)
You give an amazing amount of info.
My data about Spelljamming is really short. But I think nobody at WOtC has said something about it in about 20 years, so it can be suposed the limitations no longer exist. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2020 : 15:04:23
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Well, good, I had hoped someone who was working on this already might pipe in. I like the idea of helping, and I hope anyone interested in writing rulesets is interested in alternate ideas. So, just to get some ground rules going of what we've been discussing. Some ways to reintroduce spelljamming without breaking the world's infrastructure.
1) Make existing helms rarer. Maybe this is because they were destroyed during the spellplague. Maybe they just quit functioning for several months, the crew on their vessels literally died with the personnel in wildspace transit or on a planet where they didn't have proper supplies to survive an extended length. This may mean that there are lost ships scattered throughout the sphere either in wildspace or stranded on an inhospitable environment.
2) To make it so new helms are "hard to acquire" within realmspace, we need some reason that the Arcane aren't here pushing their sale AND the Arcane are making sure that noone else comes in and performs that same duty on a large scale. Initially, I was of the mindset of locking the sphere entirely, but instead I think we've come up with a batter solution in that "Arcane who come into the crystal sphere have some kind of sudden telepathic assault that feeds back through their unique physiology to all arcane everywhere. As a result, the Arcane have ceded the realmspace market for the next .... century maybe?" Then again, I also like the idea that See just presented that "like a marble" realmspace has flowed into a backwater area of the phlogiston possibly as a result of movement generated by the spellplague. Perhaps both? Maybe the phlogiston surrounding realmspace is a much more dangerous area now as well due to environmental conditions, predators, etc...?
3) Even with helms being rare, we don't want something wherein people are zipping around the world if they manage to get ahold of say a half dozen helms somehow. Thus, perhaps "helms don't work as well as they used to when traversing to wildspace". This might be universal, and as a result, a modest amount of outsider ships have been fitted for astral travel to go between crystal spheres, which is also outside the scope of what the arcane control. One idea I proposed was that within atmosphere spelljammers may have to switch to acting like Halruaan Skyships and thus losing their motive force and relying upon actual sailing via the wind. However, Halruaan skyships are also limited on how high they can go, and spelljammers are not. Another idea was that leaving the atmosphere to wildspace might take a long time depending on the size of the air envelope of the planet. As a stab at this, maybe size C and under can be escaped within a half day (size A possibly less than an hour). Size D takes a full day. Size E takes 2 days to enter or leave (this is Toril's size, so going to wildspace and coming back in is a 4 day bit of travel). Perhaps for each size above E the number of days to leave atmosphere increases by 2 days (such that leaving a size J celestial body... which is 1000 times bigger than Toril btw... would take 12 days just to reach wildspace). Presumably the larger planets are usually like Coliar and aren't solid, so perhaps the gravity pull is typically less to explain away the "faster" travel to reach the atmosphere.
4) Many cultures may have known how to make spelljammers, but they lost the skill in the years that spelljammers didn't work. Some spelljammer ship manufacturing facilities literally died. Mind flayers in 5e are particularly noted as having lost the ability to manufacture new nautiloids per Rime of the Frostmaiden
5) Spells that generate a helm just flat out don't exist any longer or literally only work for minutes or somesuch so that they're only or strict emergencies and usually only within atmosphere. Perhaps some ships are fitted with a backup helm capability that is contingent on the primary helm failing
6) Assigning a helm to a vessel is no easy task and involves some kind of ritual spell that takes a day or more to cast. That would be for a minor helm. For a major helm, this may involve multiple casters and multiple days.
7) There may be some helms that cannot enter atmosphere at all. In these instances, these ships might have to carry an "away ship" that they use to go from wildspace to the surface. In effect, this makes a need for an "atmospheric only Helm" as well, of which we see somewhat of an example in the form of the locust's rudder of propulsion. A rudder of propulsion can only generate lift for a balsa wood/bamboo type ultra-light single person only vessel. Perhaps another type of helm specifically for use in these instances which can effect a ship the size of a small sailing vessel like a keelboat (60 ft x 20 feet per Ghosts of Saltmarsh and able to have a crew of 3 with 4 passengers... though that seems rather big and I'd probably say 30 ft x 15 feet makes much more sense for the passenger limit since longships in the same resource are only ten feet longer). I could also see a vessel the size of a rowboat using a magical rudder if said device generates some kind of "envelope" around the ship to make it more stable, though possibly literally only capable of directly vertical ascents and descents via the equivalent of levitation (making a flying creature very dangerous near it). Perhaps another option is something which gives already flying mounts the ability to ascend to unnatural heights (i.e. able to almost reach wildspace), such that perhaps instead of an away team mounted on a special keelboat you have an away team of say Nimbraii Knights of the Flying Hunt mounted on pegasi.
Some additional ideas that just popped in my head for discussion
A) Helms must be attuned to a spellcaster if they are a standard helm. No more than 5 spellcasters can be attuned to a standard helm at a time, and only a single spellcaster can manage the helm at once. There would be exceptions to this rule with special helms (such as the quad of Thay, a ki helm that uses monks, etc...) that we'd have to develop rules for. Perhaps spellcasters DON'T give up all their spell slots when they run the helm, and we come up with some alternative. "Full" spellcasters that have cantrips might be better pilots for instance, but maybe they must temporarily make one cantrip spell unavailable. Alternative spellcasters that don't get cantrips (say paladins and rangers for instance) might have to give up all spellcasting or spells of below a certain level, etc...
I actually like the idea that terrestrial groups have resumed efforts to create helms on their own, but perhaps they're having issues resetting things back up. As an example of what I mean, let's be specific and then others can express possible changes and why to make those changes.
B) Grand Helms were developed by Thay for their Quads, and these ships require the piloting of several circle bound mages. The ships are extraordinarily fast because they also become partially ethereal or perhaps partially enter the shadowfell (essentially shadow walking) if we wanted to rewrite them a bit. These helms have a lot of problems though outside of wildspace, because they don't function at all in the phlogiston. Perhaps since the spellplague they also cannot enter the atmosphere without losing control. Thus, perhaps this is one of the types of ships that must use an "away ship" to travel to the surface. Given that Thayans did have knowledge of the construction of Halruaan Skyships, perhaps they use a somewhat modified version of these for atmospheric travel. Perhaps they make a much more lightweight/smaller version of them that can ascend higher into the atmosphere.
C) Ki helms and rudders of propulsion were created specifically by the nation of Wa and were supposed to be state secrets, revealing of which was punishable by death. These were used in the creation of tsunamis (ki helm) and locusts (rudders of propulsion). We were never told where these ships were being built though, and since they were a state secret even from its citizens, perhaps this facility was somewhere else. I propose the island of Machukara in the Kara-Tur campaign setting, and I'll post info on that separately in another reply to show why.
D) Radiant Helms are drow constructed helms that run on Faerzress or other materials that give off magical "radiation". As a result, maybe there's only a single drow city that knows how to make them within the crystal sphere and which is actively spelljamming, and where might that city be? Would we want this available specifically to Lolthite or non-Lolthite or both cultures? Perhaps even these drow are actually harvesting faerzress from some comet that their city resides within or somesuch and they aren't tied to any documented Torilian group? I kind of like the idea of a group of Kiaransalee and Malyk worshipping dark elves who might also have like night hags and other dark fey like glouras living with them, such that their culture is more arcane than divine driven. Maybe they have a bunch of warlocks with star pacts as well that might serve a being like Ghaunadar or Moander. As another possible interesting alternative/addition, perhaps some fey'ri or shadar-kai have uncovered the secrets of radiant helms as well and they might ALSO have similar asteroid or planetary colonies?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Sep 2020 15:59:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2020 : 15:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrestos Khorvaen
I think Spelljamming could be a nice way to intermix the diferent campaign settings.
That was one of the design goals. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2020 : 16:13:10
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For Ki Helms and Rudders of Propulsion, if they are still in development, I think Manchukara would make a great place to put a secret factory for them. Its an island filled with giant plants and possible giant animals. It very much could be a place filled with fey. As an alternative to the story below of "hairy men" tending a garden for instance, perhaps what they saw from a distance were giant space hamsters chewing on vines, etc... Then again, perhaps they are korreds or hengeyokai or any of dozens of other types of hairy fey. Noone ever returns from this island according to the existing lore, so perhaps that's because the emperor orders that anyone that lands on the island (which is hard due to shallow reefs as well) must be killed in order to protect the secrets of spelljamming. Perhaps there's giant bamboo stalks here and they're used to create the sections of a Wa Tsunami spelljammer (they would be hollow, sturdy, etc...). Perhaps the special strong but sturdy wood used to make locusts also comes from here. Perhaps they also use things like giant lilac petals for making sails after curing them somehow. Perhaps the facility itself exploded during the spellplague and only recently have they been able to get the place back online and uncover the lost secrets that died with certain wu-jen and/or priests that were on the island. Or perhaps they're still trying to work them out, but they have been able to find and fix a few ships after sending patrols to re-explore the island.
Here's some info from the old Kara-Tur Campaign Setting
Machukara
Machukara is the northernmost island of Wa. Because of its dense jungles, it remains largely unexplored. Machukara is actually a part of the Paikai province, but it usually is thought of as one of the Outer Isles. The government has not yet decided quite what to do with Machukara. Its strategic position would seem to make it ideal for a military base, but the shallow reefs surrounding it make it impossible to dock ships. Clearing away enough of the jungle to establish a colony seems unfeasible. The trees tower hundreds of feet in the air and grow so close together that no sunlight reaches the jungle floor. Vines as thick as a tree trunk and as tough as marble grow in vast tangles. Where there is no jungle, there is treacherous swampland. Savage orange gorillas with blazing red eyes and silver-scaled serpents whose poison can fell an elephant are only a few of the dangerous creatures said to exist there.
As far as the government is concerned, Machukara is unpopulated. Yet, reports from travelers contradict this. A fishing boat sailing off the northeast coast sighted a garden of giant white lilacs growing along an inlet. A single petal, they reported, was larger than the sail of their ship. Venturing closer, they saw a group of small, hairy men tending the garden. The hairy men vanished into the jungle as the ship approached.
On another occasion, a ship blown off course by a hurricane was heading toward the northern coast of Machukara. The strong winds parted the trees and revealed a 100-foot ivory column with a face carved in the top. The face abruptly blew a gust of wind at the approaching ship, filling its sails and sending it back out to sea.
Over the years, expeditions have been sent to explore the interior of Machukara. None have returned. Desperate refugees have also sought asylum on the island. The most famous of these is Tazu-ei, the son of a noble who became disgusted with the dissension in his family and fled to Machukara seeking a life of simplicity and peace. Like all the others who have sought refuge in Machukara, he has never been heard from again. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Sep 2020 16:33:21 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2020 : 17:00:40
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Discussing other cultures that might NOW or IN THE PAST have had spelljamming related to Toril
In the above, we were discussing some helm types that might have had development on Toril, and thus landward cultures might be able to produce some helms for themselves at huge expense and slowly. I gave a good bit on the Wa island of Machukara as an option, but what about other ideas? For instance:
Nimbral is returned. Nimbral was specifically a spelljammer knowledgable place. They didn't necessarily know how to build helms, but they may have had several in dock when the spellplague happened. As a result, they may now have a small fleet of mismatched vessels, along with Halruaan skyships and their Nimbraii Knights of the Flying Hunt.
Halruaa is returned. Halruaa had skyships, but there was also possibly some of these ships that had been fitted with helms.
Lantan is returned. Lantan is full of inventors, what if they got ahold of a dwarven citadel and finally figured out how to make a forge helm (maybe they were helping the dwarves repair it, and maybe these same dwarves are now a part of Lantan society since they've returned). Maybe while on Abeir the Lantanese got ahold of a Xorn stoneship powered by fire elementals and they reverse engineered this bit of technomagic.
In several threads I've mentioned my ideas of Zulkir Mythrell'aa still being alive and having captured a Netherese enclave known as doubloon which was rumored to be able to turn invisible and finding it in orbit because a helm was attached. Perhaps this helm is an Artifurnace using the ship's mythallar to power it (it can be a weak artifurnace... it doesn't need to be the greatest thing in the world... and the enclave may move extremely slow due to the size of the enclave).
The Old Empires are also returning, and possibly returning with them is the volcanic island known as the "ship of the gods" which the Mulhorandi god Geb was associated with. Perhaps we find out that this island also holds an artifact level spelljammer (i.e. another artifurnace) named the Matet that was maybe dependent on having the artifact called The Beacon of Light in place. See Volo's Guide to All Things Magical for information on the artifact and how it helped guide the gods through wildspace. Perhaps even this artifact/spelljammer is how the "godkings" have returned to Mulhorand since the second Sundering (having possibly returned via spelljamming while on Abeir).
I know Shou Lung and Evermeet also had ships (and I think so did Myth Drannor). As I stated before with Shou Lung though, in order to reduce its strength, maybe a lot of its captains basically decided to turn rogue or the ships were lost.
I know also in the Malatra campaign the Nubari had come to this world LONG ago, so perhaps some long lost helms might be found there.
I've also mentioned some ideas about a former spellweaver land base for spelljammers that's hidden in the deserts of Anchorome and covered by illusion and protected by things like crevasses in the earth. Seethyr also has a few points in or near Lopango (specifically Mount Mixhuacan) that has a potential for another similar base with an unknown culture that may inhabit said area.
Is there any other places that might be "returning from Abeir" or somesuch that might fit this bill to provide a small amount of spelljammers such that the world can be a bit more mobile while not "breaking" it that I'm not thinking of? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Sep 2020 17:15:39 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2020 : 00:49:54
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Something that has been around a lot longer than Spelljamming and which doesn't lead to anywhere near as many "this would disrupt the economy!" posts is teleportation and permanency.
This is because teleportation is sufficiently rare (though I've got a specific rant about Aurora's infrastructure in particular, if you're interested).
We know of dozens of wizards in the Forgotten Realms who COULD do what I described, but don't. Yet this is never seen as a problem that still needs to be solved beyond saying "it just doesn't happen," whereas that is not the case with Spelljamming. Spelljamming within the gameworld is supposed to be even rarer than that.
quote:
Originally posted by see
The basic problem with mixing Spelljammer and the Realms is entirely one of whether it is reasonable for a party of (say) fifth-level characters to have, keep, and use a spelljamming helm without going to extensive lengths to conceal its existence.
Except the canon can just not include any examples of that, and let a DM do what they want. If the DM wants the PCs to be under a constant barrage of threats, fine. If they don't want that, that's fine too. This is again a "problem" that doesn't actually need to be solved except by an individual DM if they want to (for which there are plenty of ways to do so).
quote:
Originally posted by see
If it is not, then the Realms are fine, but you can't play Spelljammer the way it was designed.
Spelljammer as designed was intended to take the players into the vastness of space. If the PCs/DM are just using a helm and a ship as a fancy, powerful flying carpet for getting around Faerun, that's up to them. Same thing if the game becomes a cargo hauling simulator. They're not actually playing Spelljammer though, so much as just using stuff from the setting. That's fine, if they want, but it's not what is "intended." Just as transitioning to the planes takes you to Planescape, getting caught in the Mists takes you to Ravenloft, finding a Helm is "supposed" to get you to leave your world behind to see what adventure awaits you beyond. If the players want to return to Faerun and adventure there for the rest of their careers, a DM should contrive a way to eliminate the helm.
quote:
Originally posted by see
If it is, then you can play Spelljammer as designed, but you break the Realms; anything a fifth-level party can have without major complications, major trading costers (or the Zhentarim) should be able to manage multiple of.
Able to manage, sure, but just because a DM makes a helm available to PCs doesn't mean they have to make them available to every single faction out there, especially if the PCs *find* the helm. If the helms are just for sale in Waterdeep and other ports, sure, that's an issue.
quote:
Originally posted by see
Realmspace either can support the Realms or Spelljammer play-as-written, not both. Since Spelljammer campaigns work best in environments designed for Spelljammer anyway, my preference is to make spelljammers in Realmspace rare. To that end, in a DMs Guild project I'm working on that briefly touches on Spelljammer (and Shou Lung), I establish the following bits:
As written, spelljamming IS rare. Again, I put forth that every argument about Spelljamming on a groundling world as high-magic as Faerun applies even more to standard mid-to-high level wizards who are far more common. Except the game says it doesn't happen, so we can apply the same logic to Spelljamming.
quote:
Originally posted by see
(I also make series helms "legendary", while lifejammers and furnaces are "very rare", and other types are not known to have survived.)
Series helms would be useless to PCs and the trading costers, lifejammers should be things PCs wouldn't want to use, and furnaces would be extremely expensive to operate. They don't need to be as rare as standard major and minor helms.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2020 : 02:48:54
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Furnace helms burn magic items as fuel. So it makes sense to find them in (for people to bring them to) magic-rich worlds like the Realms. And their use or abuse is limited by the supply of magic items.
I could understand the reluctance to use such helms, to prefer other methods. At least under earlier-edition rules where manufacturing magic items was such a costly (and complex and uncertain) process in terms of time, money, and effort. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Introducing spelljamming SUDDENLY back to Toril
