| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
maransreth
Learned Scribe
Australia
157 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Sep 2020 : 14:39:34
|
I have been on a binge of dwarven lore, especially dwarves of the North recently. Reading the Lost Kingdoms section from FR 11, Dwarves Deep, has me plotting the borders of the dwarven kingdoms.
Reading the section on Ironstar - "... the three most southerly peaks of the range of mountains north of the River Surbrin, just above its confluence with the Rauvin." made me think of Salvatore's Mithral Hall.
Checking the Forgotten Realms fandom wiki, I found this link - https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Firstpeak. So if the three peaks mentioned in the Ironstar section are First-, Second-, Third- peak, wouldn't Mithral Hall's Fourthpeak also be found in the same range?
Searching Fourthpeak on the wiki found https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Fourthpeak and mention of First through to Fourthpeak. and checking Mithral Hall, https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mithral_Hall, shows that the Ironstars and Battlehammers should have known of each other.
Checking the references on the various wiki pages I noticed entries for Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. While I own this book, complete with map, purchased when the book was first sold, I have never read the book. page 35 of the book contains the following text: "... shield dwarves of Clan Ironstar. The short-lived Ironstar realm was founded in -2919 DR and fell in the Year of the Majestic Mace (207 DR), existing alongside Mithral Hall for roughly eight centuries. Clan Ironstar dwelt beneath Ironstar Mountain and its sister peaks of Northlook and Wyrmtongue (known
today as Firstpeak, Secondpeak, and Thirdpeak, respectively),
whereas Mithral Hall lies in the roots of Fourthpeak."
?!?!?!?! This is all news to me!
Even better, reading the Mithral Hall entry on the wiki, under the History section, it mentions that it is not known when Mithral Hall is founded, it was before 0 DR. Well news for you! DDGttU specifically says - existed alongside Mithral Hall for approx. 800 years. So if Ironstar fell in 217 DR, that would have the founding of Mithral Hall c. - 600 DR.
Edit - while writing this I messaged George Krashos re the Sstar clan and Ironmaster, and George pointed me to FR7 - Hall of Heroes, which on page 12-13 has some information about Northland Dwarves. The two schisms of -900 DR Sstar leaving Delzoun with one third the population of Delzoun, and then Battlehammer leaving 300 years later would make it -600 DR. Note that the -900 DR date is not mentioned in FR7, but comes from George's tale of two Gauntlgyrms, which cannot be found, even by the Wayback machine. But there is the text in http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20188, page 2.
My thoughts
If Ironstar fell in 217 DR, why didnt Mithral Hall? Could be too few dwarves over too much terrain (Ironstar underneath three mountains), compared to Mithral Hall under one mountain. Possibly no tunnel links between Mithral Hall and Ironstar.
Why are both these dwarven mines outside the boundaries of Delzoun? All sources state that Delzoun's western boundaries lie to the east of Silverymoon - Ironstar and Mithral Hall are west of Silverymoon.
EDIT - FR7 has this covered. page 12 - "... new markets and trade routes opened up, many of the individual clans of the dwarven kingdom saw options open before them for greater prosperity.
Several smaller clans drifted away from Citadel Adbar, the primary stronghold in Delzoun, but two major divisions rocked the Northkingdom beyond recovery. Ironically, the dwarves viewed the
expeditions as a good thing, envisioning a dwarven empire stretching all the way to the Sword Coast".
For those who like lineages, we have a more complete lineage of the Battlehammer clan now, not just what is on the Mithral Hall section of the wiki. We know that Bruenor Battlehammer is named for the dwarf who started the Battlehammer clan. We know from FR7 that Bunko Battlehammer led his clan from Citadel Adbar. We know that Bunko was not the first king of Mithral Hall, so something happened to Bunko on the way. Instead Gandalug was crowned first king of Mithral Hall. When Gandalug abdicated the throne, we know that he was captured in battle by Yvonnel Baenre.
Then there is Gary Dallison's lore checking from novels - Bruenor's father telling Bruenor that his people are cursed to create one mighty item after a lifetime of creating items, and once the mighty item has been forged they would lose interest in forging/creating items (this is at the start of the Crystal Shard novel when Bruenor is about to forge Aegis-Fang). Gary takes the view that "his people" references Clan Battlehammer, whereas I am wondering if "his people" references dwarves in general. My thinkig is now leading towards Gary's if Bunko was chasing mithril veins just west of Silverymoon, could Clan Battlehammer be chasing mithril as the major ingredient when forging their mighty item?
Ironstar maces. First referenced in FR11 Why maces? Dwarves usually use axes and hammers. Originally I though the need for ironstar maces could be a reference to skeletal undead (the only monster I can immediately think of where maces are of an advantage)? Then re-reading the ironstar mace section in FR11 it says that ironstar maces were said to shatter armor at a blow.
Why the need to shatter armor? Could the monsters in the area, read orcs, be wearing better armour? Or the duergar from Gracklstugh be causing grief?
So lots of linkages between various tomes for dwarven lore.
Anyone have any thoughts about the Ironstars and Battlehammers being so close, yet not able to help each other in their time of need?
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2020 : 16:35:08
|
| Mithril Hall was damn near impossible to get into... It's also possible that when the orcs attacked Ironstar, they either bypassed Mithril Hall (not knowing it was there) or that it was isolated enough that they didn't get to it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2020 : 00:53:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I think for this one you will just need to wait for an answer to appear. George and Eric are working on the north a lot lately with the Crown of Eaerlann and other projects so the dwarves of Ironstar will possibly be mentioned in one of those.
Officially though I dont think there is an answer and you appear to have exhausted all the lore available.
Dwarves are not always cooperative, especially where they are from different clans or nations, and if there was a feud between battlehammer and Ironstar then they can be pretty stubborn under such circumstances.
I'm hopeful that Eric and George detail a lot of the north's history over the next few years. That doesnt mean they will fill in all the blanks, but it should at least give us a general idea of the picture where we can paint in the little details, I'm hoping to be able to figure out who / what caused the curse that afflicts the battlehammers.
We have delved into Ironstar and why it fell and why there weren't overt links between them and Clan Battlehammer. Btw, the name "Ironstar" is the translation, the realm was called Mirarar and the single clan that founded it had a very interesting history prior to the kingdom's founding that made it very secretive. It's fall has secrets also - after having dug deep into the lore. All will be revealed in "Renewal of the Covenant" ... when that adventure is released itself.
Oh, and I'm not sure there is a "Battlehammer Curse". Bruenor's knowledge of the clan and his forbears is less than perfect ...
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2020 : 01:02:43
|
Oh and Mithral Hall (actually Himral Uldoum) was founded in the Year of Mountain Snows (-641 DR) and fell in the Year of the Tomb (1182 DR).
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
|
|
maransreth
Learned Scribe
Australia
157 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2020 : 09:35:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Awesome, now we can discuss it more.
The thing is how does Mirabar fit in, is it a relation tense on the pronoun (the r changing to a b because the river could be classes as a child of the Ironstar kingdom).
While I could not find Mirab in the FR7 write up, a possibility is in George's Tale of two subterranean cities - "Thousands of dwarves stayed behind, lead by Mirab, blood of Beldas, eking out an existence as they sought to clear out the ancient mineworkings of Gharraghaur known as “the Cut”."
George - you and Eric spend too much time in the native language. However it is good to know the start and end of the original Mithral Hall. I will be adding that to my local dwarven timeline.
Curse - I was thinking today about the Ironstar's knowing about Darksteel, and the Battlehammers forging one great item. I think I vaguely remember another clan knowing a specific thing (?) that was unknown to the other dwarven clans.
What if this is a blessing from Dumathoin? As in Dumathoin of course knows lots of things and he wants to pass it onto the dwarves. But instead of passing on knowledge wholesale, he passes the knowledge onto selected clans and it is up to the clans to decide whether to pass the knowledge on outside of the clan.
Of course this doesn't do anything for Clan Battlehammer as the clan is not passing on knowledge but passing on the magic items that they make.
George, your comment about Ironstar clan secrets then aligns with the comment that Ironstar was great outside of, or after Delzoun.
Your comment about Bruenor and his knowledge of his clan knowledge also correlates with his comment that Gauntlgrym was the"jewel" of Delzoun, when Gauntlgrym was so far west of Delzoun's borders. Unless of course your tale of two cities is viable.
|
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2020 : 23:24:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Awesome, now we can discuss it more.
If Mirarar means Ironstar then I'm guessing Mir means iron and Ar means star. I vaguely remember reading about an Arcrown somewhere although I dont know if its dwarf related.
The thing is how does Mirabar fit in, is it a relation tense on the pronoun (the r changing to a b because the river could be classes as a child of the Ironstar kingdom).
Then there is the curse. While I'm not a big fan of some of the ignoring of lore in those books a curse is a neat plot hook that could be used to add more flavour and detail to the dwarves of the north.
The dwarven word for "iron" is "rar" and I can postulate that the word for "star(s) is "mira" but that hasn't been confirmed by Ed - although he did give us the dwarven name of the kingdom ...
The diaspora of Delzounian dwarves building stuff and travelling beyond the realm's borders set out in FR11 is due to Salvatore's scribblings. Eric and I stay true to the sources, so if that means the Mines of Gauntlgrym were built by the dwarves before they built the upper city of Gauntulgrym (see what I did there ...) then it is what it is. My "Tale of Two Cities" piece was written some time ago. It will likely be tweaked to a degree.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 09 Sep 2020 23:24:56 |
|
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2020 : 02:58:57
|
Master Krashos,
Out of curiosity, do you know if Dwarven verbs are conjugated "backwards" from English? In looking at, http://www.stormnexus.org/Dwarven_Language#Verbs (yes, I know this to not be Realms necessarily) it appears that Dwarven verbs are conjugated as English verbs are. I'd love to know your thoughts on this!
Best regards,
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2020 : 16:02:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Krashos,
Out of curiosity, do you know if Dwarven verbs are conjugated "backwards" from English? In looking at, http://www.stormnexus.org/Dwarven_Language#Verbs (yes, I know this to not be Realms necessarily) it appears that Dwarven verbs are conjugated as English verbs are. I'd love to know your thoughts on this!
Best regards,
Whilst I love studying up (and making up) FR languages, I'm not Professor Tolkien and have no idea re what actual language structure, grammar/syntax rules apply to languages such as dwarven. If I did, I'd merely be guessing. I'll leave that stuff to the experts.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2020 : 16:23:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Krashos,
Out of curiosity, do you know if Dwarven verbs are conjugated "backwards" from English? In looking at, http://www.stormnexus.org/Dwarven_Language#Verbs (yes, I know this to not be Realms necessarily) it appears that Dwarven verbs are conjugated as English verbs are. I'd love to know your thoughts on this!
Best regards,
Whilst I love studying up (and making up) FR languages, I'm not Professor Tolkien and have no idea re what actual language structure, grammar/syntax rules apply to languages such as dwarven. If I did, I'd merely be guessing. I'll leave that stuff to the experts.
-- George Krashos
One of the things I really like about Tolkien was he understood that making a new language was more than just coming up with different words and arbitrarily picking some rules -- he understood that languages grow and are shaped by a lot of influences. It's part of why English is so weird -- it's been shaped by so many different peoples and events, and so many of the words are borrowed/adapted from other languages... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2020 : 17:15:15
|
Master Krashsos,
No sweat. Figured I'd ask in case it was something you ventured into in the past, in a more formal way.
Best regards,
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2020 : 17:20:11
|
Master Rupert,
Indeed, you are correct for sure. He spoke Latin, French, and German from his mother, and at University learned Middle English, Old English, Finnish, Gothic, Greek, Italian, Old Norse, Spanish, Welsh, and Medieval Welsh. He even was passingly familiar with Danish, Dutch, Lombardic, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Swedish and some older derivatives of Germanic and Slavonic languages. It's pretty amazing how intelligent, creative, and productive he was with his linguistic capacities.
Best regards,
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Mithral Hall and the kingdom of Ironstar
