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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 04:43:22
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Saw a Twitter thread that blew my mind, and was curious to get a read on this community’s takes on it: as we all know, a phylactery is the object a lich’s soul is bound into at the end of an unholy, evil ritual. What I was unaware of until this discussion is that a “phylactery” well predates D&D use, as a sacred object containing devotional texts of Judaism. To say that this looks bad is a massive understatement, with the most charitable reading being some profoundly stupid and hurtful appropriation and the worst being an intentional effort to parallel Jewish faith with unholy evil.
Any thoughts? I’m at the point where I’m embarrassed to have not known earlier, and am now kind of hoping the term gets thrown out in future editions.
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 04:55:00
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Phylactery is not a Hebrew word.
It is Ancient Greek and can refer to many charms.
There is no cultural attack here, and no cultural appropriation.
EDIT: I couldn't remember what the actual Hebrew item was called, so had to look it up. It is called a Tefillin...which is a TYPE of Phylactery. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 22 Aug 2020 04:56:36 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 04:58:55
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As in many things, words have multiple meanings. One meaning of the word phylactery is the little box that holds a Torah that some Jews wear.
Another is the "scroll" in old paintings that conveys words... kind of like the speech bubbles in comics.
Last, but not least, you have the meaning that relates to liches: an amulet or charm that is worn for some magical protection or power - an object that holds magic.
Nothing anti-Semitic about it at all. Just one more example of people trying to find a problem with everything and everyone to make them feel better about their own issues.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 05:01:04
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| -As a Jew, do not care and do not find it even mildly anti-semetic, the word has more or less become devoid of any religious meaning and is one of many synonyms that can be used interchangeably to the same effect (Lich's magical amulet, Lich's talisman, Lich's periapt, etc.). I have never heard anybody refer to them contemporaneously as "phylacteries", they are called teffalin, which is also another reason why it's a shrug. If they were called teffalin, I could see why someone might feel iffy about it, but they're not so. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11806 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 13:11:28
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| This is the problem when everyone gets into the apology/guilt frenzy. What was at one point considered nothing turns into a horribly hurtul thing to do. We need to get past this blame psychology in our lives and understand that people can have different beliefs and someone may have a word gaff without it being something that they need to be called out for. Despite what people think, it solves nothing and just creates more hurt and division than it solves. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Aug 2020 13:12:07 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 13:44:23
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I don't like where this is going. 
Learning that something could be offensive is not looking for a problem or getting into a frenzy or anything like that. It's trying to be a decent person who doesn't offend others with hurtful terminology.
And considering that D&D has made missteps in the past, this was a valid concern. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
876 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 14:44:16
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No Wooly, I have to disagree with you here.
The premise of the OP was wrong, the Twitter thread it was based on is wrong to the point that a stupid Google search would have helped solve the issue in about 5 seconds even if the people involved didn't know about the origin of the word in question.
Dalor Darden, The Masked Mage and Lord Karsus covered this angle already.
Being wrong is not a problem in itself, everyone can be wrong any time, but it becomes a problem when from wrong assumptions you dive straight into awful implications as below:
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
To say that this looks bad is a massive understatement, with the most charitable reading being some profoundly stupid and hurtful appropriation and the worst being an intentional effort to parallel Jewish faith with unholy evil.
This should be challenged and stopped every time it happens because it's just hurtful to the community. For the level of "voluntarily misinterpreting a word to assume the worst possible case" this is on par with the uproars of the 1970s involving the words "devil" and "demon" and turning D&D into satanism.
keftiu, you are a very valuable member of these fora and you being vocal about a lot of issues is heartwarming and a source of much reflection. Please don't let your mind be blown that easily. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1525 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 15:05:16
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Does that mean slaying liches is antisemetic? Are liches the chosen undead of Undead God?
Does that mean Vecna and Velsharoon are sort of lich Moses? Is Mellifleur some kind of lich Jehovah?
That's awesome. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 15:24:52
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| There's a difference between honestly wondering if something is offensive and actively looking for something to be offended over. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 17:16:57
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Saw a Twitter thread that blew my mind... Any thoughts? I’m at the point where I’m embarrassed to have not known earlier, and am now kind of hoping the term gets thrown out in future editions.
My first thought was to go look for myself. After checking several sources for the etymology of the word I then checked to see if there were other usages of the word not related to gaming or Judaism. Some other posters nailed it by saying this was not a word originating with or exclusive to its usage with identifying an item from Jewish religious practices. A Stackexchange has more history for D&Ds evolution of the Lich & the Phylactery. I cannot stress enough that doing your own research & fact checking from multiple sources will save you more embarrassment than using a printed word as it is used in the manual of an entertainment (or half a dozen video games clogging up my internet search results (Runescape, WoW, Dragon Age, Diablo III, The Witcher, Battlechasers, Minecraft(?)).
Something else to keep in mind is that many words we use from many languages that describe magical things often have roots going back to religious practices or were terms made by historians/anthropologists to describe religious practices because magic is entwined with supernatural beliefs. Consider the words mana, augury, fetish, charm, magi, and others that are used in the descriptions of games as the authors attempting to explain very alien phenomena. Using already existing words is easier than having to invent words that must then be explained (what's a "horcrux"?) and risk sounding goofy ("relactorfix," really?).
And I spent so much time looking stuff up while making this post that other people have already made my points. Whelp, that was time I wish I had back. Cheers! |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 20:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
The premise of the OP was wrong, the Twitter thread it was based on is wrong to the point that a stupid Google search would have helped solve the issue in about 5 seconds even if the people involved didn't know about the origin of the word in question.
Dalor Darden, The Masked Mage and Lord Karsus covered this angle already.
-I searched and found that twitter post and scrolled down at some of the person's posts. Kind of wish I didn't. Oy. Reads very much like a person that doesn't actually have any experience around the people they are talking for or the item they are talking about trying to virtue signal. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 22:04:13
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| Social media is an authority for social conduct? Sad when people think it's a more real context than face-to-face social interaction. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 22:53:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Social media is an authority for social conduct? Sad when people think it's a more real context than face-to-face social interaction.
Welcome to the hell of the 21st century. This will only become more common in the future as people substitute google and twitter and wikipedia for an education. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 23:50:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Social media is an authority for social conduct? Sad when people think it's a more real context than face-to-face social interaction.
Welcome to the hell of the 21st century. This will only become more common in the future as people substitute google and twitter and wikipedia for an education.
Or even their news provider. Though wikipedia does try to moderate, that clearly depends on the moderators which do change. I did have a Twitter account, however considered useless soon after opening the account. Google catches everything they find, and promote best what they get paid to, not caring about how safe, true etc. It can be used by one that has some caution on what links best to visit.
The world however will always be subject to change, hopeful wise people survive it best. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2020 : 02:05:33
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| So we should also remove any mention of "Angels" because it is offending to Christians and Muslims. We should remove the plane of "Gehenna" and "Genies" because they are related to Islam. We should remove any mention of praying beads from Deity books since they probably offend all big 3 religions. Hell I am offended that some adventures have "Wolves" as monsters that need to be killed as an animal activist so let's just cancel whole D&D to be safe from all this huge offensiveness. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2020 : 02:58:54
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...And once more we prove incapable of having a reasonable discussion without attacking each other and blowing things out of proportion.
All we needed was one person to set the facts straight. One. Instead we got a lot of people piling on and making this another bitchfest about the game changing to be more inclusive -- because apparently, welcoming more people to the table is a bad thing, to some people.
This routine is getting really freaking old, people. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Aug 2020 03:30:09 |
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Phylacteries and Anti-Semitism
Topic Locked
