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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 21:28:36
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I was theorizing about an idea using godflesh in a previous thread, and it got me wondering about something. Offhand, what gods can people recall that were specifically prime bound prior to the Time of Troubles? I can think of Mielikki, Eldath, Torm, Siamorphe, Iyachtu Xvim and I believe Lurue. Then there were all the Mulhorandi gods (except possibly Geb and Hathor who were never given manifestation stats), and Gilgeam and Ramman. Others may have been, but I don't know if explicitly stated as such (like Gwaeron Windstrom who served Mielikki for instance, who was prime bound, Shiallia who was "in the High Forest", etc...). Were there any others?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 21:46:18
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| Well, from what I remember, Eshowdow, Zinzerena (both killed during ToT), Gargauth, Lurue (moved to the House of Nature), Nobanion spent part of his time on the Prime, an entered Toril apparently through it, Yathaghera (on Evermeet, might be a form/aspect of Lurue), Ulutiu formally made domain and even slept on Prime, but (was?) moved to the Astral Plane, and ultimately killed by Auril, who kept his corpse, Othea before her death, and the Earth-Mother. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 22:27:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
True gods should not be able to exist on the material plane (avatars only). What we term "ascending" involves shedding your mortal form (by death or voluntary action) and literally have your soul ascend to a higher plane of existence.
That means only demigods/quasi deities can exist on the material plane. However, the god books freely admit that there are some demigod with the power to rival greater powers so we cannot distinguish a deity purely based upon its categorisation as a demi power in Faith's and avatars or powers and pantheons.
All untheric gods are not true gods as they clearly inhabit material plane bodies.
The mulhorandi gods used to be not true gods but no one has seen them in a millennia (they entered their towers after the battle with narfell summoned monsters) they may have ascended.
Lurue, iyachtu xvim, and bahamut and tiamat and anything Ed listed as quasi deity in the old grey box.
I would even go as far as to say Mystra and Azuth, but I'm sure everyone will disagree with me there, however in Ed's writings the likes of Mystra and Azuth make many personal appearances and behave less like a true god and more like a material bound god.
And yet, it is canon that gods can exist on the Prime, so your statement that they should not be able to is incorrect. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2020 : 00:41:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-What do you mean "prime bound"? As in they spent the Time of Troubles on the Prime Material Plane/Abeir-Toril?
No, there were certain gods whose home realm was NOT the outer planes. Specifically, in the first edition realms campaign setting, Torm, Eldath, and Mielikki were all listed as being on the prime material plane. Presumably they did this because of the Imaskari Godswall, because some of these entities (like Mielikki from the Finnish pantheon) were already multi-spheric. Others were revealed to be as more about the gods came out as well. The Mulhorandi and Untheric gods even had a term for this, as they called it the "manifestation" of the gods, but in their cases they actually directly took a hand in ruling their countries.
What got me thinking about it was Eldath and Ishtar, and the fact that Gilgeam supposedly ran Ishtar out of the country. Ishtar is a goddess of love and rivers in Unther, and she gave up her spot in the pantheon to Isis (presumably because Gilgeam couldn't bully Isis or else the other Mulhorandi gods would gang up on him). What I proposed was "what if Eldath is Ishtar moved into another pantheon?". I had already been thinking that Amaunator could easily be a combination of Amon-Ra with the deity At'ar, and that Jergal could easily be Nergal moving pantheons. We already had stories of Bast moving between patheons, and Mask moving into that pantheon, so having more of them moving would not be surprising.
But then I got to thinking about the fact that Inanna, Girru, Utu, Ki, Nergal, and Ra all died the same year (and possibly Ereshkigal). Presumably they left behind their bodies, because there were tombs for them. From things that have been portrayed, it seems that Loviatar took over Inanna's role. I also noted that Mielikki and Ki could easily have a heresy that they were the same being. I then thought.... what if its not the same being... what if its the same godflesh. So, like Inanna dies. Her body is entombed. Worshippers of Loviatar acquire the body, perform a ritual, and the godly spirit of Loviatar bypasses the Imaskari godswall and inhabits the body of a goddess with similar ethos. Two other Finnish gods show up (Kiputytto and Mielikki), and I think... hmmm, wonder, could they have taken over the godflesh of Ki and Ereshkigal?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2020 : 00:49:44
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
But then I got to thinking about the fact that Inanna, Girru, Utu, Ki, Nergal, and Ra all died the same year (and possibly Ereshkigal). Presumably they left behind their bodies, because there were tombs for them. From things that have been portrayed, it seems that Loviatar took over Inanna's role. I also noted that Mielikki and Ki could easily have a heresy that they were the same being. I then thought.... what if its not the same being... what if its the same godflesh. So, like Inanna dies. Her body is entombed. Worshippers of Loviatar acquire the body, perform a ritual, and the godly spirit of Loviatar bypasses the Imaskari godswall and inhabits the body of a goddess with similar ethos. Two other Finnish gods show up (Kiputytto and Mielikki), and I think... hmmm, wonder, could they have taken over the godflesh of Ki and Ereshkigal?
Wow, trippy lol. So like, Loviatar is hanging out, but she doesn't have a "body", but then takes over the body of a dead goddess, somewhat in the way we would think of a mortal soul acquiring a body? But can't gods make their own bodies (what is stopping Loviatar from forming her own body?) And wouldn't it be more likely that she just subsumed the other goddess? Would it be more likely that the Finnish goddesses are either separate deities entirely, or aspects of another deity? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2020 : 01:25:22
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
But then I got to thinking about the fact that Inanna, Girru, Utu, Ki, Nergal, and Ra all died the same year (and possibly Ereshkigal). Presumably they left behind their bodies, because there were tombs for them. From things that have been portrayed, it seems that Loviatar took over Inanna's role. I also noted that Mielikki and Ki could easily have a heresy that they were the same being. I then thought.... what if its not the same being... what if its the same godflesh. So, like Inanna dies. Her body is entombed. Worshippers of Loviatar acquire the body, perform a ritual, and the godly spirit of Loviatar bypasses the Imaskari godswall and inhabits the body of a goddess with similar ethos. Two other Finnish gods show up (Kiputytto and Mielikki), and I think... hmmm, wonder, could they have taken over the godflesh of Ki and Ereshkigal?
Wow, trippy lol. So like, Loviatar is hanging out, but she doesn't have a "body", but then takes over the body of a dead goddess, somewhat in the way we would think of a mortal soul acquiring a body? But can't gods make their own bodies (what is stopping Loviatar from forming her own body?) And wouldn't it be more likely that she just subsumed the other goddess? Would it be more likely that the Finnish goddesses are either separate deities entirely, or aspects of another deity?
The Imaskari Godswall would have been the reason. It prevented new gods from coming in. Some have presumed that it blocked gods from "a certain pantheon", but what exactly does that mean. Did they build this wall and specifically pick that X,Y,Z god can't enter but all others can, or was it just a generic "nobody but the ones already here". So, the Mulan gods spent presumably a lot of deific energy creating a separate instance/body of themselves that they then bypassed the wall via another method. Then some of those gods died, but the "material" was left behind.
So, is this material something that can ONLY be inhabited by god X or can a similar god ALSO use that godsflesh material? Could this be, for instance, how various other later gods came in, by hijacking a body that was already in the sphere? Is there some magic to "crossing pantheons" that would then allow them to generate a link to the outer planes, and maybe this is also why they would be interested in becoming known to the rest of the world under another name? Granted, some gods might arise IN world as well via methods such as sponsorship via another deity, etc... but this could explain anomalies with gods from other worlds showing up despite the godswall.
This kind of fits in with some plot devices we've seen as well, because what if this "godflesh" is used to produce a child (such as Bhaal's children, Iyachtu Xvim, etc....) or an incarnation (which the mulhorandi were doing with their god-kings). We've seen that "godsflesh" can be used to provide the divine spark for the separation of gods (ala Azuth and Asmodeus using the divine spark of Nanna-Sin's godflesh). We might also find out that some other entity is occupying Gilgeam's godflesh (such as Bane).
I'm not sure how to use it yet, or if its even a very viable plot device, but first I wanted to see just how prevalent it was that there were prime bound gods that might be inhabiting the godflesh of a previous deity and who they might be. For instance, we might find out that Lathander was occupying the body of Utu. We might "find out" that some of the myths we've heard like Tyche splitting, might have been a literal thing. Now that I think about it, Moander might have been Prime bound as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2020 : 01:30:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Well, from what I remember, Eshowdow, Zinzerena (both killed during ToT), Gargauth, Lurue (moved to the House of Nature), Nobanion spent part of his time on the Prime, an entered Toril apparently through it, Yathaghera (on Evermeet, might be a form/aspect of Lurue), Ulutiu formally made domain and even slept on Prime, but (was?) moved to the Astral Plane, and ultimately killed by Auril, who kept his corpse, Othea before her death, and the Earth-Mother.
Hmmm, Nobanion's another good one for this theory. He's a "relatively new" deity, and how many of the Untheric gods have some relationship to lions. Gargauth occupying the body of Druaga was another thing we had considered, and where he came in (Peleverai) is down in the shaar very near Unther. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2020 : 01:55:54
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My new personal theory on the Godswall is that it didn't actually block the deities -- it blocked prayers from reaching them from the Realms. By blocking the prayers, it meant the energy of the people's worship wasn't leaving the Realms. This had the effect of keeping those deities powerless in the Realms; containing the prayer energy meant deities couldn't respond to the prayers and effectively weren't present in the Realms.
Deities have to pass a certain threshold of worship in an area to have power in that area. What the Imaskari did was keep that level of worship down low enough that the deities didn't have the power to act.
There's nothing that really backs up this interpretation, but I think it makes more sense than having a bunch of mortals toss up a wall that an entire pantheon couldn't get through. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2020 : 16:25:46
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It occurs to me that one premise I've been going at here may be actually backwards. I've been assuming that Nergal goes to become Jergal in the Netherese Pantheon by them taking knowledge of him back from visiting the region that will become the Raurin. However, it might work better and explain a few things if we turn this on its head. What if (like Mask), Jergal imported INTO the Untheric pantheon. The typical story of the underworld involves Ereshkigal as being the goddess ruling over the Underworld (known as Irkalla or Erkalla). She acquires "Nergal" as a husband after her prior husband dies, when he disrespects her representative, and she demands the other gods deliver him to apologize. He proceeds to Erkalla, setting demons at the gates, and then sleeps with her. He later escapes back to where he had originally come from, and another god "hides" him. He eventually proceeds back when Ereshkigal demands it, and he marries her becoming her king. She rules the underworld, while he is a god of war and pestilence/plagues.
In the realms, Nergal is noted as dying in the orcgate wars, but oddly Gilgeam refuses to have this one god buried in Unther. This might imply that he was an outsider deity, and thus Gilgeam didn't want him to be given the same honorable burial as Untheric gods. Instead he sends the body to be buried in what is now the area known as Narfell and/or Thesk. It is kind of interesting that he's buried in an area near which the demonic & undead loving empire of Narfell rises soon after. Its also intriguing to me that HE is noted as a god of disease, not Ereshkigal (who would be more like Myrkul), which makes me wonder that IF Kiputytto DID arrive in world by taking over the "godflesh" of a being, perhaps it wasn't Ereshkigal's
maybe it was Nergal's. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Which gods were prime bound prior to the ToT
