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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 00:22:02
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So the second fully fleshed out campaign setting came out for 5E called Mythic Odyssey of Theros. This, along with Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica and the multitude of Plane-Shift articles (Amonkhet, Dominaria, Innistrad, Zendikar, Kaladesh, and the Ixalan Adventure) has shown me, at least, that WotC is fully committed to pushing the two games together (no in terms of mechanics, but quite possibly the Lore).
Which begs the question: How does this (or should this) work with Realmspace? While M:tG works on the concept of "Mana" - even loosely reading the novels - does this interfere with the Weave? Would it? Would it work harmoniously with the Weave? What sort of ramifications occur when, say... a Wizard of the Tolarian Academies of Dominaria plane-shifts into Waterdeep?
Something that prompted this cross-over idea was the designs of the evil Planeswalker Nicol Bolas and his desire to conquer the various planes of Magic and I don't see him stopping or attempting to take planes such as Toril or Eberron.
Which also makes me question: What is the power-level of someone like a Planeswalker, at least in comparison to what powerful beings we have on Faerūn such as the Chosen, Archmages, Archliches, etc.? Is the power comparable? Are Planeswalkers more supreme, maybe like lesser power Deities? How would you classify them?
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 02:09:54
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They might make it a standalone setting, nominally isolated from the rest of the D&D cosmos. Like they did with Darksun and Eberron.
Establishing links between the worlds would require conversion of MtG and D&D into each other's rulesets. Quite a comprehensive project, likely to produce more rulebooks than the Core ruleset or setting rulesets ... a worthwhile undertaking (for WotC) if the crossover generates a lot of ongoing interest (and revenue).
But it would also open a lot of cans of worms. Could Planescape or Spelljammer reach this world of Theros? Does Ravenloft intrude on Theros? Does it impose special rules on magic, spellcasting, psionics, etc? How do cosmos=spanning D&D things (like artifacts, the Spellplague, Hand and Eye of Vecna, Asmodeus) affect the MtG game world? - either it does or it doesn't, and either way the reasons need to be explained.
I'm guessing that a lot of MtG players are also D&D players, they'd love to see these things linked together.
And I'm guessing that a lot of people play MtG or play D&D but have no interest in playing both and strong feelings about keeping them apart. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 03:45:47
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They work fine together.
As Ed has said MANY times - the forgotten realms are NOT just realmspace - its the many worlds of the alternate prime material planes, that we on Earth forgot about.
I see no reason why the entirety of MTG could not fit into a subset of the many worlds. Thus you have the planeswalkers, and their known planes. There are literally INFINITE material planes. Room for all.
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Edited by - The Masked Mage on 30 Jul 2020 03:46:16 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 11:57:55
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From what I've seen mind you, of these MTG worlds, a lot of them seem much smaller in scale than say realmspace. I say that in looking at Amonkhet, and Ravnica is all about a city too I thought. Are these much smaller in scale (I think the one with the jungle... Ixalan
may have been bigger). I venture that some of these might be less on the size of a crystal sphere and more on the size of a large demiplane? Am I close to hitting the nail on the head with that statement? If so, then that does make the idea of the power of these planeswalkers more scaled back (to kind of get back to your original question).
As an aside, what I kind of wonder is whether it might not be a fun thing to introduce either NEW planets or REPLACED planets into realmspace as a result of the Second Sundering? After all, did Ao only twin the one world? Was there maybe other worlds at the time of the Tearfall and they were ALSO pulled into phase with Abeir?
This all being said, Diffan, I must say how awful of you..... teasing me like that.... it's.. it's
just plain mean.... so WotC released something and no links so that I can instantly gorge myself on the material? 
No worries, I googled the name. Huh, they have a lion folk (they call it the Leonin). I was putting some in Katashaka and calling them Lenastans
yoink, bought. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 30 Jul 2020 12:19:27 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 12:59:49
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Diffan: Ever played the Norwegian Funcom games The Longest Journey and Dreamfall? The "hero" is a person able to walk planes, litterally move. Unfortunately, that ability do not provide anything else in those games, so... The two games is "monkey island" style click and rip off stuff and stuff cartwheels into pocket style click games..
The worlds of Magic the Gathering is so different, so different, I imagine Forgotten Realms works with it, nicely. There might be "free magic" for planeswalkers which do not work in FR, as example. As I'm understanding, the heroic storyline Planeswalkers is heroes of journeys, with backstory equal to Drizzt or Elminster, an lvl 1-2 player with the ability would be an 3.5D&D +1 or +2 level character on his first jouney, with an magical ability (from an feat) granting a skill he or she do not fully understand, giving a vague magical ability, perhaps to roll a dice and try something, in a dream, or on certain places, to go, to walk, suddenly to wake up in different planes.... 
Just my sugestion to make it work. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 14:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
They might make it a standalone setting, nominally isolated from the rest of the D&D cosmos. Like they did with Darksun and Eberron.
Establishing links between the worlds would require conversion of MtG and D&D into each other's rulesets. Quite a comprehensive project, likely to produce more rulebooks than the Core ruleset or setting rulesets ... a worthwhile undertaking (for WotC) if the crossover generates a lot of ongoing interest (and revenue).
That's pretty much what they did with the 5th Edition ruleset. The two source books and multiple Plane-Shifts all use 5E and only passingly speak about "mana" as a factor in their actual mechanics, but it's more lore focused than anything. I'm not really talking about the card game, but the settings and genre that comes from it and the stories they tell.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But it would also open a lot of cans of worms. Could Planescape or Spelljammer reach this world of Theros? Does Ravenloft intrude on Theros? Does it impose special rules on magic, spellcasting, psionics, etc? How do cosmos=spanning D&D things (like artifacts, the Spellplague, Hand and Eye of Vecna, Asmodeus) affect the MtG game world? - either it does or it doesn't, and either way the reasons need to be explained.
All questions I'd love some feedback on. Ultimately WotC is treating each setting as its own "Sphere". Meaning that events that occur in say....Curse of Strhad won't effect anything relating to the multi-verse of M:tG (unless you want it to). But with all of these following the same rulset, I don't see how it's not at least possible cross-overs can't occur and possibly should. Something about Thayan wizards getting a hold of Phyrexian technology and spells absolutely thrills and terrifies me at the same time! It's certainly something to think about.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm guessing that a lot of MtG players are also D&D players, they'd love to see these things linked together.
And I'm guessing that a lot of people play MtG or play D&D but have no interest in playing both and strong feelings about keeping them apart.
I guess I fall into the first group, getting into Magic before I got into D&D but it always sort of felt they should've been paired FAR FAR earlier than now. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 14:36:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
They work fine together.
As Ed has said MANY times - the forgotten realms are NOT just realmspace - its the many worlds of the alternate prime material planes, that we on Earth forgot about.
I see no reason why the entirety of MTG could not fit into a subset of the many worlds. Thus you have the planeswalkers, and their known planes. There are literally INFINITE material planes. Room for all.
My thoughts as well, which makes for a great discussion on how these crossovers could affect places such as the Realms! I could certainly see some of the more powerful Planeswalkers coming to Faerūn to seek guidance, help, spells, magic, etc. from the more notable people.
And of course, this intrusion into Realmspace from the M:tG folks can put them into these places as well. Zhentarim soldiers helping solidify boarders of Keld on Dominaria or the Arcane Brotherhood working with Dimir infiltrators or the Order of Aster teaming up with the Boros Legion! Lots of really interesting concepts to think about. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 14:50:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
From what I've seen mind you, of these MTG worlds, a lot of them seem much smaller in scale than say realmspace. I say that in looking at Amonkhet, and Ravnica is all about a city too I thought. Are these much smaller in scale (I think the one with the jungle... Ixalan
may have been bigger). I venture that some of these might be less on the size of a crystal sphere and more on the size of a large demiplane? Am I close to hitting the nail on the head with that statement? If so, then that does make the idea of the power of these planeswalkers more scaled back (to kind of get back to your original question).
It's known that many of the Planes of Magic: the Gathering are indeed Spheres like a Planet. Dominaria, the "hub" as it were, is approximately over twice the size of Earth. Ravnica, despite the book focusing on one part of the setting, is like a giant city-planet (think Coruscant from Star Wars). Other planes, like Rath, are legitimately one singular plane of ground that tappers at the bottom OR the Shards of Alara sort of piece together to form a large plane.
I'd say for the most part they are their own worlds and quite large.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As an aside, what I kind of wonder is whether it might not be a fun thing to introduce either NEW planets or REPLACED planets into realmspace as a result of the Second Sundering? After all, did Ao only twin the one world? Was there maybe other worlds at the time of the Tearfall and they were ALSO pulled into phase with Abeir?
That's definitely a great way to introduce them in a campaign setting, for sure. At least, how people "in the know" might view or otherwise sense their appearance and possibly find ways to interact with them.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This all being said, Diffan, I must say how awful of you..... teasing me like that.... it's.. it's
just plain mean.... so WotC released something and no links so that I can instantly gorge myself on the material?
No worries, I googled the name. Huh, they have a lion folk (they call it the Leonin). I was putting some in Katashaka and calling them Lenastans
yoink, bought.
Lol, sorry. Here's links to them:
Amonkhet
Dominaria
Innistrad
Ixalan
Kaladesh
Zendikar
These are all free offerings from WotC sites to use in your games. I also highly recommend both the Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica and Mythic Odyssey of Theros as they're great supplements that you can use for any style campaign. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 15:00:26
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| When they were pulling together 5e, one of the positive things they highlighted about 2E was the enormous expansion of settings. Seems like we are seeing that now. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 16:49:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
All questions I'd love some feedback on. Ultimately WotC is treating each setting as its own "Sphere". Meaning that events that occur in say....Curse of Strhad won't effect anything relating to the multi-verse of M:tG (unless you want it to). But with all of these following the same rulset, I don't see how it's not at least possible cross-overs can't occur and possibly should. Something about Thayan wizards getting a hold of Phyrexian technology and spells absolutely thrills and terrifies me at the same time! It's certainly something to think about.
You know how to get my attention. Shine the light and I will follow please goodsir. Phyrexian technology is where? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 20:52:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
All questions I'd love some feedback on. Ultimately WotC is treating each setting as its own "Sphere". Meaning that events that occur in say....Curse of Strhad won't effect anything relating to the multi-verse of M:tG (unless you want it to). But with all of these following the same rulset, I don't see how it's not at least possible cross-overs can't occur and possibly should. Something about Thayan wizards getting a hold of Phyrexian technology and spells absolutely thrills and terrifies me at the same time! It's certainly something to think about.
You know how to get my attention. Shine the light and I will follow please goodsir. Phyrexian technology is where?
Well they haven't given stats for things found in M:tG universes for D&D, yet. Lore & Info about the old Phyrexian plane can be found here. Basically its really bad, infuse with chaos and pain. It's the place I envisioned the ship from the movie Event Horizon making its way to and back from.
They're basically the Big Bad through most of the early years of M:tG and wanting to take over other Planes. Their artifacts and devices can be looked through Here and be my guest at turning these things into monsters or devices found in D&D.
Edit: Also, I should point out that Phyrexian's are similar to the Borg in some regards, taking people they capture and turning them into monstrosities of their former selves. |
Edited by - Diffan on 30 Jul 2020 21:57:41 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 21:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
When they were pulling together 5e, one of the positive things they highlighted about 2E was the enormous expansion of settings. Seems like we are seeing that now.
Well despite their hyper-focus on pretty much JUST the Sword Coast for the Forgotten Realms, getting an Eberron book, a Ravenloft adventure/lore, and two Magic: the Gathering Settings (plus all those Plane-Shifts) I'd say they're doing a pretty great job on that front.
Of course, I'd love to see more of the Realms detailed. Books like Ed's Borderlands Supplement certainly help - no doubt - I just wish he got more on that front. When was the last book about Cormyr? or the Dalelands? Or even the Moonsea (Mysteries of the Moonsea was not my favorite regional book....)? |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 23:31:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
When they were pulling together 5e, one of the positive things they highlighted about 2E was the enormous expansion of settings. Seems like we are seeing that now.
Well despite their hyper-focus on pretty much JUST the Sword Coast for the Forgotten Realms, getting an Eberron book, a Ravenloft adventure/lore, and two Magic: the Gathering Settings (plus all those Plane-Shifts) I'd say they're doing a pretty great job on that front.
Of course, I'd love to see more of the Realms detailed. Books like Ed's Borderlands Supplement certainly help - no doubt - I just wish he got more on that front. When was the last book about Cormyr? or the Dalelands? Or even the Moonsea (Mysteries of the Moonsea was not my favorite regional book....)?
I was looking into using Cormyr for an abyssal plot in 5e, and found Cormyr to be an incredibly hard topic to research in the age of 5e.
I would love something to happen involving it.. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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Archfey of Debauchery
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 21:43:57
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| I like this. I think it could be done with 4 or 5 ed. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 14:58:33
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
When they were pulling together 5e, one of the positive things they highlighted about 2E was the enormous expansion of settings. Seems like we are seeing that now.
Well despite their hyper-focus on pretty much JUST the Sword Coast for the Forgotten Realms, getting an Eberron book, a Ravenloft adventure/lore, and two Magic: the Gathering Settings (plus all those Plane-Shifts) I'd say they're doing a pretty great job on that front.
Of course, I'd love to see more of the Realms detailed. Books like Ed's Borderlands Supplement certainly help - no doubt - I just wish he got more on that front. When was the last book about Cormyr? or the Dalelands? Or even the Moonsea (Mysteries of the Moonsea was not my favorite regional book....)?
I was looking into using Cormyr for an abyssal plot in 5e, and found Cormyr to be an incredibly hard topic to research in the age of 5e.
I would love something to happen involving it..
Yeah it's a shame really. Honestly, I don't think there's been a proper supplement for Cormyr since before 3rd Edition. 3E barely touched on the region except what we saw in some novels and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book and while the FRCG for 4th Edition had even less, there were quite a few articles written in Dragon magazine for them. I could find the article numbers and let you know if you'd like? That at least updates Cormyr to the late 1400's DR timeline and you can surmise what happens since. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 15:02:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Totally NOT Copper Elven Vampire
I like this. I think it could be done with 4 or 5 ed.
I think it could use any system, really. What WotC did was remove the concept of "mana" as we know it from a Magic: the Gathering perspective. Even in the novels, mana was referenced as a sort of affinity for particular kinds of magic and you didn't need that resource to cast magic, however if you were in that element then your magic was considerably stronger.
There have been many attempts to put the various D&D Schools of magic into "colors" but I think there's just too much overlap in terms of what spells can achieve to have such arbitrary conformity. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 02:21:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
When they were pulling together 5e, one of the positive things they highlighted about 2E was the enormous expansion of settings. Seems like we are seeing that now.
Well despite their hyper-focus on pretty much JUST the Sword Coast for the Forgotten Realms, getting an Eberron book, a Ravenloft adventure/lore, and two Magic: the Gathering Settings (plus all those Plane-Shifts) I'd say they're doing a pretty great job on that front.
Of course, I'd love to see more of the Realms detailed. Books like Ed's Borderlands Supplement certainly help - no doubt - I just wish he got more on that front. When was the last book about Cormyr? or the Dalelands? Or even the Moonsea (Mysteries of the Moonsea was not my favorite regional book....)?
I was looking into using Cormyr for an abyssal plot in 5e, and found Cormyr to be an incredibly hard topic to research in the age of 5e.
I would love something to happen involving it..
Yeah it's a shame really. Honestly, I don't think there's been a proper supplement for Cormyr since before 3rd Edition. 3E barely touched on the region except what we saw in some novels and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book and while the FRCG for 4th Edition had even less, there were quite a few articles written in Dragon magazine for them. I could find the article numbers and let you know if you'd like? That at least updates Cormyr to the late 1400's DR timeline and you can surmise what happens since.
Tell me about it. One chracter is working solely out of the Scag's desription and the concept of "empire, war wizards, noble knights" as their only reference points. Because of the wonder of 5e's "inspire, dont preach" way of describing things that is totally enough to fuel a character. For tje dm however, it stinks. Idk if its still that heirless queen ruling or a new king. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 11:23:12
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Diffan,
Thanks for introducing me to the product, because I haven't been paying attention to WotC release schedule. I'm only partway through the mystic odysseys of Theros (reading through the gods), but the concepts seem to fit a lot of things I've been interested in seeing. One thing I did note is the two new races, one of which is a Satyr. Also, unlike our mythology, a "satyr" can be female in this. So, I figured there's probably not a lot of minis out there for people, and I figured I'd make a few. Here's my first, and I think it came out kind of good. Tell me what you think of the photos.
Satyr Huntress with ukele, drinking horn, sword, and bow (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4583470) by sleyvas is licensed under the Creative Commons - Attribution license.
This one's more a generic "possible bard, possible ranger/rogue/fighter". Since their main ability score is charisma, I think I'll make a sorcerer and/or a warlock as well. May do some male ones too. I figure if I put out a total of 4 or 6 that should cover things. I may even do a paladin one since their general outlook doesn't match paladinhood, but the scores do. Of course, it will all depend on the models I can find that "fit" the character. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 15:39:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
So the second fully fleshed out campaign setting came out for 5E called Mythic Odyssey of Theros. This, along with Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica and the multitude of Plane-Shift articles (Amonkhet, Dominaria, Innistrad, Zendikar, Kaladesh, and the Ixalan Adventure) has shown me, at least, that WotC is fully committed to pushing the two games together (no in terms of mechanics, but quite possibly the Lore).
Which begs the question: How does this (or should this) work with Realmspace? While M:tG works on the concept of "Mana" - even loosely reading the novels - does this interfere with the Weave? Would it? Would it work harmoniously with the Weave? What sort of ramifications occur when, say... a Wizard of the Tolarian Academies of Dominaria plane-shifts into Waterdeep?
Something that prompted this cross-over idea was the designs of the evil Planeswalker Nicol Bolas and his desire to conquer the various planes of Magic and I don't see him stopping or attempting to take planes such as Toril or Eberron.
Which also makes me question: What is the power-level of someone like a Planeswalker, at least in comparison to what powerful beings we have on Faerūn such as the Chosen, Archmages, Archliches, etc.? Is the power comparable? Are Planeswalkers more supreme, maybe like lesser power Deities? How would you classify them?
A weakened Nicol Bolas waged war on an entire pantheon, drove them to refuge in a city, killed every adult on the plane with a spell, then corrupted the gods into worshipping him.
Bolas is bullshit powerful. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2020 : 12:17:56
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| I started another topic to somewhat discuss the concepts you originated here Diffan. Specifically, I wonder if it might not be a good way to link Theros and Toril via a long ago migration that turned into the Chessentan people. This might be a good way to explain away some other things as well, as Amonkhet might be a good fit for the Mulan origin home world (it might not as well... I haven't extensively read it). Perhaps the Imaskari were something akin to the planes hoppers that magic is using. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2020 : 18:01:58
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| Satyr Wizardess (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4586437) by sleyvas is licensed under the Creative Commons - Attribution license. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2020 : 17:45:06
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
A weakened Nicol Bolas waged war on an entire pantheon, drove them to refuge in a city, killed every adult on the plane with a spell, then corrupted the gods into worshipping him.
Bolas is bullshit powerful.
Yeah, dude is crazy strong. Luckily though, he's currently imprisoned by his brother Ugin. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2020 : 17:55:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I started another topic to somewhat discuss the concepts you originated here Diffan. Specifically, I wonder if it might not be a good way to link Theros and Toril via a long ago migration that turned into the Chessentan people. This might be a good way to explain away some other things as well, as Amonkhet might be a good fit for the Mulan origin home world (it might not as well... I haven't extensively read it). Perhaps the Imaskari were something akin to the planes hoppers that magic is using.
Considering Amonkhet is pretty Egyptian-based, it does make a good fit. Bonus points if you can connect the people of Amonkhet to the Realms and, via the portals from the Realms to Earth, the Egyptian people and full-circle to Amonkhet via a Stargate.... |
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Magic: the Gathering and Realmspace
