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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jul 2020 : 02:53:13
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Apologies for the truncated title.
What I am looking for is a list of trade goods not native to the predominantly European-flavored portion of Faerun. I want to introduce and maintain an element of consistency with regards to everyday life for people in relatively isolated towns. A random citizen is unlikely to have a supply of, say, cocoa or vanilla beans unless some were imported from Maztica or grown by dedicated elven farmers.
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 14:39:42
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Importantly, Faerun is not Earth's Europe.
Potatoes very much exist on Faerun, they're not exotic imports from Maztica. And while coffee beans are imported from Maztica, it is far from the sole source and there are other sources near Durpar and, I think, in Calimshan somewhere.
The same applies for many things that certain authors, perhaps not savvy in Realmslore, have excitedly proclaimed as new and exotic things from Maztica, unknown in Faerun. In most cases, those are simply different strains or variation of things that are already known from somewhere in Faerun. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 15:52:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Importantly, Faerun is not Earth's Europe.
Potatoes very much exist on Faerun, they're not exotic imports from Maztica. And while coffee beans are imported from Maztica, it is far from the sole source and there are other sources near Durpar and, I think, in Calimshan somewhere.
The same applies for many things that certain authors, perhaps not savvy in Realmslore, have excitedly proclaimed as new and exotic things from Maztica, unknown in Faerun. In most cases, those are simply different strains or variation of things that are already known from somewhere in Faerun.
And since there has been at least one European import into the Realms, it's not unreasonable to assume other plants and animals from various parts of Earth could have wound up in the Realms. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Jul 2020 15:53:10 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 17:09:30
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I know it's actual Ed-lore (from both Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms and from the Ask Ed threads on these very boards) that coffee (kaeth) is imported from Maztica . . . but that never made any sense.
1) Canon Maztica material never mentions coffee. The brown bean used to make hot drinks in canon Maztica is cacao, that is, chocolate.
2) Canon Zakhara material makes a very big deal about coffee.
3) 2e material is quite clear that coffee is imported to Faerun from or through the Shining Lands, which is to say, the part of Faerun near Zakhara.
4) In the real world, coffee came from Africa through Arabia to Europe. The first coffee planting in the Americas wasn't until 200 years after Cortez.
Accordingly, I recommend that the idea that coffee comes from Maztica be considered a misperception, perhaps the result of hype surrounding the start of contact with Maztica being exploited by a canny trader to get a better price for beans imported from Zakhara. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 17:31:35
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Or perhaps there is a strain of Maztican coffee that is actually better than the Zakharan, and became the boom in Faerūn, and that's why people believe coffee is from Maztica. Even if coffee was first imported from Faerūn to Maztica.
I mean, in the Real World, the best coffee comes either from Brazil or from Colombia, even thought coffee also can grow in many countries of Africa and the Middle East. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 Jul 2020 17:32:29 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 19:12:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Or perhaps there is a strain of Maztican coffee that is actually better than the Zakharan, and became the boom in Faerūn, and that's why people believe coffee is from Maztica. Even if coffee was first imported from Faerūn to Maztica.
That's possible, sure, but it's pretty implausible.
Let's assume the first test plot of coffee is planted in Maztica in 1364 DR, three years after Cordell first landed, and matching the same year "New Amn" first establishes a colony inland from Helmsport and the first year a non-Amnian ship arrives at Helmsport from Faerūn. (That's insanely soon for trying to start up an experimental export crop in a just-established colony, but, yeah, physically possible.)
We now have to wait the five years for the plants in the test plot to reach the point where they produce a crop of coffee so we can be sure it's possible to successfully grow coffee in Maztica. Okay, it works, so now we dedicate massive resources to planting vast fields of coffee in 1369 DR. (That's also insanely fast and resource-intensive, but again physically possible.)
We now wait until 1374 DR for these coffee plants to mature, and start shipping Maztican coffee in bulk for the first time to Faerūn, where the beans make a massive splash as the best coffee starting in roughly 1375 DR.
Then in 1385 DR the Spellplague rolls around, Maztica and all its coffee plantations move to Abeir.
It's just insanely compressed, time-wise. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 19:21:24
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| I see. Even if they accelerate the growing with magic, the time frame is still very tight. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 05:48:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Importantly, Faerun is not Earth's Europe.
Potatoes very much exist on Faerun, they're not exotic imports from Maztica. And while coffee beans are imported from Maztica, it is far from the sole source and there are other sources near Durpar and, I think, in Calimshan somewhere.
The same applies for many things that certain authors, perhaps not savvy in Realmslore, have excitedly proclaimed as new and exotic things from Maztica, unknown in Faerun. In most cases, those are simply different strains or variation of things that are already known from somewhere in Faerun.
It isn't a 1:1 reproduction by any stretch of the imagination, but we do have distant non-European analogues such as Maztica (a fusion of Central and South America), Zakhara (a mixture of the Middle East plus bits of India) and Kara-Tur (Asia). These analogues produce and refine the natural resources that their real-world counterparts did (and still do). I assume, then, that these far-off locales are exporting their treasures to Faerun in some capacity and either supply the majority or supply the varieties that are most desired. In any case, preserving this quasi-European feeling in the relevant nations of Faerun is my preference as a DM...though I fully admit that I've scarcely scratched the surface of Realmslore  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 10:52:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
It isn't a 1:1 reproduction by any stretch of the imagination, but we do have distant non-European analogues such as Maztica (a fusion of Central and South America), Zakhara (a mixture of the Middle East plus bits of India) and Kara-Tur (Asia). These analogues produce and refine the natural resources that their real-world counterparts did (and still do). I assume, then, that these far-off locales are exporting their treasures to Faerun in some capacity and either supply the majority or supply the varieties that are most desired. In any case, preserving this quasi-European feeling in the relevant nations of Faerun is my preference as a DM...though I fully admit that I've scarcely scratched the surface of Realmslore .
Sure.
Just keep in mind that trade of various goods that on Earth were simply unavailable in Europe, though, is done on Toril for reasons of relative value. For example, silk is not exclusively manufactured in Kara-Tur, even though a prestigious grade of silk is imported from there. There is native Sembian silk.
The silkworms for that silk may well have been originally brought from Kara-Tur, but the differences between Europe and Faerun are very evident here.
Whereas medieval Europe had between 300-2,000 years of written history (which may be used as a proxy for the time advanced polities capable of complex international trade existed in various parts of it), Faerun has 1,300-10,000 years of written history in different parts and it's likely that trade with Kara-Turn has been going on for at least those ten thousand years.
All seeds, breeding stock and other starter kits for things that can grow anywhere in Faerun have long since been brought back from any place where contact has been established for millennia. Only Maztica, recently discovered, is excempt from that, but note that it has not been millions of years since Maztica and Faerun were the same landmass, only less than -40,000. That means that tomatoes, potatoes, maize and all the other stuff is likely to have grown on both landmasses. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 13:40:17
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Or perhaps there is a strain of Maztican coffee that is actually better than the Zakharan, and became the boom in Faerūn, and that's why people believe coffee is from Maztica. Even if coffee was first imported from Faerūn to Maztica.
That's possible, sure, but it's pretty implausible.
Let's assume the first test plot of coffee is planted in Maztica in 1364 DR, three years after Cordell first landed, and matching the same year "New Amn" first establishes a colony inland from Helmsport and the first year a non-Amnian ship arrives at Helmsport from Faerūn. (That's insanely soon for trying to start up an experimental export crop in a just-established colony, but, yeah, physically possible.)
We now have to wait the five years for the plants in the test plot to reach the point where they produce a crop of coffee so we can be sure it's possible to successfully grow coffee in Maztica. Okay, it works, so now we dedicate massive resources to planting vast fields of coffee in 1369 DR. (That's also insanely fast and resource-intensive, but again physically possible.)
We now wait until 1374 DR for these coffee plants to mature, and start shipping Maztican coffee in bulk for the first time to Faerūn, where the beans make a massive splash as the best coffee starting in roughly 1375 DR.
Then in 1385 DR the Spellplague rolls around, Maztica and all its coffee plantations move to Abeir.
It's just insanely compressed, time-wise.
Magic could change this timeframe relatively well, especially if some druids took it as a personal project. I could definitely see some minor magic item created that could repeatedly cast a cantrip that has a seed sprout if placed into soil. It may be a bit labor intensive as perhaps pots have to be created, soil mixed with enriching materials, water gathered, etc.... but the actual growth process could be sped up if the material needs are met manually (or even with some magical help). I could see something wherein you take a seed, put it in a pot, wheel over a barrel of water, cast the spell and suddenly you have a foot tall plant with flowers budding without the time expenditure. I could even see where such a spell being cast on all seeds in X area are thusly affected (so maybe 40 plants get done at once, but it requires all the prep work). If there was like a huge tank of water that's emptied into via an aqueduct, then this would just involve transporting the pots in already filled with enriched soil (possible enriched with things like dead fish, etc..) and then transporting the pots to the enriched fields to be transplanted. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 13:47:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
It isn't a 1:1 reproduction by any stretch of the imagination, but we do have distant non-European analogues such as Maztica (a fusion of Central and South America), Zakhara (a mixture of the Middle East plus bits of India) and Kara-Tur (Asia). These analogues produce and refine the natural resources that their real-world counterparts did (and still do). I assume, then, that these far-off locales are exporting their treasures to Faerun in some capacity and either supply the majority or supply the varieties that are most desired. In any case, preserving this quasi-European feeling in the relevant nations of Faerun is my preference as a DM...though I fully admit that I've scarcely scratched the surface of Realmslore .
Sure.
Just keep in mind that trade of various goods that on Earth were simply unavailable in Europe, though, is done on Toril for reasons of relative value. For example, silk is not exclusively manufactured in Kara-Tur, even though a prestigious grade of silk is imported from there. There is native Sembian silk.
The silkworms for that silk may well have been originally brought from Kara-Tur, but the differences between Europe and Faerun are very evident here.
Whereas medieval Europe had between 300-2,000 years of written history (which may be used as a proxy for the time advanced polities capable of complex international trade existed in various parts of it), Faerun has 1,300-10,000 years of written history in different parts and it's likely that trade with Kara-Turn has been going on for at least those ten thousand years.
All seeds, breeding stock and other starter kits for things that can grow anywhere in Faerun have long since been brought back from any place where contact has been established for millennia. Only Maztica, recently discovered, is excempt from that, but note that it has not been millions of years since Maztica and Faerun were the same landmass, only less than -40,000. That means that tomatoes, potatoes, maize and all the other stuff is likely to have grown on both landmasses.
Just another factor to throw into this weird mess of an equation with things like silk... in our world that consists of gathering silk from tiny spiders or tiny silkworms. In Faerun, silk can come from spider webs made by spiders the size of a dog or a horse, etc.. Gathering spider silk in large quantities simply might not be a problem. Maybe its not the same tensile strength as smaller versions, etc.. or whatever, but the idea that all materials are the same can be thrown out the window. Ivory as a for instance is mostly from creatures like elephants. However, in a world with dire animals, their teeth would probably be capable of being fashioned into ivory. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 17:30:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Magic could change this timeframe
Sure, it could. If you assume a major, magically-assisted effort at taking coffee from an unknown (or little-known, regional) crop in Maztica to a large export crop, you can manage to make Maztica one of the "major sources" (to use the term of EGPEFR) of coffee in Faerūn for a whole two decades between Cordell and the Spellplague.
Alternatively, one can theorize that whomever was bringing "crumbly", "reddish-brown" coffee beans in at Baldur's Gate was lying about the origin of his beans to avoid competitors bidding up the price he paid at the source.
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But, to go to the main thrust of this thread, rather than my derail, coffee. There's a little bit grown in Anauroch, but otherwise it's from beyond Faerun. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 21:23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by see
But, to go to the main thrust of this thread, rather than my derail, coffee. There's a little bit grown in Anauroch, but otherwise it's from beyond Faerun.
Are we counting the Shining South as 'beyond Faerun'?
Because that's probably the main source for most people. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 03:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by see
But, to go to the main thrust of this thread, rather than my derail, coffee. There's a little bit grown in Anauroch, but otherwise it's from beyond Faerun.
Are we counting the Shining South as 'beyond Faerun'?
Because that's probably the main source for most people.
1993's The Shining South (2e) mentions coffee four times, three times in the body and once on the back cover. In this, it twice claims that coffee is from Durpar, and twice claims it's from Ulgarth. (We can note almost all of Ulgarth's trade is through Durpari merchants.)
The 2004 Shining South (3.5) mentions coffee twice. The first time it claims that the "[f]lat, sun-baked plains" that dominate the Shining Lands are suitable for growing coffee. In reality, sun-baked plains are a poor choice for growing coffee; coffee is best grown at altitude, and unless you have artificial fertilizer is best done in the shade of larger trees. The other time it mentions coffee is to say it is "shipped from ports in the Shining Lands to other parts of Faerūn", which isn't the same thing as a claim the coffee is coming from the Shining Lands.
The statement in 2012's EGPEFR is explicit that coffee comes from "south and east of Durpar" and "beyond Durpar". While Ulgarth is east of Durpar, there is in fact no part of Faerun both south and east of Durpar; south and east of Durpar is Zakhara. EGPEFR at least has coffee in the Realms being grown on mountainsides, which is consistent with real life coffee.
My interpretation of this mess is that coffee mostly comes from Zakhara ("south and east of Durpar") and is imported to Faerun through Durpar, with the possibility that some is grown in the mountains of Ulgarth. |
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List of non-"Western" goods to exclude?
