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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jul 2020 : 00:41:25
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Aside from the following brief entry in Faiths & Avatars, he and his followers seem to operate as Lawful Neutral or Lawful Neutral (Good) more than anything else.
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In his more affectionate moods, he sometimes refers to his abode in Lunia as the Just House, and one senses from him at times an odd sort of longing to want to be able to deal with troubles as one could among a perfect family: with love, courage, and the knowledge that everyone will try their best and not betray their fellows because of a special bond that all share.
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2020 : 02:11:23
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Well, first off, did you notice this part of the description: "Worshipers Alignments: LG, NG, LN. So not every follower of Tyr is LG.
How about: " Tyr's symbol shows his nature: justice through benevolent force and armed vigilance. He opposes all beings who deal in trickery, rule-breaking, and unjust destruction or misdeeds. He is said to be a latecomer among the powers of Faerûn, appearing over a millennium ago but after most other Realms powers had established themselves. His faith is popular, as everyone knows exactly what Tyr expects his faithful to do and everyone can trust Tyrrans to be honorable, honest, just, and righteous."
Or the bit right before what you quoted: "Tyr is rather enigmatic to those outside his faith. He represents such stern justice that it is difficult to see the more subtle qualities of the god. He is a courageous father figure to his faithful and struggles continually to achieve for his follows a paradisiacal state of affairs in Faerûn that he knows will never come in an imperfect world" |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2020 : 02:43:13
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| I did, but I chose the text that describes him at his most intimate (which is also the most charitable interpretation). Best case scenario, he seems to be a hard Lawful Good; Torm - who is also Lawful Good - is more understanding by comparison. Hell, I'd argue that Tyr's not too different from Saint Cuthbert (a deity of Oerth/Greyhawk that's either Lawful Neutral or Lawful Neutral with Good tendencies). Are there any canonical examples of the good side of either Tyr or his followers shining through? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2020 : 15:35:23
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| I think its fair to see Tyr as more lawful than he is good, but he's still good. He wants laws to be benevolent and while more lawful, would actively work to change unjust laws, where Helm might not. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2020 : 15:38:25
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| Azar - through his clerics and artifact Hammer of Tyr; he is actively involved in saving the citizens of Phlan from chaos and evil in the Pools Trilogy. Brother Anton and Tarl Dessanea are both very high level priests of Tyr featured in those novels, and fight with Bane and his minions (almost directly in the 2nd book). |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2020 : 19:04:17
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As Steven Sondheim noted: "Nice is different than good."
Tyr's position is justice, but what is just to him is NOT neutral - it is the good. Look at who is friends are and compare to his enemies. A neutral power would not be so one sided in his ideology. There is good and bad and right and wrong - with Tyr there is not a gray area between. This might be harsh - its not nice, but it is fair because it is constant. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 04:21:27
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| The text does say Tyr is a high idea...you could say hard lawful good personally. And he wants his followers to be like him....but most find it hard to do so. Tyr sets a high bar. Tyr is not understanding, for example if you break a law even to do a good thing, Tyr is the type of guy that would still demand you pay for breaking that law. Though most followers would 'bend the law' just a bit and give that person a pass. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 11:33:39
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Isn't it more the realm of lawful neutral that you can't break laws in any circumstances, where lawful good would say follow the law but obviously with the means to an end to achieve "good"? Obviously not to the same extent as chaotic good which would hate laws that get in the way of good.
To me only lawful neutral would put the laws above all else. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 12:07:49
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
The text does say Tyr is a high idea...you could say hard lawful good personally. And he wants his followers to be like him....but most find it hard to do so. Tyr sets a high bar. Tyr is not understanding, for example if you break a law even to do a good thing, Tyr is the type of guy that would still demand you pay for breaking that law. Though most followers would 'bend the law' just a bit and give that person a pass.
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Isn't it more the realm of lawful neutral that you can't break laws in any circumstances, where lawful good would say follow the law but obviously with the means to an end to achieve "good"? Obviously not to the same extent as chaotic good which would hate laws that get in the way of good.
To me only lawful neutral would put the laws above all else.
Actually, Ed stated Tyr's wants his worshipers break laws, if the laws protect evil/perpetuate evil, and protect evildoers who weren't punished or are protected by laws (as detailed in Questions for Ed Greenwood from 2005), as Tyr is a god of justice 9more in the source):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3684&whichpage=4
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As I see it, Tyr is a god of justice rather than law, and so his clergy have an ongoing duty to bring about justice, both by working to continually improve the secular laws of various places in the Realms (even when faced by rulers and enforcers who manifestly don’t want such “help”), and by bringing justice to bear on individuals whom the law doesn’t touch (either because they’ve been granted immunity to legal punishment, or because the laws as drafted don’t apply to their sly activities, even though such activities would clearly be judged “wrong” by their fellow citizens). Criminals have always been ‘one step ahead of the law,’ and laws are always drafted by those in power to benefit themselves and their usual activities (in other words, to support the status quo in which they are ‘on top’). Just as in our real world, the laws in most parts of the Realms give preferential status to royalty or rulers over commoners, nobility over commoners, and citizens over outlanders (foreigners) or slaves or non-humans.
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Edited by - Baltas on 30 Jul 2020 12:09:43 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 14:34:45
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Tyr's dogma and the activities of his priests actively involves having his clergy work toward improving legislation, reforming judicial systems and the criminal justice systems in the Realms to ensure that mortal laws better reflect Tyr's divine ideal of justice.
There might be Good reasons to uphold an imperfect law in a certain case or even condone a flawed system, because arbitrary enforcement of laws, even when 'fair' in one case, often lead to more injustice and misery down the road, but Tyr expects his priests to correct such imperfect legislation whenever they get the opportunity.
I don't see any contrast between 'Lawful Good' and the activities of Tyr's faithful in the Realms. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 17:02:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Isn't it more the realm of lawful neutral that you can't break laws in any circumstances, where lawful good would say follow the law but obviously with the means to an end to achieve "good"? Obviously not to the same extent as chaotic good which would hate laws that get in the way of good.
To me only lawful neutral would put the laws above all else.
Nope - the second part of alignment is where one falls on moral issues. "Is murder bad?" Answer yes = good. Answer no = evil. Answer "that depends on the situation - like, if you could murder Hitler that is good" = neutral
The code of laws Tyr supports focus on what is good and evil and adherence to them is dictated by lawfulness.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2020 : 17:08:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Tyr's dogma and the activities of his priests actively involves having his clergy work toward improving legislation, reforming judicial systems and the criminal justice systems in the Realms to ensure that mortal laws better reflect Tyr's divine ideal of justice.
There might be Good reasons to uphold an imperfect law in a certain case or even condone a flawed system, because arbitrary enforcement of laws, even when 'fair' in one case, often lead to more injustice and misery down the road, but Tyr expects his priests to correct such imperfect legislation whenever they get the opportunity.
I don't see any contrast between 'Lawful Good' and the activities of Tyr's faithful in the Realms.
Me either, that would be my take on both Tyr and Lawful Good. You want the laws to uphold the good and be well written in that they are fair and give justice to all.
Impossible in practice, but a nice ideal. And only a God could be able to find solutions to all the grey areas of life. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 05:26:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Actually, Ed stated Tyr's wants his worshipers break laws, if the laws protect evil/perpetuate evil, and protect evildoers who weren't punished or are protected by laws (as detailed in Questions for Ed Greenwood from 2005), as Tyr is a god of justice (more in the source):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3684&whichpage=4
quote:
As I see it, Tyr is a god of justice rather than law, and so his clergy have an ongoing duty to bring about justice, both by working to continually improve the secular laws of various places in the Realms (even when faced by rulers and enforcers who manifestly don’t want such “help”), and by bringing justice to bear on individuals whom the law doesn’t touch (either because they’ve been granted immunity to legal punishment, or because the laws as drafted don’t apply to their sly activities, even though such activities would clearly be judged “wrong” by their fellow citizens). Criminals have always been ‘one step ahead of the law,’ and laws are always drafted by those in power to benefit themselves and their usual activities (in other words, to support the status quo in which they are ‘on top’). Just as in our real world, the laws in most parts of the Realms give preferential status to royalty or rulers over commoners, nobility over commoners, and citizens over outlanders (foreigners) or slaves or non-humans.
Wow. I find that interpretation eminently reasonable. That sounds like someone that considers law a means to obtain and maintain justice as opposed to someone that believes law is a master to serve unquestioningly. Previously, when I contemplated The Triad, I saw Tyr as the one who favors Law over Good, Torm as the balance between Law and Good and Ilmater as the one that favors Good over Law. That may have been erroneous thinking; they all seem to default to Good when a conflict between ethics and morality arises...merely in different ways. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2020 : 05:29:18
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Seeker Azar,
I've created as well as commented on multiple scrolls regarding the field of ethics as it applies to deities, mortals, and societies, and I think this situation ranks right up there with those. Great question and I am so glad to see it come up.
I don't believe Tyr is good, based on the lore about him. An excerpt from the dogma of Tyr below, helps define this:
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The Tyrrans saw the world in black-and-white morality and wanted Faerûn to be cleansed of its lawlessness and chaos.[5] They were devoted to justice and the deliverance of vengeance, but not in the manner that sought equality. Rather, they believed in illuminating the truth behind corruption and punishment of the guilty.[2]
What's the most interesting about that quote to me is that "...the deliverance of vengeance, but not in the manner that sought equality." as a legal system is commensurate with for example, that taken from Aethelberht 1st of the Kingdom of Kent (before England was a thing as we know it now) in 616 A.D. That system was a bastardized version of civil/tort, singular, private, public, and citizen law from Roman times, and was wholly different than the typical Germanic jurisprudence of that time known as leges barbarorum, or the law of barbarians. The point of me mentioning this is that we now days think of justice in a different way, which is a more liberal form of justice. What Tyr is pushing is what Æthelberht the 1st often referred to as "dooms." These dooms were edicts handed down from the proper authority, in that case, the king. Those edicts were not necessarily predicated on tenets that we consider important to justice these days: mercy, fairness, and equity. In fact, one of the very important aspects of Ilmater in the Triad is that he is one of the three fundamental points of balancing that brings mercy to the equation. Tyr himself doesn't show up with that tenet as a central pillar of himself as evidenced by the 2nd edition Faiths and Avatars:
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Novices of Tyr are charged to: “Reveal the truth, punish the guilty, right the wrong, and be always true and just in your actions.” Tyr and his followers are devoted to the cause of justice, to the righting of
wrongs and the deliverance of just vengeance. This is not necessarily equality or fairness, as some make the maimed god out to represent, but rather the discovery of truth and the punishment of the guilty. Tyrrans tend to be stiff-necked about theology and to see matters in black and white terms.
I hallmark that because, while taking a posture of ethical utilitiarianism (I am not saying that is my personal ethic, but one that is common in the American adversarial legal system and jurisprudence so that I can quote John Rawl here...), the demonstration of Tyr's hard approach to law, doesn't smack of any form of morality, because the process isn't about good or evil. The process is an ethical one that is, I believe, one of classical legal positivism: essentially, a very black and white approach with the arguable removal of "morality" from the equation. I also argue there is a textualist approach to it, but that is another argument all together.
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In his more affectionate moods, he sometimes refers to his abode in Lunia as the Just House, and one senses from him at times an odd sort of longing to want to be able to deal with troubles as one could among a perfect family: with love, courage, and the knowledge that everyone will try their best and not betray their fellows because of a special bond that all share.
I do believe that quote above to be quite possibly the romantic expressions of this deity in an unguarded moment, waxing poetic about something that he knows will never come to pass.
Here are my citations so you can reference the material I pulled up from my bookmarks for this:
1) https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice-retributive/
2) https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Anglo-Saxon_law
3) Roman Republics, by Harriet I. Flower, ISBN: 9780691152585 (on my shelf, not a bookmark: great book!)
4) A matter of interpretation : federal courts and the law : an essay, by Scalia, Antonin; Gutmann, Amy (fantastic read, and I think able to be found online)
5) A Plea for the Constitution, by John Austin, 1859
Best regards! |
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2020 : 01:25:46
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cpthero2, what you've said certainly reinforces part of my perspective on Tyr. I can honestly see readers going either way with the leader of The Triad in regards to his Alignment: justice - as opposed to law for law's sake - is mentioned far too often to be ignored. Even if there are semi-contradictory explanations that make it clear that his (or at least his clergy's) perspective on justice doesn't align with the reader's opinion on the subject, his badge of ethics/morality (Lawful Good) is plain to see. I'd wager that convenience lead those reading Faiths & Avatars to assume he's a authority in the truest sense of the word, but basically moral.
Now, this may very well be a deviation from the most grounded/well-defended interpretation of The Even-Handed when placed alongside historical law, but I've decided to make Tyr a - as previously said - "hard" Lawful Good; his judicial heuristics don't seem to be quite as dispassionate as those of Amaunator, Helm or Siamorphe. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2020 : 20:09:08
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Seeker Azar,
As always, I appreciate greatly your well written words on the matter.
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I can honestly see readers going either way with the leader of The Triad in regards to his Alignment: justice - as opposed to law for law's sake - is mentioned far too often to be ignored.
Agreed. I feel the crux of the matter is how a reader takes a step down to examine the ethic by which they are defining their moral code. Juxtaposing a cyrenaic form of hedonism against a legally pragmatic sense of utilitarianism is certainly going to facilitate a wildly different understanding of right versus wrong. Though juxtaposing those two ethics is of course due to my desire to facilitate an easy to witness, albeit hyperbolic, understanding of two outcomes of morality, I feel the point is made with reasonableness.
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Even if there are semi-contradictory explanations that make it clear that his (or at least his clergy's) perspective on justice doesn't align with the reader's opinion on the subject, his badge of ethics/morality (Lawful Good) is plain to see. I'd wager that convenience lead those reading Faiths & Avatars to assume he's a authority in the truest sense of the word, but basically moral.
I see your point and agree with it up to the point of whether a person utilizes subjective or established alignment systems. I use a relative alignment system, and I think that is the clear point of demarcation regarding that issue.
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; his judicial heuristics don't seem to be quite as dispassionate as those of Amaunator, Helm or Siamorphe.
Point made, and well, good sir! haha
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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What makes Tyr Lawful "Good?"
