| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 20:19:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Crawford said "The changes ahead are about people, who get to choose who they are and what they believe. Gods are immortal individuals in D&D, and they can be as petty, loving, wicked, cruel, beautiful, compassionate, glorious, or wise as befits them" (I looked for the Tweet lol). He said he agreed when I responded that a way to show an alternate path for the drow is through Eilistraee, and that the gods are active forces.
This does not allay my fears completely, as, one, 5e changes things on a dime these days, and two, in light of events in Relentless, it makes me wonder if they're going to further distance the gods and simplify the cosmology (especially if it's about people and their choices, which it's really always been, but they seem to be emphasizing that more now).
Up to now, 5e has only said that the gods are distant, but it has done nothing to show it (in novels, at least. In sources, they say that gods are distant, but then describe them as usual. Though they do give far less info about them than in the past, but that goes for everything in 5e).
Anyway, that statement at least tells you that they're not going to change the origins of the gods (at least, not more than they've already changed it for the elven and drow gods). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
 |
|
|
Fanatic66
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 16:41:24
|
| I highly recommend everyone to watch a recent interview with RA Salvatore that talks about Relentless (among other things): https://theroarbots.com/30-years-in-the-making-an-interview-with-r-a-salvatore/. He said that the reveal of Lolth as an "infection" comes from unreliable narrators, aka the illithid, so take the revelation with a grain of salt. He also talks about why he doesn't like Eilistraee, and that he's been working towards this drow civil war for quite some time. He was never happy with people thinking the drow are all naturally evil, and this arc leading to the upcoming civil war was his long term attempt to show that drow, like regular people, can choose good or evil. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 16:46:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fanatic66
I highly recommend everyone to watch a recent interview with RA Salvatore that talks about Relentless (among other things): https://theroarbots.com/30-years-in-the-making-an-interview-with-r-a-salvatore/. He said that the reveal of Lolth as an "infection" comes from unreliable narrators, aka the illithid, so take the revelation with a grain of salt. He also talks about why he doesn't like Eilistraee, and that he's been working towards this drow civil war for quite some time. He was never happy with people thinking the drow are all naturally evil, and this arc leading to the upcoming civil war was his long term attempt to show that drow, like regular people, can choose good or evil.
So he wants to show that drow can be good or evil while dumping on the only good deity in the drow pantheon?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Fanatic66
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 17:05:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Fanatic66
I highly recommend everyone to watch a recent interview with RA Salvatore that talks about Relentless (among other things): https://theroarbots.com/30-years-in-the-making-an-interview-with-r-a-salvatore/. He said that the reveal of Lolth as an "infection" comes from unreliable narrators, aka the illithid, so take the revelation with a grain of salt. He also talks about why he doesn't like Eilistraee, and that he's been working towards this drow civil war for quite some time. He was never happy with people thinking the drow are all naturally evil, and this arc leading to the upcoming civil war was his long term attempt to show that drow, like regular people, can choose good or evil.
So he wants to show that drow can be good or evil while dumping on the only good deity in the drow pantheon?
I don't remember his exact reasoning, all I remember is that he mentioned he's not a fan of Eilistraee.
Either way, I expect some big changes for the Menzoberranzan drow due to Relentless. Surprisingly, Salvatore said he was planning this break from Lolth for the last few years. Fortunate timing with WotC's recent decisions to move away from "some races are innately bad." Not that Realms drow were ever really innately evil (see Eilistraee, Drizzt, etc.), but there's a big public perception that drow are bad by nature. Its one of the interesting facets of Matt Mercer's Wildemount setting, where there's a large kingdom of drow that rejected Lolth and have a very interesting faith. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 19:27:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fanatic66
I highly recommend everyone to watch a recent interview with RA Salvatore that talks about Relentless (among other things): https://theroarbots.com/30-years-in-the-making-an-interview-with-r-a-salvatore/. He said that the reveal of Lolth as an "infection" comes from unreliable narrators, aka the illithid, so take the revelation with a grain of salt. He also talks about why he doesn't like Eilistraee, and that he's been working towards this drow civil war for quite some time. He was never happy with people thinking the drow are all naturally evil, and this arc leading to the upcoming civil war was his long term attempt to show that drow, like regular people, can choose good or evil.
And his stance about Eilistraee seems to come from ignorance tbh.Then again RAS is indeed notorious for not being the most knowledgeable author about FR.
He says that he doesn't like Eilistraee because that level of god-coercion for god reasons reduces the “mortals” to puppets.
However, Eilistraee's lore is described as doing the opposite of coercing mortals. She's in fact described as goddess who strives to empower her people to make their choices and find their path. She's described as helping and conforting them without being intrusive (as in, for example, helping in practical matters of their everyday lives, scaring aggressors away, etc... without being openly revealing of her intervention). You could see her as watching over mortals in their "journey", and by offering them the tools to travel it themselves and overcome its challenges. This is a valid approach to paint a deity character. In fact, one of the reasons I'm so fond of her is that she subverts most tropes involving gods. Even her choice to forgo all she could have wanted just to be with the drow, since she'd foreseen times of need, fits that. The culture inspired by her is based on nurturing arts and beauty, freedom of expression, and acceptance, and being a nurturing matriarchy, this also makes her a really good foil to Lolth.
One of the ways WotC intentionally crapped all over her lore when they tried to get rid of her was by portraying her as the exact opposite of all this, almost line by line. She came off as very similar to Lolth, which was utter BS. But that's a different matter
So, while it's obvious to not want to turn this into a god vs god issue, Eilistraee's culture doesn't need to be motivated by "I do this because I follow her", it can easily be motivated by "I do this, because I believe it's the right thing to do/it's what leads to happines/etc..." Likewise, following Eilistraee, for a drow, can be motivated by "I follow Eilistraee because she embodies what I believe in" or by more personal reasons related to personal stories; depends on the individual. After all, in the ancient times of FR history, when the first instance of her culture appeared, it wasn't Eilistraee to go around converting people, it was people founding a nation based on ideals associated with her. Eilistraee acted as an empowerer and patroness for that.
But let's be real here. His dislike for Eilistraee dates back to far before that interview (he stated it in old interviews too)--and let's also be blunt, it was because the impression was that Drizzt would be "less special" with her around. Which explains all the crap that emerged on WotC's actions towards her over the second half of 3e.
I'm also not buying that he's been planning this for such a long time, and I addressed why in the Relentless spoilers thread. The worldbuilding of the drow makes no sense without dissent, disillusion, and splinter movements being rampant and starting to develop a LONG time before the present ere. Had RAS been so insistent on showing the nuance in the drow, he would have played on that. He would have explored the consequences of such a crappy society, which include people getting fed up of being treated like subhuman sh*tstains. He would have also included different cultures formed over the millennia a long time ago in his representation. He didn't, he always was about Lolth, Lolth, Lolth wanting to get Drizzt, Drizzt hunts, and some more Lolth. And Jarlaxle, but that's not a culture.
But his dislike of dogma vs dogma/coercion vs coercion being just an excuse is even more evident once you start looking into this story--it tries to condemn absolutism, but engages in it when it supports certain moral systems (Drizzt's). The story doesn't discuss this system in a critical way; it doesn't analyze it or show *how* or *why* it can work. Nope, it's taken as "the right choice" a priori, so one absolutism is just traded for another. But I talked about this too in the Relentless spoilers thread. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Aug 2020 20:32:35 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 23:21:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fanatic66
I highly recommend everyone to watch a recent interview with RA Salvatore that talks about Relentless (among other things): https://theroarbots.com/30-years-in-the-making-an-interview-with-r-a-salvatore/. He said that the reveal of Lolth as an "infection" comes from unreliable narrators, aka the illithid, so take the revelation with a grain of salt. He also talks about why he doesn't like Eilistraee, and that he's been working towards this drow civil war for quite some time. He was never happy with people thinking the drow are all naturally evil, and this arc leading to the upcoming civil war was his long term attempt to show that drow, like regular people, can choose good or evil.
Ed Greenwood himself has said that much of Forgotten Realms lore is presented through the unreliable narrator (Elminster, Volo, bards, etc). Much like real world history, we know some truths, and can garner basic information from that, but we don't know all.
However, based on this interview and others of Bob I have seen recently, he seemed to be using the unreliable narrator as a crutch. It is a way of avoiding responsibility for anything that happens in his stories. In another interview, he says he does it in part because if WotC decides to go a different direction a few years from now, he can point to the "unreliable narrator". I get this, but it also sounds like, "I'm gonna do whatever the hell I want". When you are the most popular writer in the FR-verse, and many readers learn about Faerun through you, then you have some responsibility to actually represent the setting you are writing in, methinks.
As I said in the other Relentless thread, I feel like RAS is projecting his "fall" from Catholicism onto the gods of FR. I think there is some bitterness towards real world religion leaking into the pages of his writing. He doesn't like Eilistraee because he doesn't want the drow to be good because of X god, but this negates all that Eilistraee represents, and also just points the finger at all religions. He easily points to how religion corrupts--the matrons of Lolth, Mielikki's decree (which is against Mielikki's character, btw), but not how it heals--Eilistraee, Ilmater, all the other deities who actually care about their followers.
Worship is important in Faerun, however, with exceptions like Lolth, you aren't forced to worship a particular one. Most Faerunians are polytheistic, and they choose their patron deity based on their morals and ethical beliefs--really not that different from the "Mielikki is what is in my heart". Most gods aren't like, "you must worship me because I said so". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 01:26:03
|
Well, they have pointed the finger to us atheists since 2e with things like the Wall of the Faithless and other stuff, so I don't mind if religious people get the same treatment for a change.
I do agree with you, however, in as one of the main FR authors, he should respect the setting lore a bit. I've read only a few of his novels, but I find that all of those contradict established lore... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 01:38:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, they have pointed the finger to us atheists since 2e with things like the Wall of the Faithless and other stuff, so I don't mind if religious people get the same treatment for a change.
Sorry, this makes no sense. I dislike the Wall as much as you (well, Idk how much you dislike it, but I outright hate it), but this pretty much is: "something wrong was done to me, so I don't mind something wrong being done to people who didn't do that to me, but have something in common with those who did this to me."
In RAS' case this also comes with having a completely ignorant and distorted view of certain characters--of the work of others. Using the work of others to get where he is (his personal stuff didn't sell nearly as well Drizzt) and then trashing it. Wanting the advantages of writing in a shared world, but refusing the responsibility of respecting the work of others that he is using. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Aug 2020 01:45:42 |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 01:52:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, they have pointed the finger to us atheists since 2e with things like the Wall of the Faithless and other stuff, so I don't mind if religious people get the same treatment for a change.
Sorry, this makes no sense. I dislike the Wall as much as you (well, Idk how much you dislike it, but I outright hate it), but this pretty much is: "something wrong was done to me, so I don't mind something wrong being done to people who didn't do that to me, but have something in common with those who did this to me."
If you put it that way, it sounds wrong, yes.  But, having felt bullied for so many years, I guess I'm bit bitter and see this as some form of retribution to the fans who always have justified that Wall. I shouldn't lump the people who dislike it and happen to be religious as well.
I'm sorry if I offended you in some form. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 02:09:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, they have pointed the finger to us atheists since 2e with things like the Wall of the Faithless and other stuff, so I don't mind if religious people get the same treatment for a change.
Sorry, this makes no sense. I dislike the Wall as much as you (well, Idk how much you dislike it, but I outright hate it), but this pretty much is: "something wrong was done to me, so I don't mind something wrong being done to people who didn't do that to me, but have something in common with those who did this to me."
If you put it that way, it sounds wrong, yes. But, having felt bullied for so many years, I guess I'm bit bitter and see this as some form of retribution to the fans who always have justified that Wall. I shouldn't lump the people who dislike it and happen to be religious as well.
I'm sorry if I offended you in some form.
I'm not a fan of the Wall, either, nor am I all that religious--though I wouldn't call myself atheist, either. But this is what I mean about projecting lol (though I'm not aiming this directly at you). In FR, religion is very much a part of the world, and the fate of souls is also very much a thing. RAS can be an atheist IRL. I don't care about that. The issue is when he projects that into a setting he is not only writing in, but practically representing. When he twists the lore because he is bitter about his experiences as a Catholic (then, conversely, adds Christian concepts of reward and punishment). He is allowed to be angry/bitter at real world religion. He just shouldn't use that to justify what he does to the FR lore. Dragons are fine, elves are fine, magic is fine, heck primordial and demons are fine, but gods are an issue? Makes no sense to me. There are atheists who are happy playing clerics. If they can do that, then surely Bob can set aside his feelings about the real world God and, at the very least, not crap on the FR ones. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 22 Aug 2020 02:41:47 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 02:49:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, they have pointed the finger to us atheists since 2e with things like the Wall of the Faithless and other stuff, so I don't mind if religious people get the same treatment for a change.
Sorry, this makes no sense. I dislike the Wall as much as you (well, Idk how much you dislike it, but I outright hate it), but this pretty much is: "something wrong was done to me, so I don't mind something wrong being done to people who didn't do that to me, but have something in common with those who did this to me."
If you put it that way, it sounds wrong, yes. But, having felt bullied for so many years, I guess I'm bit bitter and see this as some form of retribution to the fans who always have justified that Wall. I shouldn't lump the people who dislike it and happen to be religious as well.
I'm sorry if I offended you in some form.
I wasn't offended myself, I found the statement itself to be offputting, that's why I addressed it. But don't worry, no offense taken. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Reconciling Relentless with established cosmology
