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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 14:53:22
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Giantcraft states that each giant huslyder, clan or tribe has a strict hierarchy in the ordning, running from et on downwards to the lowest member of the polity. It also states that in inter-tribal meetings, clan place is ignored, as each giant race or giant-kin race has their own place in the ordning.
What it doesn't say and what I am wondering about is what the status of giants who either reject their kin or have no family and live with a group of a different giant type. Do these receive an official position in the internal hierarchy of their hosts?
Specifically, I'm considering a clan of frost giants who keep many humanoid slaves, have ogre bondsmen and cyclopskin, fomorian and verbeeg household servants, shepherds and overseers. It's clear that none of the humanoid rate any kind of place in the ordning and the ogres and cyclopskin are likely many enough to be organized into their own clans, with head men who still aren't considered more than rabble by the frost giants.
But what about senior verbeeg overseers or majordomos? Do those rate a numerical designation in the hierarchy of the frost giant clan, albeit one below all the proper frost giants?
And what about someone more powerful, bigger and more valuable than many of the frost giants; such as a Cyclops* smith who can forge weapons and armour that the frost giants cannot (because the heat of a forge is too oppressive for them to be willing to stay there)?
Can such a 'giant-kin' earn a place in the clan to the point of an official numerical position, even if it is below all adult warriors in the frost giant clan?
For that matter, at what point does a giant child or juvenile rate a number to designate their place in the ordning and their clan? At birth? When they are old enough to recite their lineage? Some other childhood milestone? Or only when old enough to serve as warriors, mothers or something else useful to the clan?
And what if the cyclops smith, or someone like him, perhaps an unusual hill, mountain or stone giant, proved able to out-wrestle, out-boast and out-drink some of the smaller frost giants in a clan? Could he formally claim a higher status than them, if he demonstrated this to the satisfaction of the other giants, in the ancient and time-honored fashion?
*2e lore size, so 20' tall and 8,000 lbs., while the frost giants range from 12'4" to 23' tall and 1,200 lbs. to 14,000 lbs..
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 16:26:03
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My takeaway from Giantcraft is the the ordning is absolute. If a giant rejects it, they are considered "evil" and will receive no aid or shelter from any other true giant (giant-kin may still take them in). That also means that giant-kin are not true giants and therefore have no means of gaining a place no matter what they do. As for non-adult giants, I am sure they have their own order based on their parent's place in the adult order. That also means that kids of the "hosting" tribe has a higher rank than any visitor from a "lower class" giant speicies (i.e. if you invite a hobo into your home, your kids have a higher social standing).
Edit: fixed typo. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 24 Jul 2020 16:27:01 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 17:59:51
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| I'm inclined to agree with the absolute nature of the ordning, but there probably are some sort of honorifics for giants of other kinds within each giant community that might recognize giant-kin who have done much to support their giant community, while it probably doesn't make them equals, it might make them almost equals or give them a special place. Kind of like when a country gives a foreigner some sort of award/medal/honorific, basically making them a respected statesperson or celebrity within that country. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 18:02:40
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| I'm inclined to agree with the absolute nature of the ordning, but there probably are some sort of honorifics for giants of other kinds within each giant community that might recognize giant-kin who have done much to support their giant community, while it probably doesn't make them equals, it might make them almost equals or give them a special place. Kind of like when a country gives a foreigner some sort of award/medal/honorific, basically making them a respected statesperson or celebrity within that country. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 18:03:50
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The ordning can't be too absolute, given that it's canonical that giants (or even giant-kin) of one breed can rule over others.
Giantcraft p. 34:
quote:
In fact, outside of the Ice Spires, some verbeegs
have been known to actually claw their way
to dominion over small hill or frost giant
tribes - an obvious byproduct of their unrivaled
cunning.
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Edited by - Icelander on 24 Jul 2020 18:04:22 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 18:29:52
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Those are leaders of those tribes and not just "one of the guys". There are other instances of other races leading giants. The ordning may only apply for everyone under the leader.
I like Tom's view though. Every group tends to have some "heroes" outside of their group and may have special privileges. Maybe a "giant-friend" designation? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 19:46:16
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Leaders of giant huslyder, clans or tribes have the numeric designation et, which in formulaic recitations of lineage is applied even to the sons of Annam and Annam himself.
It's clear from Giantcraft that the numerics include the leader, not just everyone under him.
Granted, many giants seem extremely unwilling to consider 'lesser' types of giants worthy of notice, let alone giant-kin, but the story of Hartkiller as the king of all giants and the head of the ordning indicates that racial supremacy is not the only tenet of giant political and moral philosophy.
There is also the fact that giant-kin are accorded a place in giant society. They are acknowledged as kin, albeit outside of wedlock, and accounted higher than ogres or humanoids in the order of things.
Then there is the question of how a true giant is determined. If someone speaks Jotun, stands over 12' tall and claims a hill or mountain giant parent, how is the truth or falsehood of their claims determined?
What about mixed-race children? Where do human/giant or orc/giant children rate, above or below giant-kin?
How about the children of true giants and giant-kin? How plausible is it that hill giants could or would reject a hero who could eat more than they all could on the basis of purity of blood, if the person was the child of a hill giant and a massive firbolg? Or that junior frost giants would refuse to acknowledge a cyclopean giant who outmassed them twice over and could out-wrestle them all?
Basically, giant society, as described in [i][b]Giantcraft[/][/], seems to have a basis for challenges between members, but not much of a legal system to investigate disputed claims of ancestry. Isn't it inherent in the arguments for gustatory achievents as a sign of divine favour (hill giants) or wrestling as the highest virtue of a true giant (frost giants) that Annam would never bless anyone with superior ability at these things unless they were true giants?
It's at least conceivable, considering that it's described as something some giant-kin believe, i.e. that by proving they are better than the giants as their most important virtues, they will one day rise to rule over them. Obviously, 9-10' tall giant-kin aren't going to out-eat, out-drink or out-wrestle 15' or more tall giants, any more than small children do adult warriors, but a) If true giants are getting smaller as they are more generations removed from Annam, the size difference grows less in time, and b) Some giant-kin are enormous, especially the 20' tall cyclops. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 20:31:22
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| I don't remember seeing that true giants are getting smaller over time. I do remember that their lifespans are getting shorter. I am actually using that for another race: ogre-magi. They are direct descendants of Vaprak's sons so, like giants, they have extended lifespans like giants. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 15:00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I don't remember seeing that true giants are getting smaller over time.
That's my interpretation, to account for the massive variation in giant size between editions. Whenever possible, Realmslore should accommodate all published facts relating to the world, even if seemingly contradictory. So, if 12' tall frost giants and 21' tall frost giants appear in different sources, clearly, frost giants in the Realms vary between these two extremes.
In light of the fact that giants are canonically getting shorter-lived as new generations are born with less of the divine spark of Annam, I decided to use that to justify this huge size disparity. After all, being less divine and living shorter lives is easy to interpret as being less supernatural and in light of the square-cube law, giants that can move and fight as giants do need magical muscle and bone. So, the less supernatural they are, the less tall they can be.
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I do remember that their lifespans are getting shorter. I am actually using that for another race: ogre-magi. They are direct descendants of Vaprak's sons so, like giants, they have extended lifespans like giants.
Sounds reasonable. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 17:03:06
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| Where did you get the 12 foot height from? I don't have any MM newer than 2e so I checked the FR Wiki and it consistently has 21 feet for frost giants across all editions. Could that 12 foot have been a typo? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 17:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Where did you get the 12 foot height from? I don't have any MM newer than 2e so I checked the FR Wiki and it consistently has 21 feet for frost giants across all editions. Could that 12 foot have been a typo?
Gerti Orelsdottr is canonically described as just over 12' tall and not noted as an outlier among her tribe. This is because in 3e materials, male frost giants were only 15' tall. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 18:11:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Where did you get the 12 foot height from? I don't have any MM newer than 2e so I checked the FR Wiki and it consistently has 21 feet for frost giants across all editions. Could that 12 foot have been a typo?
Gerti Orelsdottr is canonically described as just over 12' tall and not noted as an outlier among her tribe. This is because in 3e materials, male frost giants were only 15' tall.
In general there are visible inconsistencies between editions in terms of creature sizes, 3E in general downsizing several monsters compared to 2E.
With Dragons it was even more visible - in 2E, Ancient Wyrms attained lower end Kaiju sizes, Red Great Wyrms having a max length of 354
feet (!) (183 feet body length, 171 tail length), to 120 feet in 3E (nearly 3 times smaller). |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 18:18:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Where did you get the 12 foot height from? I don't have any MM newer than 2e so I checked the FR Wiki and it consistently has 21 feet for frost giants across all editions. Could that 12 foot have been a typo?
Gerti Orelsdottr is canonically described as just over 12' tall and not noted as an outlier among her tribe. This is because in 3e materials, male frost giants were only 15' tall.
What a bunch of runts. Maybe that tribe just took baths in water that was too hot and they were supposed to be dry clean only. Do the later editions go back to 21 feet? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 18:48:01
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
What a bunch of runts. Maybe that tribe just took baths in water that was too hot and they were supposed to be dry clean only. Do the later editions go back to 21 feet?
5e went back to 21' tall, but I'm not sure 4e used real world measurements. Monsters were defined as size categories and no official conversion to real world units was provided. Frost Giants existed in both Large and Huge varieties in 4e, which probably encompasses roughly the size range of Gerti and similar 3e giants to the 2e and 5e 21' tall ones. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 22:52:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
What a bunch of runts. Maybe that tribe just took baths in water that was too hot and they were supposed to be dry clean only. Do the later editions go back to 21 feet?
5e went back to 21' tall, but I'm not sure 4e used real world measurements. Monsters were defined as size categories and no official conversion to real world units was provided. Frost Giants existed in both Large and Huge varieties in 4e, which probably encompasses roughly the size range of Gerti and similar 3e giants to the 2e and 5e 21' tall ones.
If it was the same as 2e, Large is up to 12' and Huge is 12+ to 25'. That sounds about right given your stated variations in height. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 18:34:22
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
If it was the same as 2e, Large is up to 12' and Huge is 12+ to 25'. That sounds about right given your stated variations in height.
Indeed, so no matter what we might feel about it, giants in the Realms clearly exist a wide size range among each type. The best explanation for that, I feel, is that the smaller giants are those furthest from their divine heritage and thus with less innate supernatural power (and thus less dramatic breaking of the square-cube law).
However, this does mean that true giants with 3e and 4e sizes are sometimes not all that larger than giant-kin, and, in fact, are much smaller than canonical Cyclops giants by 2e write-ups.
Added to which, if giants are created as characters, it's reasonable to assume that even among giants of similar height, there is similar variation in weight, build, musculature and strength as among humans, so one 15' frost giant might be 2,400 lbs. and scrawny, while another is 3,800 lbs. and bulging with muscles. Not to mention that some will be overweight, weighing far more than their fellows, but not necessarily much stronger.
What this means to me is that giants probably don't have a very rigid caste system, but instead their clan rank can fluctuate a bit as individuals display prowess at the things which underlie status in giant society.
The easiest way for giants to fit a Cyclops who is taller than they are into their worldview is that clearly that Cyclops is favoured by Annam. He might be a descendant of a divine byblow, but that doesn't detract from his achievements, certainly not if he can out-boast, out-drink, out-perform and out-wrestle genuine frost giant champions.
Sure, his standing in frost giant society would always be less than a pure-blooded giant would enjoy, but given that frost giants don't choose their leaders by birth, but by those who boast the best and back up their deeds, I can see them accepting individuals of questionable birth into their clans if they can perform deeds heroic enough. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 20:08:30
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Unfortunately giantcraft is contradictory with itself and other realmslore. In many ways it is both the best and worst FR sourcebook made.
I regard it as the best because i can do with giant society exactly what i want.
When i read all the giant sources and try to incorporate giantcraft into it i get the following vision.
Giants are unique among the realms in that their race was unified from the start, and while the elves and dwarves likely evolved a centralised and unified racial pantheon over time, the giants began with this hero worship of the rulers of the main kingdoms.
So in the beginning was Annam, and he created the giant race supposedly, or he was just the greatest of the giants and ruled over them all. Doesnt matter which. He had a large kingdom in the spine of the world.
His "sons", or greatest generals all set out to create kingdoms of their own, probably to escape his tyrannical rule because lets face it, Annam sounds like a control freak. These new kingdoms are all part of the greater Ostoria so either they declared themselves vassals of Ostoria or were forcefully subjugated.
In order to keep order, Annam needs a line of succession in case of his death and that is the Ordning. storm giants, then cloud giants, then frost giants, then fire giants, then mountain giants, then hill giants. That is the basis for the whole of giant society.
Within those groups it is those who are closest to the Paragons (taken from giantcraft and those horrible giant novels). The paragons start as the likes of Lannaxis, Grolantor, and the other named giant deities, when they die it is the remnants of their families. I would be willing to be order within giant races is based upon claims of relation to the paragon (kind of like patents of nobility in human realms but using songs and stories).
Then the war with dragons happens and the giant empire is devastated and these paragons are slain or disappear and end up deified by myth and legend.
So how does that influence the giantish society of today. All giants claim descent from Annam, whether thats true or not doesnt matter but it does reinforce the idea that birthright is important in society.
The paragons and the families have survived in some cases. The hartsvale novels mentioned a paragon of storm giants. The crown of obadai is still around and i reckon that was the regalia of Nedeheim so the paragon line there may survive in the dodkong.
The first kingdoms of Ostoria and the giantish subraces that arose from them would of course claim to be the best and strongest and therefore superior. The giantkin therefore are always second class among true giants because the true giants claim themselves to be better by birthrite and the rules of a society that vanished 30000 years ago.
Giantkin can of course be just as strong and they have their own paragon (grond peaksmasher being canon proof of that), but they typically are not as organised and therefore not able to compete to dispute this claim.
With regards to individuals. One cyclops might be stronger than many other giants but it depends upon where he lives, a cyclops likes warmer climates so frost giants are an unlikely encounter, he is more likely to be found among hill giants which means a cyclops of exceptional size could easily bully the weaker and stupid hill giants who have little more organisation that other cyclops.
In the Moonshae Isles the firbolgs reign supreme, creating a large empire (now vanished), and exiling true giants to isolated regions (Norheim), so the status quo the true giants try to enforce is not always true everywhere.
It all comes down to individuals. If you get a huge ogre with enough brains and brawn to take on a mountain giant then he can lord it over the giant. If his band of ogres is stronger than the frost giant settlement nearby then no amount of their pleading that frost giants are superior will work, but mayhaps if there are other giants nearby willing to help their true giant kindred then perhaps they will help change the situation.
I view the Ordning as a gentlemens club. The guys in the club want to keep power and prestige among themselves and hold on to the best bits of territory. The giant kin want into the club so they can claim to be gentlemen themselves, but the rules say no giantkin so they have to fight for everything.
In my version true giants are highly adaptive and so the subraces are not actually separated by genetics, they are all the same breed of giant but they quickly adapt to their surroundings so within a few generations they adapt to wherever they live. Its the only way to explain how fire giants and frost giants have survived their niche environments (one in the wake of climate change, and the other just due to the nature of volcanoes). Fire giants exist wherever there are volcanos and volcanic vents, but geography and distance often limits their access to these locations and it would be difficult to find such niche environments quick enough after their homes go dormant or extinct.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 02:56:33
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I like a lot of the ideas here, Gary.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 12:25:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I would be willing to be order within giant races is based upon claims of relation to the paragon (kind of like patents of nobility in human realms but using songs and stories).
Place in the Ordning is specifically not based on lineage and descent, as each type of giant has their own system for challenging or evaluating the worth of individual giants, based on the qualities that are most esteemed among them.
Given that size, divine spark and inborn supernatural power is important for many of these contests and giants more closely related to the gods and demigods of the past seem to be born more powerful, there is certainly a correlation between good lineage and being a huge, powerful champion good at the things esteemed in your clan, but it's not automatic.
A runt son of a frost giant Jarl has no claim on his father's title nor, indeed, high rank in the Ordning among his clan, not if he cannot wrestle like a champion, boast like a legend, revel like a lord and back up his boasts like a hero. By contrast, if a frost giant with no ancestors of note can do all of the above, he can challenge his superiors one by one and rise to en in his tribe, claiming the title of Jarl if he rules enough giants and territory. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 15:09:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I aim to please.
My big twist I left out, has anyone ever wondered why all the dwarven gods are depicted as being 15 ft tall, despite the dwarves being fiercely proud as a race.
So we have mordinsammen to refer to dwarves, what about Ordinsannam to refer to giants.
Dwarven gods are 15 feet tall because it is expected of them by their worshippers. Here is a race that is under 5 feet tall yet builds huge, columned halls with soaring ceilings and a 4,000-foot tall statue. If a dwarf wants to impress another dwarf, go big or go home (as long as it doesn't interfere with function). |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 16:57:30
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Re: the slaves... Is the Ordning meant to be "Norse/Viking" ish pagan "Thing" based? If so, slaves would rank as nothing until 2-3 or more generations after they are set free, set loose, get free, etc.
An more modern take, fitting our world better, is to let slaves rank under their Slavers rank. so Verbeeg slaves would rank straight under their Frost giant master's rank in the Ordning? |
Edited by - Starshade on 27 Jul 2020 17:00:03 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 22:19:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
Re: the slaves... Is the Ordning meant to be "Norse/Viking" ish pagan "Thing" based? If so, slaves would rank as nothing until 2-3 or more generations after they are set free, set loose, get free, etc.
Not as such, no.
Giant society has their own rules, distinct from those of any historical one. There are terms derived from Old Norse, but the society is not the same. In particular, birthright is less important than demonstrated capability at whatever pursuit a giant race believes is the measure of true worth; i.e. gustatory prowess among hill giants, boasting, heroic feats and wrestling for frost giants, arts and/or craftsmanship for stone and fire giants, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
An more modern take, fitting our world better, is to let slaves rank under their Slavers rank. so Verbeeg slaves would rank straight under their Frost giant master's rank in the Ordning?
From what I can tell, slaves are not owned by individual frost giants, but instead held by the tribe or clan. Which, in effet, means that they are under the control of the Jarl (if there is one) or whoever is ranked highest (if a smaller family not under a Jarl).
That being said, I don't believe that verbeegs or even ogres are slaves in the same way that captured dwarves, humans or orcs would be. Formally, I think it would be very hard for a verbeeg to rank above an adult frost giant in the Ordning, but I see them becoming influential nevertheless, as overseers (of ogres, cyclopskin and humanoid slaves), major-domos and stewards, doing vital administrative work that frost giants are too unorganized, boisterous and hedonistic to bother with. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 02:48:38
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With the ordning, my take is that Annam indeed created it as a tool to bring order to to the giants, or his children (4E, if core/Nethir Vale gives reasons for this, but more on it latter).
As Annam had shown signs of visible bias though, I do agree with Gary that originally Paragons/Annam's children were to rule, then (maybe even after his grandchildren or such disappeared/died), or in terms of hierarchy bellow his direct children, would come in the a bit meritocratic version of the ordning. And I think it was created as such - for a situation when Annam, or his sons were not available, for the giant society stay functional and survive.
I mean it is in character - Annam not only played favorites among his sons, he also preferred his sons over his daughters, as well as specifically sired Hartkiller to be the ruler of Ostoria, who would restore it.
This also creates an irony, and self fulfilling prophecy situation, present in so many myths (including the Norse) - due to the Hartkiller's stunted growth, other giants, following how they understood and followed the Ordning, deemed the Hartkiller unfit to rule, due to his small stature (and apparently other traits, but those weren't detailed in Giantcraft I think - maybe in the novels?)
Or that's my take.
As I mentioned 4E also mentions Annam - specifically as the ancestor of least many Primordials (seemingly all or most the Giant-ish ones, like Piranoth), and one of the first to emerge, From "Dragon 394" - "Class Acts: Runepriest":
quote:
Legends of the king’s identity abound; some claim he
was a goliath chieftain, others a stone giant despot, and
still others believe he was a fierce primordial sired by First Creator Annam.
So I think the experience with the Chaotic nature of Primordials, which contributed to their fall, motivated at least in part Annam to create the ordning, to avoid history repeating, which ultimately did in a fashion. |
Edited by - Baltas on 28 Jul 2020 03:12:59 |
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Place in the Ordning for Giants of Different Races
