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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 23:12:38
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There is another path for this. If there is ANY pantheon in the realms whose majority of people could easily take on the form of ascended dragons its the Untheric one.
Yup, I also thought, as I mentioned some posible clues on the previous page:
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
In Dragon Dragon #260, detailing the children of Bahamut and Tiamat, An-Ur (named and based after An/Anu and the city of Ur), was described Tiamat's first child, and a visibly draconic being.
(From who I think in D&D, An, Anu and Anshar probably fragmented from, or might be the Sumerian An).
With the return of Nanna-Sin and Enlil (as described in "Ashes of the Tyrant" and "The Devil You Know" by Erin M. Evan), both assumed draconic form (ie Nanna-Sin of a Dragon-Turtle, Enlil of a black scaled Dragonborn), which could be seen as simply fitting with Dragonborn, but could as well be (and I it's intentionally write so by Erin M. Evans, possibly at WoTC behest) to be them tapping into their "descent" from Tiamat.
With An-Ur, being described in the article as "the oldest of Tiamat's children. Legends say that it sprang into being from Tiamat's first breath", which is similar to Enlil being described in "On Hallowed Ground" as the "first of the Sumerian powers, son of Nammu"(Nammu being probably the same as Tiamat/an older name of her known by Sumerians.)
I do think Enlil though subsumed/merged with An, hence he took on many of his qualities, and even myths (ie being born first of Nammu, being the father of Enki, not his brother etc.)
(Which is also why I though the Mesopotamian and Draconic Tiamat are or were once the same - possibly became again one, but I maybe was wrong)
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
By the way, I'm still not convinced that several of the actual Netherese pantheon wasn't actually imported Mulan gods or gods found in the Raurin area long ago, and part of the reason that a lot of them got new names is that the corresponding gods died. We have Jergal, who easily fits Nergal (even being a god of sunsets). We have Amaunator who could easily be a fusing of Amon-Ra (as another name of Ra) with At'ar (another sun goddess), which fits somewhat with why At'ar is still around but Amaunator is gone (when Ra died, then entity that was Amaunator slowly began to break down).
Indeed, At'ar, and probably Amaunator are based in part on a real life goddess - Atar/Athtart/Attart - better known and spelt as Astarte:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte
This makes sense, as At'ar like Astarte and Ishtar is described as wild, lustful goddess, and like Astarte was seen as Ba'al Hadad's wife (and one of Set's wives among Egyptians, with Set being syncretized with Ba'al), so is is At'ar seen as the wife of the Storm God Talos (as well as in D&D, Inanna was described as Enlil's wife).
Ishtar herself, was actually identified/syncretized with Aya/Sherida (the goddess of the Sun, wife/consort of Uttu/Shamash).
It's possible after defusing from Amun-Ra, At'ar, or some part of her, became the Demon Prince Astaroth (connected to Astarte/Ishtar/Inanna, and even originally lived in Baator for a long time, like Inanna), who was described as having "Draconic Features".
(With Astaroth/At'ar possibly being able to return to power, with Garagauth being sealed...)
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Shar and Anshar of Babylonian myth sound like the same being, but not sure if Anshar was worshiped in the realms.
Thomas M. Costa did have Anshar present in the Realms in apocryphal works on Realms-L mailing list, ad connected with Shar:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150131031353/http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0204c&L=realms-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=7268
quote:
Originally, Gilgeam was a fair, if somewhat vain and tyrannical, king,
but as the centuries passed and Unther declined, the people's hatred grew and Gilgeam went mad. He became cruel and jealous of the other powers. As the era of the Second Untheric Empire came to a close, Gilgeam managed to drive the remaining Untheric manifestations, Anshar and Druaga, from Realmspace, except for Ramman and Ishtar/Isis - who were too popular to persecute - and the reemerging Tiamat, long an enemy of the other Untheric gods.
quote:
Other powers using or suspected of using the names of the
Untheric powers as aliases include: Anhur [Ramman, Ramatep, and Rumathep]; Gargauth [Druaga]; Geb [Nin-Hursag]; Isis [Inanna and Ishtar]; Kossuth [Girru, an alias largely manipulated by the church in Thay]; Set [Gilgeam and Typhon - a monstrous power of myth]; Shar [Anshar]; Silvanus - in conjunction with Mielikki [Ki]; Velsharoon [Nergal, an alias previously used and
abandoned by both Jergal and Myrkul], and lastly, Horus-Re, who is thought to be considering the adoption of Anu, Enlil, and/or Utu as aliases.)
I still think though Bahamut (at least in the Realmsspace, or how we know him) quite probably is a fusion of Marduk and Xymor |
Edited by - Baltas on 01 Aug 2020 14:39:19 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 18:38:19
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Hmm, I like that idea of Gargauth posing as Druaga. Druaga would seem to make a really good god for "binders", as he seems to be about sharing the souls of people, and Gargauth has some pretty extensive knowledge of vestiges (having trapped Astaroth, etc...).
On Velsharoon as Nergal, I've been working on a storyline that Velsharoon helps restore and courts Ereshkigal while in Abeir (as the Isle of Sahu, also known as the Isle of the Necromancer Kings, goes to Abeir in my thoughts). Him representing death magic and her representing a death goddess with a kingdom of the dead. Thus, he's not there to be an arbiter or ruler, but rather he "studies the art of necromancy" while his lover handles the burden of judging, protecting, etc... the realm of the dead. Meanwhile, he's also still an ally of Mystra, fulfilling much the same role (i.e. study and expand knowledge of necromancy). Main point to that would be he might not adopt the other name and rather openly be trying to jump pantheons. Given that he was well known in the Unapproachable East and Old Empires, I see them being more accepting of him. When he helps her return, other death goddesses return to some other pantheons ("Kiaransalee" to the drow, a being known as "Heleshkigal" to my metahel pantheon, etc..), but whether these are linked or simply happenstances the Torilian refugees are unclear. Meanwhile, the gods use access to a goddess of death to restore certain beings by helping them find their spirits in the afterlife. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 11:13:34
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I think Gargauth would also know well Druaga from his time as an Archdevil - Druaga is a resident of Baator, and connected to Ahriman (being based on Druj, also known as Drauga):
https://iranicaonline.org/articles/druj
Tied to the Old Empires, Gargauth is also stated to search through Imaskari ruins, to replicate their God Wall, just to banish wall of all gods from Realmspace, but himself.
With Astaroth, I wonder though if Gargauth being imprisoned for a century, I wonder if it allowed him to be properly resurrected in the Wells of Darkness (as he was stopped from that by Gargauth's hellfire).
And as I mentioned before, I wonder if Astaroth, At'ar and Inanna being on some level the same being, or Astaroth fragmenting from Inanna (as the name Astaroth/Astoreth, was originally just the Hebrew spelling of the name Astarte). Inanna even has (or at least had) a realm in the 9 Hells, and Astaroth posed as a devil, and became even the Treasures of Hell, before fleeing back to the Abyss, and there he was slain by Gargauth, and who set Astaroth vestige set on hellfire, to prevent his plan for resurrection...
(While Astaroth seems unrelated to Inanna, sans name, Inanna also become the goddess of divine knowledge and laws via her stealing of the mes from Enki, of fate/prophecy via her connection with/having the title of Shimti.)
Astaroth forseeing his death, and planning on his resurrection via a deal with Ahazu, is similar to how Inanna/Ishtar forsaw she will die during her journey to the Underworld, and prepared with Ninshubur a plan of her own resurrection. Ahazu himself has a name derived from Akkadian, and a latter demon who took his name from Akkadian.
With Velsharoon, I guess the body Aglarondans got, was of Mellifleur's form - which I guess Velsharoon used mantained and controlled Toril to keep eye on it while he was on Abeir, and/or possibly intentionally allowed the "Mellifleur-avatar" to be killed, so that his enemies thought he was destroyed. |
Edited by - Baltas on 02 Aug 2020 12:58:35 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 13:40:54
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I rather dislike the idea that Mellifleur and Velsharoon are the same deity. They seem to be more neighbours than the same god, with Mellifleur ruling the Dead City of Hopelorn and Velsharoon claiming the moldering volcanic mausoleum beneath, known as the Forsaken Crypt.
In the Aglarond situation above, Big V either swapped places with the Simbul, or it's a false-flag; Velsharoon's divine spark is actually using some poor lich as a phylactery - there's some poor undead wizard there slowly having his unliving body warped and twisted into the Lich-Lord's new body as Velsharoon muses on what to do with the fragment of the Simbul - and hence Mystra - that he's managed to get his hands on...
Or maybe it's something more sinister - not satisfied with just that, Mellifleur and Velsharoon are scheming in the cold wastes of Gehenna's deepest layers, using the Spellplague and the emergence of Abeir for a truly awe-inspiring plot; the creation of a grand planetary phylactery that not only serves as the soul hub of the multiverse's many liches, but also a form of gestalt hivemind that has the knowledge of all its component souls...and allows prospective liches a risk-free ride to lichdom. In doing so, the lich deities' powers are increased, bit by bit... |
Edited by - LordofBones on 02 Aug 2020 13:43:36 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 13:46:09
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I rather dislike the idea that Mellifleur and Velsharoon are the same deity. They seem to be more neighbours than the same god, with Mellifleur ruling the Dead City of Hopelorn and Velsharoon claiming the moldering volcanic mausoleum beneath, known as the Forsaken Crypt.
In the Aglarond situation above, Big V either swapped places with the Simbul, or it's a false-flag; Velsharoon's divine spark is actually using some poor lich as a phylactery - there's some poor undead wizard there slowly having his unliving body warped and twisted into the Lich-Lord's new body as Velsharoon muses on what to do with the fragment of the Simbul - and hence Mystra - that he's managed to get his hands on...
Or maybe it's something more sinister - not satisfied with just that, Mellifleur and Velsharoon are scheming in the cold wastes of Gehenna's deepest layers, using the Spellplague and the emergence of Abeir for a truly awe-inspiring plot; the creation of a grand planetary phylactery that not only serves as the soul hub of the multiverse's many liches, but also a form of gestalt hivemind that has the knowledge of all its component souls.
Oh no, what I (and slevyas) agree Mellifleur and Velsharoon are separate beings...or at least were, with Velsharoon simply (on Toril at least) having subsumed Mellifleur, with my idea being he latter used his form as an extra form, and this avatar/aspect was that was reported to had been killed in 1425 DR, and the body that was secured by Aglarondans was that. Of course, it could like you suggested though. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 19:04:47
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I rather dislike the idea that Mellifleur and Velsharoon are the same deity. They seem to be more neighbours than the same god, with Mellifleur ruling the Dead City of Hopelorn and Velsharoon claiming the moldering volcanic mausoleum beneath, known as the Forsaken Crypt.
In the Aglarond situation above, Big V either swapped places with the Simbul, or it's a false-flag; Velsharoon's divine spark is actually using some poor lich as a phylactery - there's some poor undead wizard there slowly having his unliving body warped and twisted into the Lich-Lord's new body as Velsharoon muses on what to do with the fragment of the Simbul - and hence Mystra - that he's managed to get his hands on...
Or maybe it's something more sinister - not satisfied with just that, Mellifleur and Velsharoon are scheming in the cold wastes of Gehenna's deepest layers, using the Spellplague and the emergence of Abeir for a truly awe-inspiring plot; the creation of a grand planetary phylactery that not only serves as the soul hub of the multiverse's many liches, but also a form of gestalt hivemind that has the knowledge of all its component souls...and allows prospective liches a risk-free ride to lichdom. In doing so, the lich deities' powers are increased, bit by bit...
What I've done with this is the idea that "Mellifleur" is a collective deity. He "feeds" information such that wizards perform a lich ritual that turns them into immortals, but there's a trick in said ritual that makes the person's name "disappear" and "Mellifleur" replaces it as the name of the arisen being. This helps explain the multiple instances with different gods being drawn upon at different times. Thus, on Toril, some archmage of Narfell cast the ritual and rose up as "Mellifleur" just prior to Karsus deciding he could do something similar (and at the time that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were themselves ascending). Larloch was drawn to study this ritual with his enclave of Jiksidur, which is why his enclave was in Narfell at the time of Karsus' Folly. Larloch unlocked the ability to become a special kind of lich by studying the ritual, but after Karsus' Folly he did not try to become a god.
Time passes, and Velsharoon is trying to uncover the secrets of immortality and godhood after his encounter with the athora. He uncovers a secret about why Zhengyi wants to conquer Vaasa and Damara, and he secretly aids Gareth and company against his former ally. Mellifleur is cast down into the body of a lich during the ToT. Velsharoon hunts down the avatar of Mellifleur, and in its weakened state entraps it within its phylactery. Velsharoon also parleys with Larloch, who knows of the enmity of Szass Tam and Velsharoon, and they come to an agreement. Velsharoon agrees to some services for Larloch (one of which is to allow a conversation with the captured sentience of Mellifleur). In return, Velsharoon is given some of Larloch's notes on his study of Mellifleur's ritual. The ToT ends, and Mellifleur is still entrapped (Ao chooses not to restore him). Cutting to the chase, Velsharoon uncovers a method to rise without being overwritten by the Mellifleur collective (involving a lot of components like blood from the Karsestone, the phylactery of Mellifleur, some of Tiamat's blood with remnants of Orcus' destroyed wand in it secretly taken after Gareth and company do their thing, etc...).
During his time as a god on Toril, he is approached by Savras, who tells him that if he is to survive, he should hide Mellifleur's phylactery in the Tower Terrible in Soorenar (Velsharoon's mortal abode). He doesn't say why or what's going to happen, because Savras himself doesn't know. Then comes the Spellplague, and the tower terrible and portions of Soorenar are sent to Abeir, along with Dweomerheart. Mellifleur (in lesser avatar form) is freed from his phylactery, and Velsharoon is entrapped in it. However, Ao's decree on the lesser avatar form of Mellifleur was never removed, and thus he is entrapped on the prime. Also, his form is infected with bluefire, and he is literally burning through host bodies. He seeks to acquire a portion of the Athora to stabilize himself, but he ends up in a fight with the Simbul. She wins.
Meanwhile, on Abeir, Savras is riding in the body of Zulkir Yaphyll Sirtula (who at the command of Szass Tam "split herself in two and cast a portion of herself forward in time and encountered the spellplague") and Leira is riding in the body of Zulkir Mythrella'a (who had faked her own death with a spell that made people think her name was Mythrellan). They come to Soorenar and seek out a young woman named Mimuay Tavai, a rather morbid daughter of Zulkir Lauzoril Tavai nearing her thirties with a natural talent for necromancy. They require her aid, as it has been foretold that she will free Velsharoon, and with the return of the god of necromancy, other gods can be awakened and resurrected.... and hopefully the mother of magic can be saved. Suddenly, the reason that Mystra forbid her chosen killing the red wizards became all too clear.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 20:16:03
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I really doubt any of these gods has a foothold in Tymanther or Unther post-SS, tho. I mean, in Unther I can see Gilgeam instauring monotheism to him as the state law, with all other faiths prosecuted.
While in Tymanther, dragonborn are having problems getting used to Bahamut, Enlil and Tiamat (whose cult is illegal there, according to the LFR) to be open to other gods (Azuth and Asmodeus being an exception for services rendered). And of the significant human minority living in Tymanther, I see the more active (in the region) Mulhorandi gods accaparing that worship for themselves.
I can see Enlil, Tiamat and perhaps Hoar and Bahamut (as Marduk) trying to gain a foothold in new Unther, tho. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Aug 2020 20:17:01 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 21:32:02
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
During his time as a god on Toril, he is approached by Savras, who tells him that if he is to survive, he should hide Mellifleur's phylactery in the Tower Terrible in Soorenar (Velsharoon's mortal abode). He doesn't say why or what's going to happen, because Savras himself doesn't know. Then comes the Spellplague, and the tower terrible and portions of Soorenar are sent to Abeir, along with Dweomerheart. Mellifleur (in lesser avatar form) is freed from his phylactery, and Velsharoon is entrapped in it. However, Ao's decree on the lesser avatar form of Mellifleur was never removed, and thus he is entrapped on the prime. Also, his form is infected with bluefire, and he is literally burning through host bodies. He seeks to acquire a portion of the Athora to stabilize himself, but he ends up in a fight with the Simbul. She wins.
Meanwhile, on Abeir, Savras is riding in the body of Zulkir Yaphyll Sirtula (who at the command of Szass Tam "split herself in two and cast a portion of herself forward in time and encountered the spellplague") and Leira is riding in the body of Zulkir Mythrella'a (who had faked her own death with a spell that made people think her name was Mythrellan). They come to Soorenar and seek out a young woman named Mimuay Tavai, a rather morbid daughter of Zulkir Lauzoril Tavai nearing her thirties with a natural talent for necromancy. They require her aid, as it has been foretold that she will free Velsharoon, and with the return of the god of necromancy, other gods can be awakened and resurrected.... and hopefully the mother of magic can be saved. Suddenly, the reason that Mystra forbid her chosen killing the red wizards became all too clear.
Yeah, this actually work much better than my idea.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I really doubt any of these gods has a foothold in Tymanther or Unther post-SS, tho. I mean, in Unther I can see Gilgeam instauring monotheism to him as the state law, with all other faiths prosecuted.
While in Tymanther, dragonborn are having problems getting used to Bahamut, Enlil and Tiamat (whose cult is illegal there, according to the LFR) to be open to other gods (Azuth and Asmodeus being an exception for services rendered). And of the significant human minority living in Tymanther, I see the more active (in the region) Mulhorandi gods accaparing that worship for themselves.
I can see Enlil, Tiamat and perhaps Hoar and Bahamut (as Marduk) trying to gain a foothold in new Unther, tho.
Well it really depends - we mostly discussed other gods using aliases of Untheri gods (ie Nergal and Velsharoon), or some being tied.
I think it is though probable Untheri in Tymanther would what to return to Old Gods - their father god Enlil returned, as did the great hero god Marduk - along with the fact Untheri were oppressed long for various, alien forces, which probably sources the memory of Mulhorand and their gods, especially that many not exactly liked them even before the Spellplague
With Untheri in Unther proper, if Gilgeam (or the god who pretends to be him) will as tyrannical as in past, he will probably start to incite as much opposition, and people fleeing to Tymanther.
With (the resurrected) Astaroth, and At'ar I though more as tying them or either in with Inanna, (and Astaroth working with the possible cult as At'ar among Bedne), but Astaroth/At'ar could also try to be an alternative to Isis, especially among more Mulhorand-disliking Untheri, if to try to regain more deific power, due to Gargauth possibly wanting to repeat history to regain his own worship. |
Edited by - Baltas on 02 Aug 2020 21:58:58 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 22:20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I really doubt any of these gods has a foothold in Tymanther or Unther post-SS, tho. I mean, in Unther I can see Gilgeam instauring monotheism to him as the state law, with all other faiths prosecuted.
While in Tymanther, dragonborn are having problems getting used to Bahamut, Enlil and Tiamat (whose cult is illegal there, according to the LFR) to be open to other gods (Azuth and Asmodeus being an exception for services rendered). And of the significant human minority living in Tymanther, I see the more active (in the region) Mulhorandi gods accaparing that worship for themselves.
I can see Enlil, Tiamat and perhaps Hoar and Bahamut (as Marduk) trying to gain a foothold in new Unther, tho.
On the Untherans worshipping Mulhorandi gods. Weren't the Mulhorandi working as overseers over the Untherans in Abeir? There might be some enmity. Just a thought.
On the other gods, that's more my homebrew areas. I had some ideas up for some of them returning in lesser avatar form (i.e. occupying a mortal) in the Shaar in Peleverai and basically helping the humans/elves/crintri/centaurs/wemics survive against Shyr. Oh, and a lot of them die doing so (i.e. the gods die). I know I'm having Ki return and sacrifice herself. I want to have Ishtar return and stay. I want Inanna and Ramman to return and lead some humans back to the ruins of Chessenta while in Abeir, to transform one of the more militant cities that left, with them continuing to rule as "god-kings" via living in mortal hosts. I want Ereshkigal back too. Others, not sure. Likely several come back and die. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Aug 2020 22:29:44 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 22:21:35
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Oh, this presents an interesting situation. When I was talking about the Tymantheran humans, I was talking of the minority of humans living in Tymanther pre-SS, that according to the LFR regional adventures set in the area are mostly of Mulhorandi descent and live around Ruinspoke. They may have maintained their worship of their gods alive freely, unlike their compatriots living in High Imaskar, where the worship of the Mulhorandi pantheon was outlawed.
This will give us an interesting contrast with the returned Untheri, who may hate the Mulhorandi not only for the things they did before the Spellplague, but also for the things they did while on Abeir.
However, I can't see the Vayemniri happy with the idea of the Untheri trying to bring all of their pantheons to their homeland. At least not in the current yeara. Perhaps that vision will change in 50 years or so. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Aug 2020 22:28:00 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 23:40:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Oh, this presents an interesting situation. When I was talking about the Tymantheran humans, I was talking of the minority of humans living in Tymanther pre-SS, that according to the LFR regional adventures set in the area are mostly of Mulhorandi descent and live around Ruinspoke. They may have maintained their worship of their gods alive freely, unlike their compatriots living in High Imaskar, where the worship of the Mulhorandi pantheon was outlawed.
This will give us an interesting contrast with the returned Untheri, who may hate the Mulhorandi not only for the things they did before the Spellplague, but also for the things they did while on Abeir.
However, I can't see the Vayemniri happy with the idea of the Untheri trying to bring all of their pantheons to their homeland. At least not in the current yeara. Perhaps that vision will change in 50 years or so.
Yeah, that does bring some interesting antagonism within Tymanther, even if its just an undercurrent. Within Tymanther, I could see the worship of Enlil and Bahamut both excelling, as well as an increased worship of Azuth amongst spellcasters and worship of Selune as well.
If you don't mind me going off a little bit to discuss what I'm doing in the Shaar area (in the area near the land rise where Peleverai was), as I said, I see Inanna and Ramman coming back and leaving for Chessenta (city of Akanax). I want Ishtar back in Peleverai and surrounding lands as a goddess of love and rivers. I also want a little known Shaar god in Peleverai who is a weather god named Khass, but also Khassanu and Khassuran. Is he Enlil? Anu? Assuran? Talos? Who knows. Other folks will wonder if Ishtar is really Isis or really Eldath, and either of those options might be true (just to note, Ishtar left Unther long ago, but Eldath was a goddess confined to the prime material prior to the Time of Troubles.... kind of like an Untheric Manifestation who is maybe chased out of Unther by Gilgeam).
I'd like there to be a continuation of the great rift that separates the "eastern shaar" from the "far eastern shaar", and they refer to this as "Ki's Cleft". This is because when Grumbar was "filling in" the Shaar on the Toril side, Ki was on the other side trying to hold the land together as it transferred back. From those watching the shenanigans, it appeared that Ki was holding the land together through sheer will as it cracked beneath her legs and she was slowly doing a "split". Then, as the earthquakes stopped, she fell in and disappeared. Why do I want this? A) the underchasm wasn't a horrible idea, it was just too damn big. B) it creates a barrier to transportation and a danger area in coming from the old empires to the Shaar C) it gives a "new frontier" for dwarves to expand into. I'd also like there to be a strange effect in this area of increased fertility in this area. This draws those who want to have children to "Ki's Cleft" to try and become pregnant. It also means that the savage beasties in the area also reproduce quickly, so taming this land won't be easy. The dwarves may see this as a blessed land, and some may even offer up praises to Ki (who is after all a goddess of the land and nature), but these prayers see only weak responses. However, possibly some priestesses of Mielikki have begun to show up in the area with a heresy that "Ki" is Mielik"ki", and their rangers are serving as "guides" to caravans in the dangers of this "new land" (Toril being new to those returning from Abeir, and the Shaar being "new" to those who have only known the underchasm the last century).
On the other Untheric gods (Girru, Utu, Nergal), I'd prefer Nergal to have not come back at all even on Abeir (thus the return of Ereshkigal, who was "betrayed" by her husband, and so she's taken up with Velsharoon). I say this also because I think there's a link between Nergal and Jergal, and Jergal was still in Toril. Girru (fire) and Utu (sun), I'd prefer them having died taking on the forces of Shyr in some valiant and meaningful way, and maybe making Karshimis think twice. Nanna-sin had his body on Toril so he didn't come back on Abeir, and same with Marduk/Bahamut. Ereshkigal will be a death goddess who has black wings, has returned from the land of Fate, and I plan to give her a link to Ravens (if you see the obvious links to the Raven Queen, that's the idea... not to outright state it, but to hint that she might be the Raven Queen and that MAYBE that goddess was known in Toril long ago). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Aug 2020 00:05:53 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 23:59:56
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By the way, Ki's Cleft would be filled with my idea of Abeiran Trolls (as in big "ogre" like stony skinned creatures that get petrified by sunlight). So, crossing the area during daylight is "safer". Being stuck in Ki's Cleft after dark becomes a danger. These beings do NOT like humans because on Abeir humans have hunted them down during the day and killed their tribes when they couldn't defend themselves. Many of them retreat far into underdark tunnels where sunlight can't reach them so that they don't have to change. However, maybe they heal via "stonesleep", and so those who are wounded often seek out ways to survive on the surface for a day. Maybe periodically they HAVE to experience "stonesleep" or they'll simply go crazy.
Oh, and these Abeiran trolls may really not like bridges that cross Ki's Cleft and may periodically attack them and those who defend them... unless of course they are paid off with a "toll" for those who crossed during the daytime.
Also living amongst these Abeiran trolls may be some less noble Abeiran gargoyles (I've talked about them previously, but picture some less than noble Disney Gargoyles). There would also be fey in the form of cave hags (some kind of hag-like beings with powers of rock and stone, etc..). Note, I say hag-like because they may not be "fey hags", but they may be a race with a single gender that uses some foul ritual to reproduce. Torilians may have given them the name because they "seem like hags".
Working with the cave hags, darklings are moving into the area, via some portal that exists (a fey crossroad that has come into being). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Aug 2020 00:41:09 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 12:01:24
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Hmm with Eldath, I would think have doubts if she is Ishtar, as she seems to have been originally a fey or elven power, as I discussed here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19123&whichpage=9#508367
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19123&whichpage=10#508374
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19123&whichpage=10#508440
It is possible Ishtar merged with Eldath/Sarula Iliene at some point, possibly even before her "leaving" Unther (hence the connection to rivers). Eldath portfolio of peace, could be result of a reversion of Ishtar's portfolio of war, especially that "On Hallowed Ground" mentions that:
quote:
The power herself, born from the Sumerian goddess Inanna, always appears as a beautiful woman, and wherever she moves through her realm, a carpet of flowers and grass springs up behind her. Despite being the goddess of war, Ishtar engenders life by her very existence and advocates war only when it furthers the cause of life.
With Khass, it's an interesting idea, especially tying him to Assuran, as the Old Greybox, had Assuran to be stated to be in general worshiped in south Faerun.
I though Assuran himself could have started out as an aspect of Enlil, embodying his aspect as the harsh dispenser of justice (but originally retaining his weather god characteristics), especially that Assur/Ashur started as essentially a regional variant of Enlil (up to having Ninlil as a wife, and Ninurta and Zababa being described as Assur's sons), before Assur started to be more identified with Anshar. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 13:54:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Hmm with Eldath, I would think have doubts if she is Ishtar, as she seems to have been originally a fey or elven power, as I discussed here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19123&whichpage=9#508367
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19123&whichpage=10#508374
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19123&whichpage=10#508440
It is possible Ishtar merged with Eldath/Sarula Iliene at some point, possibly even before her "leaving" Unther (hence the connection to rivers). Eldath portfolio of peace, could be result of a reversion of Ishtar's portfolio of war, especially that "On Hallowed Ground" mentions that:
quote:
The power herself, born from the Sumerian goddess Inanna, always appears as a beautiful woman, and wherever she moves through her realm, a carpet of flowers and grass springs up behind her. Despite being the goddess of war, Ishtar engenders life by her very existence and advocates war only when it furthers the cause of life.
With Khass, it's an interesting idea, especially tying him to Assuran, as the Old Greybox, had Assuran to be stated to be in general worshiped in south Faerun.
I though Assuran himself could have started out as an aspect of Enlil, embodying his aspect as the harsh dispenser of justice (but originally retaining his weather god characteristics), especially that Assur/Ashur started as essentially a regional variant of Enlil (up to having Ninlil as a wife, and Ninurta and Zababa being described as Assur's sons), before Assur started to be more identified with Anshar.
To note, Inanna and Ishtar are seemingly two distinct gods in the realms (unlike our world where they are repeatedly conflated). We don't know much about Inanna, other than there are hints that Inanna's portfolios were taken over by Loviatar in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook, just as there are hints that Cyric has Nergal's/Ereshkigal's realm. Ishtar is portrayed as a much more peaceful, good, and less "law oriented" than Inanna is portrayed as (of course, at the time of this portrayal, she's technically being played by Isis). She has no warlike portfolios and is just a goddess of rivers and love. Still for some reason, she is chased out of Unther by Gilgeam and basically tells Isis "hey protect my people, I have to leave or Gilgeam's going to kill me... he won't dare attack you and piss off your whole pantheon". To note, Eldath's worship was perhaps strongest in the lands near Unther and to the west of the Sea of Fallen Stars (and IN the Sea of Fallen Stars, where she's a goddess of the water).
Now, do I need Ishtar and Eldath to be the same being? Absolutely not. However, its very easy to note Eldath having to be in the world as essentially a "manifestation" (avatar like being stuck in the world) prior to the ToT. this works well with her being "run out by Gilgeam".
Similarly, Mielikki is ALSO stuck in the world as a "manifestation" prior to the ToT in the northern areas around the Netherese….which could be something that might be linkable to the goddess Ki... almost like worship of Ki was brought north in the form of Jannath, and then when Ki "dies" in the orcgate wars somehow she transfers her portfolios to Chauntea, but somehow Mielikki assumed control of the "body" that is the manifestation. It could be an interesting storyline if the tomb of Ki had been found and looted by priests of Mielikki in another crystal sphere, and some kind of divine ritual used by them to allow Mielikki to come to Toril using Ki's "godflesh". In fact, seeing as how Loviatar is from the same pantheon, perhaps that's how SHE arrived in world (using Inanna's godflesh)… and perhaps Kiputtyto (who was later subsumed by Talona) did the same with the godflesh of Ereshkigal. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 14:56:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Oh, this presents an interesting situation. When I was talking about the Tymantheran humans, I was talking of the minority of humans living in Tymanther pre-SS, that according to the LFR regional adventures set in the area are mostly of Mulhorandi descent and live around Ruinspoke. They may have maintained their worship of their gods alive freely, unlike their compatriots living in High Imaskar, where the worship of the Mulhorandi pantheon was outlawed.
This will give us an interesting contrast with the returned Untheri, who may hate the Mulhorandi not only for the things they did before the Spellplague, but also for the things they did while on Abeir.
However, I can't see the Vayemniri happy with the idea of the Untheri trying to bring all of their pantheons to their homeland. At least not in the current yeara. Perhaps that vision will change in 50 years or so.
Well yes, there probably will be some conflicts between Mulhorandi and Untheri, although possibly the worshipers of Isis could work to keep the role as peacemakers, if I would say to a limited degree.
With Mulhorandi though, as you stated Dragoborn gave full tolerance to Mulhorandi to worship their gods.
Mulhorandi gods now present political leadership of another country, while all or pretty much all Untheric gods are opposed to Tiamat and Gilgeam, which would make the Untheri gods, along with the fact Bahamut/Marduk, Enlil and Nana-Sin (now immortal, but fought for Tymather) being part of that pantheon, would be I think contribute in to being accepted and even popular among Dragonborn, if it wouldn't be universal.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To note, Inanna and Ishtar are seemingly two distinct gods in the realms (unlike our world where they are repeatedly conflated). We don't know much about Inanna, other than there are hints that Inanna's portfolios were taken over by Loviatar in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook, just as there are hints that Cyric has Nergal's/Ereshkigal's realm. Ishtar is portrayed as a much more peaceful, good, and less "law oriented" than Inanna is portrayed as (of course, at the time of this portrayal, she's technically being played by Isis). She has no warlike portfolios and is just a goddess of rivers and love. Still for some reason, she is chased out of Unther by Gilgeam and basically tells Isis "hey protect my people, I have to leave or Gilgeam's going to kill me... he won't dare attack you and piss off your whole pantheon". To note, Eldath's worship was perhaps strongest in the lands near Unther and to the west of the Sea of Fallen Stars (and IN the Sea of Fallen Stars, where she's a goddess of the water).
Now, do I need Ishtar and Eldath to be the same being? Absolutely not. However, its very easy to note Eldath having to be in the world as essentially a "manifestation" (avatar like being stuck in the world) prior to the ToT. this works well with her being "run out by Gilgeam".
Similarly, Mielikki is ALSO stuck in the world as a "manifestation" prior to the ToT in the northern areas around the Netherese….which could be something that might be linkable to the goddess Ki... almost like worship of Ki was brought north in the form of Jannath, and then when Ki "dies" in the orcgate wars somehow she transfers her portfolios to Chauntea, but somehow Mielikki assumed control of the "body" that is the manifestation. It could be an interesting storyline if the tomb of Ki had been found and looted by priests of Mielikki in another crystal sphere, and some kind of divine ritual used by them to allow Mielikki to come to Toril using Ki's "godflesh". In fact, seeing as how Loviatar is from the same pantheon, perhaps that's how SHE arrived in world (using Inanna's godflesh)… and perhaps Kiputtyto (who was later subsumed by Talona) did the same with the godflesh of Ereshkigal.
Well good point on Inanna and Ishtar, from what I searched, they aren't directly connected in the Realms.
Still I think Eldatj has at least also elven/fey roots (ie the name Eldath sharing the similarity and probably etymology with "Ondath" - "Peace", Eldath being first noted to be worshiped in elven founded cities - Ondathel, Cormanthor/Myth Drannor and especially Myth Nantar - were Eldath worship was arguably first noted, Eldath's connection to Nymphs and Naiads, with shrines to Eldath at Myrloch Lake in Moonshae Isles preserved and protected by nereids, and finally the very similar Sarula Iliene (a member of both Seldarine and Seelie court), being active in the Realms when Eldath disappeared. More details in the comments I linked).
With Mielikki using the manifestation, "godflesh" of Ki to manifest is a very interesting idea (which would indeed tie in and explain her and Eldath making home on the material plane), with Inanna's and Kiputtyto perhaps doing the same. If I guess Loviatar managed to circumcise being stuck on Toril, if maybe due to the Dark Tree ascending. |
Edited by - Baltas on 03 Aug 2020 15:12:56 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 17:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
With Mulhorandi though, as you stated Dragoborn gave full tolerance to Mulhorandi to worship their gods.
Mulhorandi gods now present political leadership of another country, while all or pretty much all Untheric gods are opposed to Tiamat and Gilgeam, which would make the Untheri gods, along with the fact Bahamut/Marduk, Enlil and Nana-Sin (now immortal, but fought for Tymather) being part of that pantheon, would be I think contribute in to being accepted and even popular among Dragonborn, if it wouldn't be universal.
I wouldn't say that the Vayemniri gave "full tolerance" to their worship. They just don't made that worship illegal. It isn't a legally-backed worship, however, unlike the cult of Enlil or the cult of Bahamut. If the dragonborn publicly show violent intolerant behavior against Mulhorandi gods' worshipers, the Vayemniri authorities may not consider that a crime punishable by law. Heck, this even applies to the dragonborn followers of Bahamut, even when the Platinum Cadre is a religious institution recognized by the Thymaran government.
I don't see the dragonborn tolerating open worship of the Mulhorandi gods in Djerad Thymar or Djerad Kenthendi, although people may be allowed to worship their gods in private, as long as this doesn't upset some clan elder or other authority. But, out there in the rural, frontier towns? The Vayemniri wouldn't mind. It's just "maunthreki doing maunthreki things". And the other religions active in the area have benefited from this stance. The Platinum Cadre built a temple to Bahamut (of all gods) in Ruinspoke, for instance, way before Tarhun recognized the Platinum Cadre as a government-authorized religious institution (for services rendered during the ash giant invasion of 1479 DR).
As for the popularity, I do agree with you. I can see the Untheri gods becoming accepted by the dragonborn in maybe a generation or two. It would depend on the political stance the Mulhorandi rulers take about Tymanther, and how the war with Unther goes. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 20:59:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
With Mulhorandi though, as you stated Dragoborn gave full tolerance to Mulhorandi to worship their gods.
Mulhorandi gods now present political leadership of another country, while all or pretty much all Untheric gods are opposed to Tiamat and Gilgeam, which would make the Untheri gods, along with the fact Bahamut/Marduk, Enlil and Nana-Sin (now immortal, but fought for Tymather) being part of that pantheon, would be I think contribute in to being accepted and even popular among Dragonborn, if it wouldn't be universal.
I wouldn't say that the Vayemniri gave "full tolerance" to their worship. They just don't made that worship illegal. It isn't a legally-backed worship, however, unlike the cult of Enlil or the cult of Bahamut. If the dragonborn publicly show violent intolerant behavior against Mulhorandi gods' worshipers, the Vayemniri authorities may not consider that a crime punishable by law. Heck, this even applies to the dragonborn followers of Bahamut, even when the Platinum Cadre is a religious institution recognized by the Thymaran government.
I don't see the dragonborn tolerating open worship of the Mulhorandi gods in Djerad Thymar or Djerad Kenthendi, although people may be allowed to worship their gods in private, as long as this doesn't upset some clan elder or other authority. But, out there in the rural, frontier towns? The Vayemniri wouldn't mind. It's just "maunthreki doing maunthreki things". And the other religions active in the area have benefited from this stance. The Platinum Cadre built a temple to Bahamut (of all gods) in Ruinspoke, for instance, way before Tarhun recognized the Platinum Cadre as a government-authorized religious institution (for services rendered during the ash giant invasion of 1479 DR).
As for the popularity, I do agree with you. I can see the Untheri gods becoming accepted by the dragonborn in maybe a generation or two. It would depend on the political stance the Mulhorandi rulers take about Tymanther, and how the war with Unther goes.
It does bring up a question of HOW will Mulhorand view Tymanther. I bring it up because wasn't Tymanchebar an anomaly? The Mulhorandi may have seen more dragonborn that were servants/soldiers of the dragon lords than they saw of Vayemniri. That's something worth thinking about.
Sidebar: BTW, on the High Imaskar front and my homebrew in the shaar revolving around Peleverai, I picture the "refugee" Imaskari hearing of a minor magocracy appearing in the Shaar and seeking a new home there. I see the returned Torilians (who know nothing of Deep Imaskar or High Imaskar) judging these folk as "wizard folk like us" and tentatively accepting them and allowing them to take up residence in the old caves of the Cliffside City of Peleverai, which is in the gorge that the River Shaar came from out of the side of the landrise. The humans of Toril have built another city at the top of the gorge to take advantage of the territory for farming, cattle raising, so the cliffside city is used mostly by the Crintri and their drow slaves... who don't care for the High Imaskari refugees that have shown up.
Also, its been discovered that the water source for the river Shaar was not JUST the riftlake from the great rift, and there's SOMETHING in the Underdark between the great rift and Peleverai that sourced the river even when they were on Abeir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 22:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It does bring up a question of HOW will Mulhorand view Tymanther. I bring it up because wasn't Tymanchebar an anomaly? The Mulhorandi may have seen more dragonborn that were servants/soldiers of the dragon lords than they saw of Vayemniri. That's something worth thinking about.
Sidebar: BTW, on the High Imaskar front and my homebrew in the shaar revolving around Peleverai, I picture the "refugee" Imaskari hearing of a minor magocracy appearing in the Shaar and seeking a new home there. I see the returned Torilians (who know nothing of Deep Imaskar or High Imaskar) judging these folk as "wizard folk like us" and tentatively accepting them and allowing them to take up residence in the old caves of the Cliffside City of Peleverai, which is in the gorge that the River Shaar came from out of the side of the landrise. The humans of Toril have built another city at the top of the gorge to take advantage of the territory for farming, cattle raising, so the cliffside city is used mostly by the Crintri and their drow slaves... who don't care for the High Imaskari refugees that have shown up.
Also, its been discovered that the water source for the river Shaar was not JUST the riftlake from the great rift, and there's SOMETHING in the Underdark between the great rift and Peleverai that sourced the river even when they were on Abeir.
Well, I doubt that the current Mulhorandi know anything about the Vayemniri of Abeir. I mean, at least in canon is implied that the Mulhorandi who went to Abeir stayed in Abeir. The ones currently living in Mulhorand and nearby areas are descendants of those who survived the Spellplague and remained in Toril. Now, perphaps some Mulhorandi may dislike the dragonborn for their godlessness or for being former trade partners of their enemies, though this never really bothered the Chessentans that much.
As for the Imaskari refugees, they may have arrived in the Palace of the Purple Emperor, and now may be rebuilding High Imaskar there... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 02:42:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It does bring up a question of HOW will Mulhorand view Tymanther. I bring it up because wasn't Tymanchebar an anomaly? The Mulhorandi may have seen more dragonborn that were servants/soldiers of the dragon lords than they saw of Vayemniri. That's something worth thinking about.
Sidebar: BTW, on the High Imaskar front and my homebrew in the shaar revolving around Peleverai, I picture the "refugee" Imaskari hearing of a minor magocracy appearing in the Shaar and seeking a new home there. I see the returned Torilians (who know nothing of Deep Imaskar or High Imaskar) judging these folk as "wizard folk like us" and tentatively accepting them and allowing them to take up residence in the old caves of the Cliffside City of Peleverai, which is in the gorge that the River Shaar came from out of the side of the landrise. The humans of Toril have built another city at the top of the gorge to take advantage of the territory for farming, cattle raising, so the cliffside city is used mostly by the Crintri and their drow slaves... who don't care for the High Imaskari refugees that have shown up.
Also, its been discovered that the water source for the river Shaar was not JUST the riftlake from the great rift, and there's SOMETHING in the Underdark between the great rift and Peleverai that sourced the river even when they were on Abeir.
Well, I doubt that the current Mulhorandi know anything about the Vayemniri of Abeir. I mean, at least in canon is implied that the Mulhorandi who went to Abeir stayed in Abeir. The ones currently living in Mulhorand and nearby areas are descendants of those who survived the Spellplague and remained in Toril. Now, perphaps some Mulhorandi may dislike the dragonborn for their godlessness or for being former trade partners of their enemies, though this never really bothered the Chessentans that much.
As for the Imaskari refugees, they may have arrived in the Palace of the Purple Emperor, and now may be rebuilding High Imaskar there...
Yeah, I keep forgetting that they worded it that way. The "sudden uprising" and appearance of their deities back as what I'll call "lesser avatars" (because they aren't described as manifestations, more like occupying a mortal's body that's an aasimar or tiefling), I always figure came about with a return of forces that got transferred to Abeir. I chalk it up to uncertain person.
On the High Imaskari, yeah, I know most went to Raurin. I should have worded that better. My thing just comes down coordinatin large numbers of people in a retreat after an uprising. It will be disorganized. I haven't figured numbers, but if I assume that all of High Imaskar has ~200,000 Imaskari… I can see 2 to 5 thousand travelling into the Shaar, and say 20 times that going to the Raurin. I can see some large groups of a thousand or more going down into the Shining Lands, Ulgarth, and the Utter East as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Aug 2020 02:44:36 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 03:54:34
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, I keep forgetting that they worded it that way. The "sudden uprising" and appearance of their deities back as what I'll call "lesser avatars" (because they aren't described as manifestations, more like occupying a mortal's body that's an aasimar or tiefling), I always figure came about with a return of forces that got transferred to Abeir. I chalk it up to uncertain person.
On the High Imaskari, yeah, I know most went to Raurin. I should have worded that better. My thing just comes down coordinatin large numbers of people in a retreat after an uprising. It will be disorganized. I haven't figured numbers, but if I assume that all of High Imaskar has ~200,000 Imaskari… I can see 2 to 5 thousand travelling into the Shaar, and say 20 times that going to the Raurin. I can see some large groups of a thousand or more going down into the Shining Lands, Ulgarth, and the Utter East as well.
I find nonsensical that the Imaskari fled to Raurin. It's like moving into the Sahara. There is nothing there. My spin is that they spread this fake news so to Mulhorandi waste their efforts searching there, while they rebuild in another place. The Shaar is nothing but boring plains. I guess the place is good for the Imaskari to rebuilt there, either as part of Pelevaran or as their neighbors.
As for their fleeing, the Palace is a flying edifice, so I guest most of the Imaskari went into the Palace and fled there (and I find it unlikely that the Imaskari had left the Palace behind while fleeing). Those left behind may have been those not in Skyclave when the rebellion started.
As for the rebellion, I've think the rebellion was going to happen, Sundering or not. The FRCG states the mulani inhabitants of High Imaskar wete not happy with their gods outlawed, and there was this plot of Nezram subverting high ranking people to oppose the Imaskari. I guess this was part of the overarching metaplot 4e had (that was dropped for the Sundering plot), and in-universe I guess it didn't happen right away because Nezram was waiting Ususi's death (4e states she was really old and nearing her dead by 1479), because the dead of a ruler is the perfect timing for rebellions (and I like to think Nezram respected her because she was a capable and just ruler, and he decided to let her end her mandate without incidents).
The appearance of supe-powered Chosen was a welcomed development, but unnecessary for birthing the rebellion. Perhaps the Chosen would've brought some Abeiran Mulhorandi with them, but I don't see it necessary. Unlike the Abeiran Untheri, those Mulhorandi were ok with being enslaved... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Aug 2020 04:06:41 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 06:03:14
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Oh, well, Erin Evans answered my question about the Vanquisher. Despite all the talk about he not wanting to be the Vanquisher and that stuff, Kallan was elected as Vanquisher for the 1488-1498 period (seems Interim Vanquishers are allowed to be candidates for the actual title). That means the elders were happy with his leadership during the Tymanther-Unther War of 1487, and just decided to be with him for the next period.
Guess this solves much of our topics here. Kallan is a progressive guy, with means many gods would be allowed (with certain regulations) in Tymanther. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Aug 2020 06:07:37 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 12:54:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, I keep forgetting that they worded it that way. The "sudden uprising" and appearance of their deities back as what I'll call "lesser avatars" (because they aren't described as manifestations, more like occupying a mortal's body that's an aasimar or tiefling), I always figure came about with a return of forces that got transferred to Abeir. I chalk it up to uncertain person.
On the High Imaskari, yeah, I know most went to Raurin. I should have worded that better. My thing just comes down coordinatin large numbers of people in a retreat after an uprising. It will be disorganized. I haven't figured numbers, but if I assume that all of High Imaskar has ~200,000 Imaskari… I can see 2 to 5 thousand travelling into the Shaar, and say 20 times that going to the Raurin. I can see some large groups of a thousand or more going down into the Shining Lands, Ulgarth, and the Utter East as well.
I find nonsensical that the Imaskari fled to Raurin. It's like moving into the Sahara. There is nothing there. My spin is that they spread this fake news so to Mulhorandi waste their efforts searching there, while they rebuild in another place. The Shaar is nothing but boring plains. I guess the place is good for the Imaskari to rebuilt there, either as part of Pelevaran or as their neighbors.
As for their fleeing, the Palace is a flying edifice, so I guest most of the Imaskari went into the Palace and fled there (and I find it unlikely that the Imaskari had left the Palace behind while fleeing). Those left behind may have been those not in Skyclave when the rebellion started.
As for the rebellion, I've think the rebellion was going to happen, Sundering or not. The FRCG states the mulani inhabitants of High Imaskar wete not happy with their gods outlawed, and there was this plot of Nezram subverting high ranking people to oppose the Imaskari. I guess this was part of the overarching metaplot 4e had (that was dropped for the Sundering plot), and in-universe I guess it didn't happen right away because Nezram was waiting Ususi's death (4e states she was really old and nearing her dead by 1479), because the dead of a ruler is the perfect timing for rebellions (and I like to think Nezram respected her because she was a capable and just ruler, and he decided to let her end her mandate without incidents).
The appearance of supe-powered Chosen was a welcomed development, but unnecessary for birthing the rebellion. Perhaps the Chosen would've brought some Abeiran Mulhorandi with them, but I don't see it necessary. Unlike the Abeiran Untheri, those Mulhorandi were ok with being enslaved...
Yep, you kind of nailed how I felt about the Imaskari. I was like "why go to the Raurin". I'm betting some went back to Deep Imaskar. That's what kind of made me think of them living in the carved out halls in the earth for Peleveran, because its kind of in the underdark, but only kind of (you can go outside easily and see the sun). Honestly, I could also see small groups of them showing up at red wizard enclaves that AREN'T aligned with Thay anymore, but that were still on Toril and asking for asylum in return for offering magical aid. Such places should still exist since the former zulkir of transmutation was still managing the guild of foreign trade at the start of 4e. I'm betting half the enclaves are loyal to Thay/Tam and half are loyal to the Thayan exiles (and I bet that 60% of the enclaves failed after the spellplague).
On any returned Mulhorandi, they were like 2nd ranked overseers, so I can see them realizing what it is to be a slave and adjusting their society when they return. I'd prefer that some came back, if only to give options for stories (i.e. let's say HALF the country is the people who were still on Toril and HALF were those who came back... and perhaps these people can trace back their ancestry to common ancestors from 3 or 4 generations back). It can be a clashing of two cultures to a degree, even if its just group A wants their people in charge and group B wants their people in charge. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 19:00:00
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Now, there comes the stoopid question: how the heck the Gilgeamite Untheri got a functional navy in time for the siege of Djerad Kethendi, after just a tenday in Toril? If they brought it from Abeir, this raises another question: since when slaves are good at naval warfare?
Just questions that pop up in my head while enjoying my noon coffee... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Aug 2020 19:01:56 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 21:27:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now, there comes the stoopid question: how the heck the Gilgeamite Untheri got a functional navy in time for the siege of Djerad Kethendi, after just a tenday in Toril? If they brought it from Abeir, this raises another question: since when slaves are good at naval warfare?
Just questions that pop up in my head while enjoying my noon coffee...
Well, sometimes I think people take the term slave and put too much of our cultural televised views on it. Slave simply means laborer who is not paid but provided care by their owner, but lacking any choice in where, when, and how they labor. Sometimes this level of care that's provided is actually better than the person would be able to provide for themselves if paid, because the person builds the building, creates the food, etc.. themselves. It doesn't necessarily mean working the mines or the fields. A blacksmith, a seamstress, a maid, a cook, an accountant, and even a sailor can all be slaves. They may even be given some freedom if they're remote on what they can eat, etc.. when they're remote and whatever overseer is accompanying them has to get resources from an outside entity. The main thing with slavery is lack of choice/freedom, and old fashioned fealty in some systems can even be worse as a king can simply raise taxes with LESS worries about where the people have to get the resources from (they must still worry if they're overburdening them).
That being said, I don't have so much of a problem with the sailors, but unless the SHIPS transferred over I don't see them being available (which if a city with a port did transfer that they held, there's a good possibility). Maybe Messemprar is back, since we're going on the assumption that they control the northern portions. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2020 : 23:57:52
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Well, the problem is that, if Namshita is to be believed, the humans that were part of Gilgeam's forces were no soldiers. All of them were farmers, workers, etc. So, if there were some of them that happened to be sailors, they would've rowers or stevedores or something like that. Not soldiers. I find no logic in an army of rowers having under siege a city of professional soldiers... unless the decimation of the Kethendan forward regiment was more detrimental for the defenders than expected.
Now, if the navy had demons, then I find illogical that a dragon turtle could have defeated them all on his own, celestial being or not.
Edit:
Now that I think about it, the "naval battle of Djerad Kethendi" mentioned in the SCAG may be an exaggerated account by one unreliable narrators of that book of when Vivesh Nannari ate a single Untheran ship or something... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Aug 2020 00:21:17 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 01:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, the problem is that, if Namshita is to be believed, the humans that were part of Gilgeam's forces were no soldiers. All of them were farmers, workers, etc. So, if there were some of them that happened to be sailors, they would've rowers or stevedores or something like that. Not soldiers. I find no logic in an army of rowers having under siege a city of professional soldiers... unless the decimation of the Kethendan forward regiment was more detrimental for the defenders than expected.
Now, if the navy had demons, then I find illogical that a dragon turtle could have defeated them all on his own, celestial being or not.
Edit:
Now that I think about it, the "naval battle of Djerad Kethendi" mentioned in the SCAG may be an exaggerated account by one unreliable narrators of that book of when Vivesh Nannari ate a single Untheran ship or something...
Well, with Vivesh Nannari/Nanna-Sin, while he isn't a god anymore, he still is an Immortal of for example similar nature to Empyreans/Titans and lesser Demon Lords, who in lore I think could fight and defeat an army containing many demons, if it also depends on what demons, in what number were in that army. |
Edited by - Baltas on 05 Aug 2020 01:24:27 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 01:21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, the problem is that, if Namshita is to be believed, the humans that were part of Gilgeam's forces were no soldiers. All of them were farmers, workers, etc. So, if there were some of them that happened to be sailors, they would've rowers or stevedores or something like that. Not soldiers. I find no logic in an army of rowers having under siege a city of professional soldiers... unless the decimation of the Kethendan forward regiment was more detrimental for the defenders than expected.
Now, if the navy had demons, then I find illogical that a dragon turtle could have defeated them all on his own, celestial being or not.
Edit:
Now that I think about it, the "naval battle of Djerad Kethendi" mentioned in the SCAG may be an exaggerated account by one unreliable narrators of that book of when Vivesh Nannari ate a single Untheran ship or something...
If he had a navy, they were probably separate from his land army. Namshita probably wouldn't have really dealt with them. They could have been ships with slave soldiers (like mamluks) even on them as marines |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2020 : 18:34:08
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I find that unlikely. If we go by what's said in the novel, it seems that just one group of Untheri came with Gilgeam, and it was the one with him at the eve of the siege of Shyr. So, if indeed Messemprar was in Abeir and returned with the Sundering (an idea I personally don't like), the people there was not part of Gilgeam's forces. They should be an independent group.
It's most likely that the Untheran navy was brought along Gilgeam's land forces, and this raises a few questions:
Is Shyr a port city? Is Shyr Unthalass' counterpart in Abeir? If Gilgeam got soldiers capable enough to man ships and siege a port full of professional soldiers, why Namshita said all the Untheri were ill-trained and ill-equipped, and that the only forces to be reckoned with in the Untheran forces was the demon army that Gilgeam got from his bargain with Graz'zt.
(She was a high-ranking officer in Gilgeam's forces before her betrayal, so she was knowledgeable about that stuff, and I consider what she said reliable info).
My guess is that either the Kethendan had a very small contingent (Djerad Kethendi is a new city, after all), that was badly decimated by the demons, enough for even an amateur force to pose a threat for the city. Or that there were demons among the navy, and somehow Vivesh Nannari overpowered them all despite not being a god anymore. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Aug 2020 18:46:12 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2020 : 21:04:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I find that unlikely. If we go by what's said in the novel, it seems that just one group of Untheri came with Gilgeam, and it was the one with him at the eve of the siege of Shyr. So, if indeed Messemprar was in Abeir and returned with the Sundering (an idea I personally don't like), the people there was not part of Gilgeam's forces. They should be an independent group.
It's most likely that the Untheran navy was brought along Gilgeam's land forces, and this raises a few questions:
Is Shyr a port city? Is Shyr Unthalass' counterpart in Abeir? If Gilgeam got soldiers capable enough to man ships and siege a port full of professional soldiers, why Namshita said all the Untheri were ill-trained and ill-equipped, and that the only forces to be reckoned with in the Untheran forces was the demon army that Gilgeam got from his bargain with Graz'zt.
(She was a high-ranking officer in Gilgeam's forces before her betrayal, so she was knowledgeable about that stuff, and I consider what she said reliable info).
My guess is that either the Kethendan had a very small contingent (Djerad Kethendi is a new city, after all), that was badly decimated by the demons, enough for even an amateur force to pose a threat for the city. Or that there were demons among the navy, and somehow Vivesh Nannari overpowered them all despite not being a god anymore.
Yeah, pretty much we just have to accept that it happened and assume magic helped (hell, for all we know, Gilgeam had a fleet of ships in magical storage). However, you ask another question that's much more interesting to explore, and one which I've wondered about.
Is Shyr a port city and is it bounded by water? Since Seethyr already gave us a link to the map prior to the sundering in another thread, let's look and make some presumptions.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/5/57/Merrouroboros.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140315091744
It kind of looks to me like the placed called Kolophoon is where Mulhorand and the Raurin are ROUGHLY. We can assume that this is a batrachi held place, because this same area was the site of Okoth (the greatest Sarrukh nation). This is also where the Imaskari were roughly. Then along come the god kings, and where does Enlil want to place his capital? Some place that floods.
There's a common theme that kind of permeates this area. Karshimis has a "Citadel of Burning Ice". The group that pre-dated the red wizards and were studying powerful flame magics was "the Black Flame". Kossuth is sometimes referred to as "the Black Flame". Thayd survives as a ghostly posessing "suel-lich" like creature surrounded by "Black Flames". The wizard who helped force the Zulkirate into play called himself "the Black Star". There is semi-canon about the "artifact" beneath Thay which is called the Athora, and it was brought to this world by the Sarrukh, and it can be split.
I guess where I'm going is, is there something buried beneath Unthalass / Shyr? Maybe beneath the Raurin as well? Is this WHY Gilgeam wanted to conquer Shyr? I know he's using a necklace seemingly to cast spells according to the books. Is the necklace possibly made from the materials known as the Athora? Was Velsharoon's own ascension performed using this material? Is there maybe some portions of the Athora in the Tower Terrible in the Tower Terrible in Soorenar? Does this material somehow aid in the concept of using Worldfire? Maybe Gilgeam needs to perform a similar ritual with these materials to reassume his godhood? Maybe the Mulhorandi need to do similar? Maybe Tchazzar and the millennium dragon were involved with this material as well, as both were ascendant dragons as well?
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/5/57/Merrouroboros.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140315091744 |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2020 : 22:30:31
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So, a weird idea came to mind related to the above. If there is this powerful material, maybe its not all easy to acquire on the Toril side. What if its in small particle form. What if these particles were to say go into a clam shell? Would it be an irritant? Would they begin to "pearl" over it? Is this why pearl diving was such a popular thing for the city of unthalass? Is this why at one point Unthalass was the greatest city of Faerun? Did the people not realize why maybe the gods were interested in the pearls?
Along these same lines, down in the Utter East, I always thought it weird that one of the items for the "Blood & Magic" Storyline revolving around the bloodforges was a "Pearl of Power". Now, normally, a "Pearl of Power" was just an item that let's a wizard say recast a spell without wasting a slot, so the fact that this is supposedly the great and powerful item made me go... hmmmmm…. But casting without using spell slots? It COULD … be described ... like stealing the power... from somewhere else.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Worldfire
So, maybe some "Pearls of Power" are sometimes more potent because they have more of this type of "pariculate" acting as an irritant to the clam? Do these particular pearls of power draw the magic from another world via Worldfire and mages just don't realize it?
Who else has extensively studied Worldfire? A former Zulkir of Transmutation, Talaskos Murthrond, who found out Szass Tam (who is very interested in the Athora) wanted him dead and faked his own death... wonder if he was discovering a link between the Athora and Worldfire? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Tymanther and Unther post-SS and other stuff
