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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 17:44:11
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
So has political discourse just become a contest of drowning your opposition with the accusations of intolerance? And also who gives you or anyone the authority to deem who is intolerable?
Not at all. Positions can be analyzed to determine if they are intolerant. Someone then calling for tolerance of that position is acting in bad faith, and their argument need not be given any weight.
An intolerant position isn't just a difference of opinion. I like the color green; someone else who doesn't has a difference of opinion. No one is hurt by either position. We can respect that difference of opinion and agree to disagree. But if a position does inflict harm, it has moved beyond that. If I "respect that difference of opinion" then I am enabling harm to others; their intolerance has thus rendered my tolerance void. If I do not wish harm to come to others, but willingly let others commit that harm, my position is meaningless. Respecting that "difference of opinion" is no different from allowing that harm to continue.
What people have repeatedly said in this thread is that even if the portrayals of drow, orcs, and others weren't *intended* to be harmful, they are harmful, and we should fix that. As you said, thought is not a crime. Acting on that thought can be, though, because it is the results and actions that matter. The intentions of the people behind the creation of the drow, orcs, Vistani, etc. don't actually matter. The results of what their creations do.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 17:52:48
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Um, they reference Chang's dressing up AS blackface in the scene:
Chang's death in D&D
Isn't that just the evidence that shows it is not an offensive racial slur?
It was intentionally done *because* it was an offensive racial slur, and they were trying to lampoon it. It is still an offensive racial slur and they shouldn't have done it. It shows a real lack of sensitivity to the lived experiences of Black people, all to get a few laughs.
Sure, there are worse things out there in the world, but if you can't clean up little things, how can you clean up big things? Pulling the episode was a little thing they could do to not perpetuate the slur and to indicate further that even trying to lampoon it is a bad idea.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 19:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Um, they reference Chang's dressing up AS blackface in the scene:
Chang's death in D&D
Isn't that just the evidence that shows it is not an offensive racial slur?
So, because they called it blackface (and in an earlier part of the scene "a hate crime"), it means it isn't offensive. Is that what you're asking?
Yes. A character can do something offensive in a story. Other characters can call it out. They can even criticize it. With your logic we shouldn't have ANY movies portraying Hitler for example even if it is showing his evil ways, since it portrays offensive stuff.
Episode is not saying black face is something awesome and we should do it. It just shows it. If you are so offended by it that you can't even grasp any context and can't even stand to look at it, you can simply not watch it, it is not mandatory.
For example, Mad Men had an episode with Roger in black face. Should we also censor that episode? Or pretend that in 60s there were no racism so we don't get offended today? |
Edited by - farinal on 28 Jun 2020 19:19:12 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 19:36:01
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Thank you for bringing up Hitler. The difference here is that the episodes were not completely condemning blackface on the shows, so they are pulled. I have yet to see a movie about Hitler that doesn't completely condemn the man, his beliefs, and his actions.
30 rock as well had episodes with blackface and they have been pulled from NBC as well. We should censor Mad Men as well, and if you truly believe censoring an episode set in the 60s but filmed in the 21st century will make people ignorant of racism in the 60's, then I guess you believe having statues built in the 50's that celebrate slave-owners in the civil war are the only way we know about slavery. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 21:54:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Thank you for bringing up Hitler. The difference here is that the episodes were not completely condemning blackface on the shows, so they are pulled. I have yet to see a movie about Hitler that doesn't completely condemn the man, his beliefs, and his actions.
30 rock as well had episodes with blackface and they have been pulled from NBC as well. We should censor Mad Men as well, and if you truly believe censoring an episode set in the 60s but filmed in the 21st century will make people ignorant of racism in the 60's, then I guess you believe having statues built in the 50's that celebrate slave-owners in the civil war are the only way we know about slavery.
But if you censor Mad Men, for depicting a scene from the 60s as a period drama, then you should also censor it when they show segregation, when they show black people having difficulty finding jobs, obvious racist policies and lifestyle of the people etc. Then it is impossible to actually make a show.
It is like saying you can't have a movie depicting the life of Cicero in Ancient Rome because he owned slaves at the time.
As you said Community was not explicitly condemning the black-face in the episode BUT it also wasn't encouraging it. Same as the Mad Men. Show doesn't say it is a good idea to put black face make up. It just shows a group of people who think that is an okay behaviour for them. You don't need to agree with the characters. In fact if anything, by depicting that scene they are making you more aware of racism and therefore censoring it actually hinders collective consciousness on discrimination.
I am not saying statues or TV is the only place you can learn about history. But if you start with TV shows, continue with movies, then perhaps novels, then non-fiction books... where do you stop? |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 23:22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
If it insults people, then pull it.
So for example all South Park episodes featuring Jesus or Satan should be pulled? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 00:37:41
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Mirtek: Ah, South Park. The show that offends everyone, and you're focusing on the insults to a white sky person and his evil cohort. The show has done more to show how bad things are then just about anything else on TV, but let's focus on those that believe that sex before marriage is bad, anything but heterosexual is punished by an eternity in fire, while a healthy portion of the priesthood is guilty of pedophilia. If we pull any episodes of South Park, you have to pull them all, including the ones you laugh about them making fun of other groups you don't like. As much as they are offensive, they are at least equal opportunity and have been praised by those that would have been offended for depicting WHY it's offensive.
Farinal: It was condemned in the shows, but it's still highly offensive to those watching, so they pulled the episodes. You can depict Cicero in Rome, as long as you're also depicting how slavery is bad. But to pull episodes because they show segregation? That's truly twisting around what is being said. Blackface is one person making fun of another race/culture. Segregation is the abhorrent laws and attitude of dumb racists to feel more powerful than others. Blackface being portrayed, even with a wink to show that's it's not meant to be offensive, is still offensive. Showing how stupid some places were and are regarding how they treat other human beings is not offensive, but educational to what those people had/have to go through in their daily lives and wake up viewers to what needs to change. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 29 Jun 2020 00:44:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 00:53:05
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
I am not saying statues or TV is the only place you can learn about history. But if you start with TV shows, continue with movies, then perhaps novels, then non-fiction books... where do you stop?
No one is even suggesting trying to remove history. Saying "let's not perpetuate the centuries-old, dehumanizing treatment of millions of people, based on superficial and inherited characteristics, for entertainment purposes" is not saying "every single reference to this, regardless of context, needs to be removed!"
It's odd, but every time I see the slippery slope argument trotted out, it's being used as an argument against treating everyone fairly. |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 04:41:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Robin Laws is one of the main authors for Pelgrane Press and runs a terribly popular tabletop design podcast. This feels weird edgy for him.
Not dismissing it at all, just like... huh.
I don't know the author, nor I know Pelgrane Press, but they seem good from your words. I guess people can change their mind, especially given a decade or so.
Or perhaps Robin Laws was specifically tasked by WotC editors to write the drow like this. Like Smedman was tasked with portraying the Eilistraeans as REALLY offputting and hypocritical a**holes, and Eilistraee as a self-righteous version of her mother. Generally speaking, there was a concerted effort to erase any and all nuance from the drow (both in the portrayal of certain aspects and the removal of certain factions) and to highlight the concept of "genetically evil" as much as possible. And in not small part in the name of "muh Drizzt".
Robert's article might have simply been the result of that ridiculous mindset.
Oh I remember a lot of that stuff. It was mostly snarklore. There was a trend for a while of new people making Good aligned drow rangers dual weilding scimitars. It got to the point things got really toxic on the WotC forums. Many users i knew from back then felt the backlash against the Drizzt fanboys was a contributing factor in them removing the FR Novels board and even threating to ban anyone discussing them. Maybe even played a part in how 4ed went down. |
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mastermustard
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 04:45:59
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| I'm going to get banned if I leave my honest opinions on this crap, so I'll refrain. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 05:42:12
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quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
I'm going to get banned if I leave my honest opinions on this crap, so I'll refrain.
So why comment at all? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 05:46:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
. If we pull any episodes of South Park, you have to pull them all,
Exactly. Or take the whole Show Lucifer. There have been protests against it from the first announcement.
So wie you ssid "if it insults, pull it" you only meant "if it insults the right people, pull it"?
And those who are these "right people" is defined by whom?
I have heard from nerds hating The Big Bang Theory because they called it "nerd blackface" (not that i agree with the premise of their complaint nor the strong choice of words). Does the whole Show need to be pulled?
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 05:49:32
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| I know I said that I was done with this thread. But a thought just occurred to me. Is Star Wars offensive? |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 06:04:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I know I said that I was done with this thread. But a thought just occurred to me. Is Star Wars offensive?
The part where the Trade Federation actors were told to do bad Asian accents (I believe Lucas told them to aim for Thai) sure was. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 06:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I know I said that I was done with this thread. But a thought just occurred to me. Is Star Wars offensive?
The part where the Trade Federation actors were told to do bad Asian accents (I believe Lucas told them to aim for Thai) sure was.
True story. I worked on the Clone Wars TV show and we had some asian american story guys who really fought for a better designed and less stereotypical Neimoidian culture for an episode set on Neimoidia. This is why I keep saying that a diverse creative team is key for fixing issues like this and not surface level redactions of the previous content. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 07:45:53
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
I'm going to get banned if I leave my honest opinions on this crap, so I'll refrain.
So why comment at all?
the same reason why you replied to it
BTW anyone know the definition of Tight casted? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 10:36:50
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I know I said that I was done with this thread. But a thought just occurred to me. Is Star Wars offensive?
The part where the Trade Federation actors were told to do bad Asian accents (I believe Lucas told them to aim for Thai) sure was.
I know there were complaints about the Gungans, too, from some Italian-Americans (IIRC). |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 10:38:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
I'm going to get banned if I leave my honest opinions on this crap, so I'll refrain.
So why comment at all?
the same reason why you replied to it
Pretty sure there were two entirely different motivations, here.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
BTW anyone know the definition of Tight casted?
Never heard of it. I've heard of type-casting, but never tight casting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 12:58:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
. If we pull any episodes of South Park, you have to pull them all,
Exactly. Or take the whole Show Lucifer. There have been protests against it from the first announcement.
So wie you ssid "if it insults, pull it" you only meant "if it insults the right people, pull it"?
And those who are these "right people" is defined by whom?
I have heard from nerds hating The Big Bang Theory because they called it "nerd blackface" (not that i agree with the premise of their complaint nor the strong choice of words). Does the whole Show need to be pulled?
Here's the thing about South Park: THEY MAKE FUN OF EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE, AND DO IT IN A WAY THAT'S EDUCATIONAL TO SHOW WHY MATERIAL IS OFFENSIVE AND WHY WE SHOULDN'T DO IT.
Cartman is the worst character every on TV. The reason why it's still on the air is because we're shining a light on the worst to show why you shouldn't be that way.
I guess I can see that better than younger folks since I was around for All in the Family, Good Times, M*A*S*H, and other comedies that showed the bad parts of humanity in a comedic way without offending some of the people watching the show.
As for the PoS Big Bang Theory, I wouldn't go as far as "nerd blackface", but the jokes in the show are definitely written to make fun of the nerds. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 17:37:56
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| my bad, it is Type Cast |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 18:15:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
. If we pull any episodes of South Park, you have to pull them all,
Exactly. Or take the whole Show Lucifer. There have been protests against it from the first announcement.
So wie you ssid "if it insults, pull it" you only meant "if it insults the right people, pull it"?
And those who are these "right people" is defined by whom?
I have heard from nerds hating The Big Bang Theory because they called it "nerd blackface" (not that i agree with the premise of their complaint nor the strong choice of words). Does the whole Show need to be pulled?
Here's the thing about South Park: THEY MAKE FUN OF EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE, AND DO IT IN A WAY THAT'S EDUCATIONAL TO SHOW WHY MATERIAL IS OFFENSIVE AND WHY WE SHOULDN'T DO IT.
Cartman is the worst character every on TV. The reason why it's still on the air is because we're shining a light on the worst to show why you shouldn't be that way.
I guess I can see that better than younger folks since I was around for All in the Family, Good Times, M*A*S*H, and other comedies that showed the bad parts of humanity in a comedic way without offending some of the people watching the show.
As for the PoS Big Bang Theory, I wouldn't go as far as "nerd blackface", but the jokes in the show are definitely written to make fun of the nerds.
Also, there's a huge difference between mocking someone for personality traits, and mocking someone for something physical like their skintone. |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 19:56:00
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| Thats really cherry picking. If you are offended by Community then you are not different than a religious person getting offended from South Park. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 21:30:33
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Thats really cherry picking. If you are offended by Community then you are not different than a religious person getting offended from South Park.
Seriously? You're saying it's cherry-picking to say that an adopted belief structure that can be changed or abandoned at any time is different from a skin color or ethnicity that can never, ever be changed?
Last I checked, people weren't chameleons. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 22:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Thats really cherry picking. If you are offended by Community then you are not different than a religious person getting offended from South Park.
Seriously? You're saying it's cherry-picking to say that an adopted belief structure that can be changed or abandoned at any time is different from a skin color or ethnicity that can never, ever be changed?
Last I checked, people weren't chameleons.
So mocking muslims would be OK, because they could just start to eat pork, drink alcohol and stop being muslims at any time? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 22:49:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Thats really cherry picking. If you are offended by Community then you are not different than a religious person getting offended from South Park.
Seriously? You're saying it's cherry-picking to say that an adopted belief structure that can be changed or abandoned at any time is different from a skin color or ethnicity that can never, ever be changed?
Last I checked, people weren't chameleons.
So mocking muslims would be OK, because they could just start to eat pork, drink alcohol and stop being muslims at any time?
I'm not saying to mock any religion -- because as we've seen, people can take their religious views to extremes and cause a lot of violence of that. Such things are NOT limited to any one religion.
But technicially, yes, any Muslim could abandon their faith or convert to another. Same for any Jewish person, or any Christian, or any other faith you want to name.
No one can opt to change their ethnicity, though.
So the point remains: religion can be changed. Ethnicity cannot be. Neither should be mocked, but they are not the same thing.
Seriously, why is there such a debate about saying "don't be a jerk"? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 23:05:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Seriously, why is there such a debate about saying "don't be a jerk"?
Because if one sets the quota at "as long as one persons says you're a jerk you are one" it's impossible to meet.
There's hardly any form of enterntainment that does not offend at least a few people.
Speaking of South Park: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tPsv00Caag |
Edited by - Mirtek on 29 Jun 2020 23:07:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2020 : 23:09:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Seriously, why is there such a debate about saying "don't be a jerk"?
Because if one sets the quota at "as long as one persons says you're a jerk you are one" it's impossible to meet.
There's hardly any form of enterntainment that does not offend at least a few people.
That's not what the quota is and you know it. The quota is "Don't be a jerk to people based on their heritage."
I find it hard to believe that this basic concept eludes so many people. I suspect a deliberate obtuseness at play. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2020 : 02:48:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Seriously, why is there such a debate about saying "don't be a jerk"?
Because if one sets the quota at "as long as one persons says you're a jerk you are one" it's impossible to meet.
There's hardly any form of enterntainment that does not offend at least a few people.
That's not what the quota is and you know it. The quota is "Don't be a jerk to people based on their heritage."
I find it hard to believe that this basic concept eludes so many people. I suspect a deliberate obtuseness at play.
I too sense deliberate obtuseness here. Which I find highly irregular since they claim to be fans of the Forgotten Realms. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2020 : 02:52:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Speaking of South Park: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tPsv00Caag
I'm still not sure where you're going with this. Are you saying that by taking out religion, we lose a holiday? Or are you saying something about how South Park makes fun of everyone? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 30 Jun 2020 02:53:17 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2020 : 03:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Speaking of South Park: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tPsv00Caag
I'm still not sure where you're going with this. Are you saying that by taking out religion, we lose a holiday? Or are you saying something about how South Park makes fun of everyone?
The point is that once we start censoring to protect one groups feelings then we have to protect EVERYONE's feelings. South Park has been pretty adamant about the idea that no one has a right to not have their feelings hurt. |
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Official: Diversity and Dungeons & Dragons
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