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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jun 2020 : 16:57:40
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Had an thought yesterday. Since the god "Ilmater" seem to float without any single purpose or sense (imho), any thought if it would fit to make a secret backstory for him as orignating as the Norse god "Baldr", know as Balder or Baldur? The bleeding god killed in Norse mythos?
If so, he'd be brother to Tyr. Thoughts?
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2020 : 17:50:41
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Great, was more curious if there actually was some crazy tale in "canon" which a player could have found  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2020 : 19:12:26
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Honestly, I think Ed's take on Tyr isn't that great and should be ignored to a degree. There's enough other things saying that he is the Tyr from other mythologies in published products. I like Ed. I like his work. But he's human and not everything he writes is golden (just like any of us).
On the original question... I know that Ilmater is supposed to be somewhat based on Issek of the Jug.... loosely. I however believe I like the idea that you present of him being tied to Baldr (Baldur). We DO canonically have a temple of Balder in the realms. Granted, its in the old desert of desolation modules, but its there, and that is in fact one of the first realms products (granted, its imported from Greyhawk, but it includes things like Durpar in it, and that's canonical realms). I picture the Jhaamdath pantheon as having several similar deities of the norse pantheon under different names. Tyr fits Tyr, Helm fits Heimdall, Loki could fit Valigan Thirdborn, and this variation of Ilmater could fit Balder. Frey could fit Lathander, and Freya could fit Sune (though some will also note they can also fit Apollo and Venus, and that Murdane as a goddess of Wisdom could fit Athena). I honestly think the best thing to do with Jhaamdath/Talfir might be to assume that there was some amalgam pantheon made of Olympian, Norse, and even Celtic/Finnish deities rather than a complete pantheon that we understand. It may also be that some deities are a result of 2 deities merging (for instance, maybe something like Apollo dies and "cedes" his power to Frey much like what we saw in the old empires). These things don't necessarily have to happen all at once, nor do they have to be confined to the same area. For instance, if this area has Loviatar in it, and Inanna died in Unther... she may have ceded her power to Loviatar (which could help explain a certain thing in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Jun 2020 19:14:29 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2020 : 20:22:07
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BTW, if you do accept that idea (of there being multiple Norse/Greek/Celtic/Finnish/Babylonian gods down in the southern Faerun areas) there's some interesting things you can do with that historically. For instance, Frey may have been an elven god for the elves in the south. Meanwhile, Apollo might have been worshipped by the neighboring humans. Meanwhile, Lathander could have been a third god. Meanwhile Balder dies, and some of his portfolios would be rebirth and possibly Dawn.
If one wanted to do something interesting with Abeir, the idea that the coming of Calim and Memnon was the coming of "Dawn Titans"/"Primordials" from Abeir back to Toril long ago could work (there are some who would like to work some kind of time travel thing in with Zakhara for this arrival, but I posit that the elven sundering was a time affecting thing as well). Essentially, Calim, Memnon, Bhaelros, and maybe even some "deities" down in the Shaar such as Khass and even possibly some Babylonian "gods" such as Anu may have all been "primordials" who transferred over in this rough timeframe. Given the affects on the south (including Calimshan) by the sundering, this might make a lot of sense. Later beings, such as Enlil may have taken over the roles of some of these beings (possibly by killing them). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 17:32:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Honestly, I think Ed's take on Tyr isn't that great and should be ignored to a degree. There's enough other things saying that he is the Tyr from other mythologies in published products. I like Ed. I like his work. But he's human and not everything he writes is golden (just like any of us).
On the original question... I know that Ilmater is supposed to be somewhat based on Issek of the Jug.... loosely. I however believe I like the idea that you present of him being tied to Baldr (Baldur). We DO canonically have a temple of Balder in the realms. Granted, its in the old desert of desolation modules, but its there, and that is in fact one of the first realms products (granted, its imported from Greyhawk, but it includes things like Durpar in it, and that's canonical realms). I picture the Jhaamdath pantheon as having several similar deities of the norse pantheon under different names. Tyr fits Tyr, Helm fits Heimdall, Loki could fit Valigan Thirdborn, and this variation of Ilmater could fit Balder. Frey could fit Lathander, and Freya could fit Sune (though some will also note they can also fit Apollo and Venus, and that Murdane as a goddess of Wisdom could fit Athena). I honestly think the best thing to do with Jhaamdath/Talfir might be to assume that there was some amalgam pantheon made of Olympian, Norse, and even Celtic/Finnish deities rather than a complete pantheon that we understand. It may also be that some deities are a result of 2 deities merging (for instance, maybe something like Apollo dies and "cedes" his power to Frey much like what we saw in the old empires). These things don't necessarily have to happen all at once, nor do they have to be confined to the same area. For instance, if this area has Loviatar in it, and Inanna died in Unther... she may have ceded her power to Loviatar (which could help explain a certain thing in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook).
Well, from what I saw, Ed's take is that contact between the other Prime Material Planes, and Toril goes both ways - who says Tyr isn't as much a Faerunian deity as as a Norse one? Tyr, or at least an aspect of him could even first come to the Realms during the Dawn Age, seeing he is in some described stories a Jotun (son of the giants Hymir and Hrodr in Hymskvida, not Odin's son, some thinking Hymir might be form of Ymir) - which could quite mean Tyr is one of Annam's (Ymir's?) sons, if one that sided with humanity.
(Although it get's further complicated if one sees the similarities between Annam and Odin, as well his children like Stronmaus and Thor...)
It's also notable Ed noted multiple gods might be aspects of each other - Ed confirmed he kinda sees Selune as possibly the same being as Sehanine Moonbow, and Sune as Hanali Celanil, if left it ambiguous:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2019/11/10/you-said-you-wanted-all-of-the-outer-planes-to-have-ruling-deities-so-you-placed-bane-in-archeron-so-as-not-to-conflict-with-asmodeus/
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 18:52:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Honestly, I think Ed's take on Tyr isn't that great and should be ignored to a degree. There's enough other things saying that he is the Tyr from other mythologies in published products. I like Ed. I like his work. But he's human and not everything he writes is golden (just like any of us).
On the original question... I know that Ilmater is supposed to be somewhat based on Issek of the Jug.... loosely. I however believe I like the idea that you present of him being tied to Baldr (Baldur). We DO canonically have a temple of Balder in the realms. Granted, its in the old desert of desolation modules, but its there, and that is in fact one of the first realms products (granted, its imported from Greyhawk, but it includes things like Durpar in it, and that's canonical realms). I picture the Jhaamdath pantheon as having several similar deities of the norse pantheon under different names. Tyr fits Tyr, Helm fits Heimdall, Loki could fit Valigan Thirdborn, and this variation of Ilmater could fit Balder. Frey could fit Lathander, and Freya could fit Sune (though some will also note they can also fit Apollo and Venus, and that Murdane as a goddess of Wisdom could fit Athena). I honestly think the best thing to do with Jhaamdath/Talfir might be to assume that there was some amalgam pantheon made of Olympian, Norse, and even Celtic/Finnish deities rather than a complete pantheon that we understand. It may also be that some deities are a result of 2 deities merging (for instance, maybe something like Apollo dies and "cedes" his power to Frey much like what we saw in the old empires). These things don't necessarily have to happen all at once, nor do they have to be confined to the same area. For instance, if this area has Loviatar in it, and Inanna died in Unther... she may have ceded her power to Loviatar (which could help explain a certain thing in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook).
Well, from what I saw, Ed's take is that contact between the other Prime Material Planes, and Toril goes both ways - who says Tyr isn't as much a Faerunian deity as as a Norse one? Tyr, or at least an aspect of him could even first come to the Realms during the Dawn Age, seeing he is in some described stories a Jotun (son of the giants Hymir and Hrodr in Hymskvida, not Odin's son, some thinking Hymir might be form of Ymir) - which could quite mean Tyr is one of Annam's (Ymir's?) sons, if one that sided with humanity.
(Although it get's further complicated if one sees the similarities between Annam and Odin, as well his children like Stronmaus and Thor...)
It's also notable Ed noted multiple gods might be aspects of each other - Ed confirmed he kinda sees Selune as possibly the same being as Sehanine Moonbow, and Sune as Hanali Celanil, if left it ambiguous:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2019/11/10/you-said-you-wanted-all-of-the-outer-planes-to-have-ruling-deities-so-you-placed-bane-in-archeron-so-as-not-to-conflict-with-asmodeus/
Guess this goes to show how time plays tricks on the mind. I could have sworn he had a statement that this Tyr is NOT the Tyr of the Norse pantheon. I'm rereading (reprinting below) the statements. As long as he can be the Tyr of Norse myth, I'm fine with it. He can have other bodies/forms throughout realmspace for all I can, and Fenris may have started out as Kezef for all I care.
Hi again, all. Ed has been very busy these last few weeks (writing, dealing with severe winter weather where he dwells, and coping with the effects of a severe injury to his wife), and apologizes for his lengthy silences here at the Keep.
However, he HAS been reading all of your posts I've been ferrying him, when he can snatch the time, and has roused himself to make some replies.
Here's one of them:
dazzerdal and sleyvas, Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").
So saith Ed, illuminating a tiny glimpse of the dim past of the Realms.
love to all,
THO |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 20:34:53
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You know what... something just occurred to me on this front that MIGHT be useful.
If we accept Baldur as the god before Ilmater, and we accept him as being part of Jhaamdath, and we also accept Baldur as having something to do with the dawn.
Then we bring in "who killed Baldur?" Well, it was Loki (which let's call him Valigan Thirdborn) right? No, it was Loki who tricked someone into doing it. Who did he trick? Hodr >>> Hodr the Doombringer >>> Hoar the Doombringer….
So, apparently Hodr is equated to a god of darkness and winter. According to the myths (there's 2 versions), one he travels to the underworld and has a weapon crafted to kill his foe Baldur. In the other he's seen as a blind god who is tricked into hurling a weapon created by Loki at Baldur when Baldur is essentially defying fate by having it that "nothing" can kill him. In some views, it might be seen as just that Hodr kills Baldur for his arrogance, and is then himself killed later.
So, we know that Assuran eventually is allowed into the Faerunian pantheon as a god of vengeance who takes on the name Hoar the Doombringer. Might it be something wherein he was allowed to come in if he agreed to administer justice to Hodr/Hoar the Doombringer for the death of Baldur, and he then takes on the name of said god afterward and begins changing perception of him? In essence, the idea that Odin just "births" this newborn god named "Vali" to avenge the death of Baldur might in fact be him allowing a god from another pantheon in to enact vengeance.
Oddly, Baldur is also equated to another god of justice in Norse myth. He is the father of Forseti by his "wife" Nanna. My want to suddenly mix many gods of Unther and Norse lore get pretty weirdly twisted now by that (i.e. Nanna-sin is male, but gods can be anything... and then again, Nanna-Sin had a daughter named Inanna <who could also be Nanna> and son who is the sun god Utu.... and Ramman reminds me a lot of Thor, and Ramman is involved in the defeat of Hoar before Assuran BECOMES Hoar). So, basically, if we equate Hodr/Hoar the Doombringer as a betrayer of the gods AND we also agree that Assuran did some kind of betrayal of the Untheric gods (because he got cast out)…. maybe there's a bigger story here that crosses pantheons and can be equated to the whole dawn cataclysm and even the death of all the sun gods that happened during the orcgate wars. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Jun 2020 21:12:23 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 21:40:42
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Hmmm, and I'm not the only one to look at the Norse name Nanna and also look at the name Inanna in Sumerian mythology and equate them. Also, from a story perspective, Nanna dies "shortly after Baldur and goes to Hel with him". One of the most famous stories of Inanna is of her going to the Underworld shortly after the death of her sister Ereshkigal's first husband (not Nergal, but someone named Gugalanna… who is a being sent to take retribution on Gilgamesh for refusing the advancements of Inanna)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanna_(Norse_deity)
So, both are goddesses that went to Hel shortly after someone else died and both got resurrected. In the realms we have both Ishtar and Inanna, so maybe when she was resurrected she came back as Ishtar. Alternatively, Inanna's death could have been another "splitting" with deities coming back as evil and good that later are subsumed by other deities (possibly even shortly afterward) such that we end up with a deity like Loviatar from Inanna and the counterpart of Loviatar who might be seen as Eldath (both of which are down in Jhaamdath). In doing this, it would set a precedent that creates some linkage between Eldath and Ishtar... which does kind of fit as both are river goddesses and the realms version of Ishtar is a lot kinder. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 08:50:23
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With Ramman, it's interesting he is based on a similar or even the same god as Bhaelros - Ramman being one of names of Ishkur/Adad, while Bhaelros is based on Adad's Levantine counterpart - Ba'al Hadad - with Bhaelros also being believed to live within his idol (which proven kinda true though), like Levantine gods were believed to.
Bhaelros got though absorbed /subsumed by Talos. It is possible though Ramman split from Bhaelros, or arrived latter (as stated in canon), to fill the void after Bhaelros was absorbed by Talos.
Which could further connected to the Talos as an evil Thor/Thor's evil half theories we discussed.
With Ramman, it might interest you that Ramman (the same as Adad/Ishkur) was equated with the Hittite/Luwian Tarhun and Hattian Taru, related to Thor via a possible common Indo-Eurpean link.
Other links to Germanic gods, are that of the Luwian god Tiwaz (the same as the reconstructed proto-Germanic form of Tyr - Tiwaz):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiwaz_(Luwian_deity).
Of course, these are more related to how Anatolian Indo-European languages, diverged very early from Proto-Indo-European, and preserved many of it's characteristics, which also reflected in latter Indo-European gods.
Lelwani (equated with Ereshkigal) is another example, with her paralleling though possibly love goddesses of latter Indo-European cultures, like Hindu Lalita Maha Tripura Sundari (related to, and aspect of Kali/Durga/Parvati, and considered sometimes the supreme being), and Slavic goddess Lela (also possibly connected to the Leliwa Coat of Arms).
Nanna herself was believed to be related to Inanna (and the Phrygian Nana) in the past, although it's considered today improbable.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanna_(Norse_deity)#Theories |
Edited by - Baltas on 27 Jun 2020 09:01:15 |
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Ilmater and Baldr?
