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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-I thought I read an Ecology of the Slaad article in a Dragon Magazine, but apparently I was making that memory up because no such article was written. This thread was created in the same spirit as those: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/371m3b/slaadi/

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

The BBEG of sladdi were Death Slaadi. Now I guess you have White and Black Slaadi. Sounds cool. Who's next, Ygorl??

lol, anyway... I do love The Slaad,

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Originally posted by Icelander

I might use some of that, especially the social organization of 'the Scene', which in anthropological terms suggest a prestige economy. I like that Death Slaad consciously hold themselves outside that social organization and instead view themselves as self-evident overlords of all slaad.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I'm surprised there's no linking between the batrachi, slaadi, Ramenos and dreaming with limbo's mutable landscape that responds to thoughts (kind of like how dreams do). I'd half wonder if Ramenos' sleeping isn't a result of some kind of interaction long ago with limbo and perhaps dreams, as in perhaps he was FORCED into hibernation as a result of interacting with something. His infatuation with intoxication might also be a result of limbo. Essentially, could Ramenos' kind of be "roofied" into intoxicated dreams. Perhaps even the "forced procreation" of the slaadi is a strange result of this. Not sure how just yet, but there could be a story here with that. Perhaps someone stole Ramenos' ability to create and left him in a dream state.... kind of like someone who was ambushed in a hotel and wakes up to find their kidneys and genitals removed.

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@LeslieCourtne14

Are the Batrachi somehow related to the Slaad or the kuo-toa? I always felt like there could be a great opportunity to use them as these sort of ancient “Lovecraftian” elder ones who just mostly died off.


@TheEdVerse

I agree, a great opportunity for an elder ones role.

As Eric Boyd and I wrote in SERPENT KINGDOMS, a few sages of the Realms correctly believed that most of the Batrachi escaped to Limbo, and over time became the slaadi, a handful remained in the swamps of Toril but likely went extinct before the 1300s DR, and (see SERPENT KINGDOMS and POWERS & PANTHEONS) the Batrachi created or were the ancestors of many shapeshifting, amphibious, and piscine Faerūnian races, including the bullywugs, doppelgangers, kopru (see the 3e MONSTER MANUAL II), kuo-toa, locathah, sivs, and tako.
#Realmslore

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

It's a direction I intend to go in, and we should have no qualms about rewriting creature history a bit, the wotc guys have been doing it with every new edition.

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Originally posted by Icelander

What about slaad relationships, romance, sex and intrigue?

What kind of emotions do slaad feel and how do they act on them?

Are there slaad lovers?

Or do slaad only experience sexual attraction as a relic of their humanoid hosts, meaning that those slaad who are capable of spending time in that form are more likely to have such urges?

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I would go with the idea that "natural" Slaadi are lacking of genitalia. They aren't either male or female. Only the green, gray, and death slaad have the ability to shapechange into a form that might have genitalia.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

However, I've always been a proponent of the idea that it takes some "extra" magic to make one fertile when shapechanged, and that the mere act of shapechanging makes one infertile temporarily (this house rule to prevent all manner of weirdness... such as a human birthing a minotaur, etc... or races forcibly procreating by transforming human females into a being like themselves).

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Originally posted by Icelander

What about slaad relationships, romance, sex and intrigue?

What kind of emotions do slaad feel and how do they act on them?

Are there slaad lovers?

Or do slaad only experience sexual attraction as a relic of their humanoid hosts, meaning that those slaad who are capable of spending time in that form are more likely to have such urges?

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Vhostym the Sojourner's minions in the Erevis Cale Trilogy are probably the most "personalized" Slaadi we have in print: Elura, Serrin, Dolgan and Azriim.

It's been many years since I read the books, so I'm relying on free snippets available on the internet, but when they were hiding their Slaadi forms from Vraggen, a man that hired them, Serrin, Dolgan and Azriim all were male, while Elura was female (and mentioned as beautiful). "Serrin's mother" was also mentioned. When Vhostym was mourning the death of Elura, he described her as a "she". In that same passage, he remembers that "She had taken pleasure in the males of many species, including Vhostym himself, centuries ago..." Azriim preferred his Human form, "a human form was perhaps a more suitable tool for enjoying sensation, he supposed". Dolgan is described as less intelligent than his brood brothers/sister and enjoys hurting himself for the sensation of it.

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Originally posted by Icelander

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Originally posted by sleyvas

However, I've always been a proponent of the idea that it takes some "extra" magic to make one fertile when shapechanged, and that the mere act of shapechanging makes one infertile temporarily (this house rule to prevent all manner of weirdness... such as a human birthing a minotaur, etc... or races forcibly procreating by transforming human females into a being like themselves).

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That kind of weirdness has been a part of shapechanging magic from its mythological roots and is clearly present in D&D. See half-[aything] templates.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

It was indeed in GHotR that a being (WHO IS DESCRIBED AS BEING A SLAAD AND an ascended Batrachi Lord AND a Primordial) says that the Slaad and the batrachi aren't related. That being being Bazim-Gorag, the Firebringer. That being said, I trust his statements as much as I trust …. well, maybe a little more than a Leiran. He would lie to get what he wants. He's also tied to something called the pandemonium stone, and so are slaadi. Then 5e brings in a concept of the "Spawning Stone" created by Primus as a stone to bring law and order to Limbo, but it became corrupted. Both the Pandemonium Stone and the Spawning Stone attract slaadi. It would almost beg one to try and combine the two, but perhaps that's NOT the best way to use it. The Green Spellcasting Slaadi have strong ties to fire (they hurl it like a cantrip, and they cast fireball), and since Bazim-Gorag is ALSO tied to fire and the pandemonium stone, perhaps there is some link there.

In reading the below, snippets from different things, perhaps we can make some bullets and ferret out some more ideas for their society
1) So, the Batrachi flee to Limbo when the worlds are twinned AFTER they release several primordials. These primordials are the reason that the world gets twinned into Abeir and Toril.
2) Bazim-Gorag is an "ascended Batrachi", a Batrachi Lord, but also termed as a primordial. He was one of the beings that traveled to Limbo, and he is closely tied to "the Pandemonium Stone", which attracts slaadi.
3) The Pandemonium stone is seemingly tied to elemental energy and appears in the elemental chaos.
4) Ygorl and Ssendam are two "Slaad Lords". Ygorl is a blackened/charred skeletal, winged slaad of death/entropy and Ssendam appears as either a golden slaadi, an amoeba with a brain, or a mortal being with a black sword that stuns and is known as a power of insanity.
5) Per Dragon #221 Death Slaad CAN leave their ranks and "transform" into Slaad Lords. It should be noted that there are very few Death slaad (probably more than the original 4 mentioned to exist in 1e.. but probably should be limited to less than a few hundred).
6) Per Dragon #221 there are 2 more Slaad Lords, Chourst the Lord of Randomness and Rennbuu the Lord of Colors, and an aspiring death Slaad Sorel, future lord of Anarchy. Renbuu is noted as having the ability to change any slaad from one color type to another.
7) Slaad have a somewhat unique ability to forcibly "harvest" mortal souls and change them into outer planar entities of Chaos. I know a lot of us don't look at it this way, but someone who dies from their special methods seemingly creates the outer planar entity that is a slaadi. This possibly has something to do with the spawning stone, such that newly born slaadi are attracted to it, and when they touch it a control gem is created in their heads.
8) Per Dragon #221, Ygorl created the spawning stone. Per 5e, the orderly Primus created the spawning stone.

SUPPOSITION: Primus created the stone, and Ygorl corrupted it. Red and Blue slaadi are possibly natural fiends of Limbo, but the more powerful versions possibly were "created" by the creator race of the Batrachi from this base. The spawning stone is what puts control gems in slaadi (as control gems were possibly Primus' addition to try and add order), and this is why Primus possibly created the stone (which possibly had another name before) in order to gain control of the beings of Limbo by implanting them all with control gems. Possibly Primus intended to turn the Slaadi on the armies of the Abyss? But possibly the ability to "spawn new slaadi" requires bathing in the energies of the spawning stone. Slaadi killed on other planes "respawn" from the spawning stone rather than dying, but as a lesser version of slaadi. Formerly Green Slaadi who wish to regain their spellcasting abilities must find the pandemonium stone and bathe in its elemental energies to transform themselves. Possibly, Ygorl added the ability to corrupt mortal spirits and respawn slaadi spirits but "lessened" as a feature of entropy that takes energy from the now lesser "fiend" and imbuing said energy into himself. Red Slaad who die are fully consumed souls for Ygorl, but their energy is "spread" by the spawning stone so as to pervert other mortal spirits/souls or somesuch mechanic.

Supposition: Bazim-Gorag is also a "Slaad Lord", and this is what the Batrachi became was some powerful entities with ties to the slaadi as their rulers (or perhaps they became the first Death Slaadi). Perhaps these beings had ties to entities of the Far Realm. Perhaps some other entities of Maztica are ALSO slaadi lords (Zaltec could seemingly fit).

Supposition: Ramenos transformed the Batrachi into the first death slaad and imbued them with the knowledge of how to turn themselves into powerful "primordial" type entities. He did this by creating the Pademonium Stone, which drew on the elemental chaos, but doing so required much from him in the form of dream magic. Whether this was something he anticipated, or a result due to some other entities involvement, is little known. It is said that the power of the pandemonium stone required both negative energy and fire energy as well, and that the first death slaad were something like suel liches, surrounded by black flame and requiring the harvesting of souls in order to maintain their existence. Perhaps the Pandemonium stone is used to convert captured souls to a usable energy form for death slaad, and perhaps death slaad trade with night hags for larvae in a way like liches.


From GHotR with Bazim-Gorag apparently speaking to someone who seemingly might have some intimate knowledge of Kossuth/Thay/Zulkirs
Understand, Meat, that I am quite familiar with your feeble kind. My people ruled the whole of Merrouroboros while your ancestors cowered in caves and banged rocks together to create fire. My own domain was vast, stretching from the depths of the Black Sea in the north to the fiery peaks of Lopango in the south. You know not these lands because the fool Zhoukoudien threw our empire away in an imprudent conflict with the Jotunbrud.

When the seven-turn winter later blanketed our lands with ice, I retreated with many of my kind to the otherworldly realm of Limbo, where we established a kingdom that your sages call the Supreme Throne. It was there that our race was once again transformed by Ramenos to serve his divine purpose. Many of your ignorant kind mistakenly confuse my people with the slaad, who make their home on the same plane. In fact, I am a batrachi lord—far more powerful than any common fiend.

But let us return to the task at hand. The agenda of your Lord Kossuth is not so different from my own. Fire burns in both our hearts, and together we can scatter the armies of your enemies and sow chaos throughout the land. Speak now the rite of unbinding, and you can command power greater than that of any pathetic zulkir. All shall bow before the Order of the Black Flame and tremble before the fury of the Firebringer.


From 4e FRCG on Pandemonium Stone and on Bazim-Gorag

Bazim-Gorag: The Lord of the Pandemonium Stone (see the sidebar) is an ascended batrachi dedicated to pure chaos. He is chance incarnate, invoked by the powerless, the gamblers, and anyone who has lost hope in anything but an impossible twist of fate.

THE PANDEMONIUM STONE
The Pandemonium Stone isn’t a permanent feature of the Elemental Chaos. This rough spire of various materials, ever-changing and immense, features carvings that come alive with elemental forces, undulate, then die down again. The massive stone manifests at random in place and time. When it appears, the spire calls to the slaads, and they gather to bathe in its energy. The greatest of them, including Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer, eventually come to the Pandemonium Stone if the pinnacle stays long enough in one place. Tracing the movements of the stone, if possible, is likely the easiest way to find and attack the great slaad.

Stories differ as to what the stone is. Some suggest that it is a sleeping and immensely powerful slaad lord. Others speculate that it’s a batrachi artifact, and that studying it could prove decisively whether slaads descend from that amphibious progenitor race.
Alignment: Chaotic evil. Connections: None. Primary Resident: Bazim-Gorag (primordial).

From the 5e monster manual on the "spawning Stone" and "control gems" in salad
As a slaad emerges from the Spawning Stone, the stone magically implants a fragment of itself in the slaad's brain. This fragment takes the form of a magic gem roughly the size and shape of a human child's fist. The gem is the same color as the slaad. Another creature can use magic to draw forth a slaad's gem and use it to subjugate the slaad. The slaad must obey whoever possesses its gem. If a slaad's gem is destroyed, the slaad can no longer be controlled in this way.
A slaad born from something other than the Spawning Stone has no gem in its brain, but it gains one if it ever comes into contact with the Spawning Stone. Slaadi on Limbo are attracted to the Spawning Stone, so most end up with a gem. A slaad with a control gem in its brain has the following additional trait.
Control Gem. Implanted in the slaad's brain is a magic control gem. The slaad must obey whoever possesses the gem and is immune to being charmed while so controlled.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-It's ironic that a race that was literally born out of chaos has such a regimented, structured caste system.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

Xanxost shared some potentially valuable information on the Slaad culinary preferences.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

Perhaps not born out of, adapted to (especially if they are descendants of Batrachi).
Why ironic? Perhaps having at least a streak of non-Chaoic-ness prevents them from being dragged by the chaos until they are indistinguishable from the stuff of Limbo.
That's how it seems to work for the Githerai, after all.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

Their forms might be stable because they were something else that were transformed by the Plane of Limbo - creating the slaad as we know them today.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by Icelander

Right, I've read all the slaad lore I could find in the old Planescape materials and now I can't figure out how to reconcile the mechanics of slaad procreation given in their Monster Manual or Compendium with the lore on the Spawning Stone.

If slaad are spawned from humanoid hosts, which is a pretty fundamental part of how they work, what is the purpose of the Spawning Stone?

Allegedly, slaad eggs are fertilized at the Spawning Stone and are infertile anywhere else, but red and blue slaad procreate by infecting humanoids with parasites or a disease, so don't need fertilization by anyone...

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Originally posted by Icelander

Right, I've read all the slaad lore I could find in the old Planescape materials and now I can't figure out how to reconcile the mechanics of slaad procreation given in their Monster Manual or Compendium with the lore on the Spawning Stone.

If slaad are spawned from humanoid hosts, which is a pretty fundamental part of how they work, what is the purpose of the Spawning Stone?

Allegedly, slaad eggs are fertilized at the Spawning Stone and are infertile anywhere else, but red and blue slaad procreate by infecting humanoids with parasites or a disease, so don't need fertilization by anyone...

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