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AlexMcClay2000
Acolyte
Australia
13 Posts |
 Posted - 07 May 2020 : 18:55:43
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So I was looking into the Cloak and Dagger supplement for 2e, and I noticed that the population mentioned in Westgate was 98,000 , rising to 118,000 in summer, and then I looked at the 3e FRCS and its population 29,800. Now Cloak and Dagger is set in 1368DR-1370DR and I'm wondering why the population declined so much in a span of two years.
The same goes for Irieabor, in 1358 DR its population was around 81k, and up to 119k in summer, now in 1372 DR its population is 16k, that's a massive drop. Iriaebor's population obviously dropped due to Mark Anthony's novel Crypt of the Shadowking, but that happened in 1363 DR according to the Grand History of the Realms. So during that time, the population should have increased at least. In Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, it mentions that its armed forces are 8k strong, so half of the population is its police force, that doesn't really make much sense.
Im just trying to understand the population decline, so if anybody can help that would mean a lot to me. Thanks!
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Alex McClay |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2020 : 21:23:36
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Good question! I always had major problems with the population fluxes in the Realms. I know some sages are able to "explain" things like Calimport's population differences between the versions (by millions) based on "slave populations not counting" or some nonsense. It just seems editing issues to me.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2020 : 21:42:43
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| In 3E, the designers said they really took a global look at the population and tried to compare to more realistic numbers because in 1E and 2E the numbers were all over the place, especially between products, resulting in some wildly high and low numbers, mostly high. So for 3E they really tried to get a more reasonable population numbers that were comparable across the continent. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2020 : 21:44:37
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This is from So Saith Ed 2010-2016 pg 468
"Please bear in mind that all sorts of designers over the years have altered population figures apparently on whims, without ever consulting Ed about it. Sometimes apparently without even reading the printed canon words of Ed about, say, Waterdeep and its seasonal shifts in population."
If you need an in world explanation, just toss in a plague around that time. Or, some god snapped his fingers after getting an artifact. Say, a glove of some kind. Yep, that makes perfect sense.
Edit: Tom's comment makes perfect sense about needing a re-evaluation. A quick look at Iriaebor puts it around 2,000 buildings with a population of 81,000. That's about 40.5 people per building. I am not sure if that density would be too much or not but sounds kinda crazy. However, 3e had it around 16,000 which is about 8 per building. That seems a bit low given the fact of all the rich people having servants. Maybe just the average of the 2? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 07 May 2020 22:05:09 |
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AlexMcClay2000
Acolyte
Australia
13 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 01:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
In 3E, the designers said they really took a global look at the population and tried to compare to more realistic numbers because in 1E and 2E the numbers were all over the place, especially between products, resulting in some wildly high and low numbers, mostly high. So for 3E they really tried to get a more reasonable population numbers that were comparable across the continent.
Thanks for the information! |
Alex McClay |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 08:39:45
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Edit: Tom's comment makes perfect sense about needing a re-evaluation. A quick look at Iriaebor puts it around 2,000 buildings with a population of 81,000. That's about 40.5 people per building. I am not sure if that density would be too much or not but sounds kinda crazy. However, 3e had it around 16,000 which is about 8 per building. That seems a bit low given the fact of all the rich people having servants. Maybe just the average of the 2?
Consider: how many people live in a common modern house (not Michael Moore's mansion)? How many stories high it is?
And as a naturally occurring modern slum, consider Kowloon the Walled City. How much higher was population density by volume there?
Iriaebor is tall. It's not all spires, but when the land is expensive, 40.5/building average is not much. Considering that even excess of mansions is less of a drop in density when not just the owners, but their families, servants and probably guards (at least some) live in the same building. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 13:27:14
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Edit: Tom's comment makes perfect sense about needing a re-evaluation. A quick look at Iriaebor puts it around 2,000 buildings with a population of 81,000. That's about 40.5 people per building. I am not sure if that density would be too much or not but sounds kinda crazy. However, 3e had it around 16,000 which is about 8 per building. That seems a bit low given the fact of all the rich people having servants. Maybe just the average of the 2?
Consider: how many people live in a common modern house (not Michael Moore's mansion)? How many stories high it is?
And as a naturally occurring modern slum, consider Kowloon the Walled City. How much higher was population density by volume there?
Iriaebor is tall. It's not all spires, but when the land is expensive, 40.5/building average is not much. Considering that even excess of mansions is less of a drop in density when not just the owners, but their families, servants and probably guards (at least some) live in the same building.
I'm not buying that, and on the question of modern people, I know plenty of houses with 2 people in them for modern (nearly every house around me has 2 individuals living in them, granted its older folks). But that's not the realms.
I'd be hard pressed to believe that a city with roughly 2000 buildings has an average of 40 people in each, and I'd also find it rare for a building to be more than 2 stories (maybe 10 percent might go to 3 stories, the problem being if the building is small, the stairs take up so much room that its not worth building higher). Iriaebor may be a little different as its known as the city of a thousand spires, so maybe there's an average of 3 stories (so for every 2 story building there's also a 4 story one). That doesn't count how many of those buildings are businesses and not dwellings (or businesses with dwellings above so a story or two might just be for the business). Also, I know noone has time to sit here and count all these buildings, and I know Iriaeban was throwing out a guess, but just for a "double check" of the 2 thousand number, I did a little extrapolation. I took a section of the top corner and counted it and came up with 118 buildings, which I'm going to round up to 125. I then extrapolate that there's roughly 5 sections of "similar" size in the northern part of the city... so, roughly 625 buildings... and then I look at the middle section and the docks. In looking at the middle section, I counted the eastern side and came up with 173, so rounding that up to 250 just because and noting there's probably 2 more sections of roughly the same size... so 750... and then looking at the docks and I'm going to roughly say half the size of the northern part and round up to say 400. Again, mine's just as much of a guess, but I'm coming up with about 1775. So, Iriaeban did a pretty good guesstimate, and I'd say we're on the underside of 2 thousand rather than above (for the purposes of rounding).
I could buy there being a rough count of as high as 20 individuals per building shown only because its a city known for building upwards, assuming families sharing a room.... and part of that assumption would be that some of these larger block buildings are actually groupings of buildings sharing walls. However even with that number, I only come to 40k. Given that its a town whose population notoriously fluxuates seasonally, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the rooms are empty for a good portion of the time to allow for an influx. Thus, 16k might be on the low side, but its not a bad estimate to tell the truth. I'd probably place it on the 30k side personally. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AlexMcClay2000
Acolyte
Australia
13 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 15:13:58
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quote:
I'm not buying that, and on the question of modern people, I know plenty of houses with 2 people in them for modern (nearly every house around me has 2 individuals living in them, granted its older folks). But that's not the realms.
I'd be hard pressed to believe that a city with roughly 2000 buildings has an average of 40 people in each, and I'd also find it rare for a building to be more than 2 stories (maybe 10 percent might go to 3 stories, the problem being if the building is small, the stairs take up so much room that its not worth building higher). Iriaebor may be a little different as its known as the city of a thousand spires, so maybe there's an average of 3 stories (so for every 2 story building there's also a 4 story one). That doesn't count how many of those buildings are businesses and not dwellings (or businesses with dwellings above so a story or two might just be for the business). Also, I know noone has time to sit here and count all these buildings, and I know Iriaeban was throwing out a guess, but just for a "double check" of the 2 thousand number, I did a little extrapolation. I took a section of the top corner and counted it and came up with 118 buildings, which I'm going to round up to 125. I then extrapolate that there's roughly 5 sections of "similar" size in the northern part of the city... so, roughly 625 buildings... and then I look at the middle section and the docks. In looking at the middle section, I counted the eastern side and came up with 173, so rounding that up to 250 just because and noting there's probably 2 more sections of roughly the same size... so 750... and then looking at the docks and I'm going to roughly say half the size of the northern part and round up to say 400. Again, mine's just as much of a guess, but I'm coming up with about 1775. So, Iriaeban did a pretty good guesstimate, and I'd say we're on the underside of 2 thousand rather than above (for the purposes of rounding).
I could buy there being a rough count of as high as 20 individuals per building shown only because its a city known for building upwards, assuming families sharing a room.... and part of that assumption would be that some of these larger block buildings are actually groupings of buildings sharing walls. However even with that number, I only come to 40k. Given that its a town whose population notoriously fluxuates seasonally, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the rooms are empty for a good portion of the time to allow for an influx. Thus, 16k might be on the low side, but its not a bad estimate to tell the truth. I'd probably place it on the 30k side personally.
One thing that you have to take in mind when looking at Iriaebor is that the middle part of the city, the part that is built on the ridge (Tor), that's the part where the towers are built, quoting VGthSC
"its rocky slopes crowned with the forest of stone towers inhabited by the most successful (most ruthless, many folk would say) merchants."
And the northern part of the city is where the common folk live, laborers, stables, tanneries, slaughterhouses, stockyards, caravan paddocks, warehouses, barge-makers, and other industries, so there would be I imagine 2-3 story buildings over there.
And in the docks, there are warehouses and that sort of stuff.
Not sure how that factors into the population as I'm no expert in that, but I imagine its important to have that info when your thinking about the size of the population. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 16:08:54
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| Yep, I'd bet a lot of that is warehouses, ship building facilities, lumber yards, stables, etc... down by the docks. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if the owners of said facilities didn't let people sleep in the warehouse just to keep an eye on things, unlike our world which has less of a chance of people just showing up to steal (the realms is really rough and tumble, especially since the "local goblins did it", can easily be an excuse to cover a lie). They wouldn't be guards necessarily, but they can go running and screaming down the street if someone comes in to rob the place. I also wouldn't be surprised if a lot of facilities don't have traps in them that would never occur in our world that might be able to be set off by the people sleeping there (as a means to discourage theft... probably nothing that a skilled thief can't detect if he's actually scouting for them, but scouting slows down a heist). In a warehouse, if five people are sleeping in the building, that should be plenty (that might be a small family including kids), of course, this means that some OTHER building's going to have something upwards of like 35 people in it to make up for the average. That's why I have a real problem with the idea of 40. There's going to be some very lightly populated buildings. There will be some with more, but most won't be that full, and some of those buildings in the northern part, given their odd shapes... I'd bet they are really 3 or 4 buildings together OR they are an inn. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 16:28:51
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| Well, if you look at the average building has 3 inhabitable floors, that makes it 13.5 people per floor for 81,000 people. If you go by the summer max of 119,000 (like in FRA), then it would make it just shy of 20 persons per floor. Using the revised number of 16,000, you would have 2.67 people per floor. Iriaebor would be a ghost town at that level. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 17:09:38
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Well, if you look at the average building has 3 inhabitable floors, that makes it 13.5 people per floor for 81,000 people. If you go by the summer max of 119,000 (like in FRA), then it would make it just shy of 20 persons per floor. Using the revised number of 16,000, you would have 2.67 people per floor. Iriaebor would be a ghost town at that level.
I'm betting 2 inhabitable floors and something else on the first floor (shop, tavern, workshop, etc...), with some places 2 stories and some places 4. That would put it a little more (4 people per floor) and I agree... 16k is too light. That's why I'd double it to at least 30k (average of maybe 8 people per floor), with a seasonal high that might go upwards of 50k. I bet at least half the squares in the northern part of the city are actually 2 or 3 buildings, and most of the stuff along the docks is probably only sparsely populated. So, the majority of that population is probably sleeping/living in that northern portion, and a given building up there can have those numbers per floor doubled while the ones along the docks are cut by a third.
BTW, this is an interesting conversation, it brings up some concepts we don't delve into a lot. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 17:59:17
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If we liken the Realms in the 1300s to be like the Middle Ages in Europe; how do populations of cities compare?
London had 80,000 people in the middle ages. Paris up to 200,000? Rome got up to a million and then obviously fell (to 35,000 in the Middle Ages). I'm thinking Calimport could have been a bit more like Rome, Paris like a Waterdeep and London like a Selgaunt?
This would kind of align with some of the early edition populations. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2020 : 00:16:34
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Well, looking at a map of 1300's London at (Wooly, this isn't an ad for anything, just a link for reference. If it still violates, please remove it and accept my apology.) http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/london_1300.htm, the city is about 10,000 ft by 3,000 ft. Doing the same for Iriaebor, it is about 5,000 ft by 3,000 ft.
Now, I am not sure what the building height was in London of that time and that map doesn't show individual buildings so there can't be a count on them so a calculation can't be performed. But, if the average number of inhabitable floors in Iriaebor is twice as many as in 1300's London, then you can have the 81,000 population for Iriaebor. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2020 : 00:58:15
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Well, looking at a map of 1300's London at (Wooly, this isn't an ad for anything, just a link for reference. If it still violates, please remove it and accept my apology.) http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/london_1300.htm, the city is about 10,000 ft by 3,000 ft. Doing the same for Iriaebor, it is about 5,000 ft by 3,000 ft.
No worries. You're clearly not trying to sell some self-published book, as the spammer the other day was. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 May 2020 01:04:44 |
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AlexMcClay2000
Acolyte
Australia
13 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2020 : 01:06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Well, looking at a map of 1300's London at (Wooly, this isn't an ad for anything, just a link for reference. If it still violates, please remove it and accept my apology.) http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/london_1300.htm, the city is about 10,000 ft by 3,000 ft. Doing the same for Iriaebor, it is about 5,000 ft by 3,000 ft.
Now, I am not sure what the building height was in London of that time and that map doesn't show individual buildings so there can't be a count on them so a calculation can't be performed. But, if the average number of inhabitable floors in Iriaebor is twice as many as in 1300's London, then you can have the 81,000 population for Iriaebor.
If I may ask, where did you get the size for Iriaebor? FRA doesn't come with a scale, at least to my knowledge, the best that I could find was the old FR Atlas application, but I find that a bit hard to navigate. |
Alex McClay |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2020 : 07:24:33
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quote:
Originally posted by AlexMcClay2000
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Well, looking at a map of 1300's London at (Wooly, this isn't an ad for anything, just a link for reference. If it still violates, please remove it and accept my apology.) http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/london_1300.htm, the city is about 10,000 ft by 3,000 ft. Doing the same for Iriaebor, it is about 5,000 ft by 3,000 ft.
Now, I am not sure what the building height was in London of that time and that map doesn't show individual buildings so there can't be a count on them so a calculation can't be performed. But, if the average number of inhabitable floors in Iriaebor is twice as many as in 1300's London, then you can have the 81,000 population for Iriaebor.
If I may ask, where did you get the size for Iriaebor? FRA doesn't come with a scale, at least to my knowledge, the best that I could find was the old FR Atlas application, but I find that a bit hard to navigate.
The best part of the FRIA is under the tool bar Info. One is Distance and the other is length along. You can use Distance to measure the straight line distance between two points you click on a map. Length along lets you click on a line like a road that can have curves and then you click on two points on the curved line and it will give you the length on that line between the two points. I used Distance to get the rough length and width of Iriaebor. I have used the Length along to calculate city to city travel times and the grade for the roads to the Tor in Iriaebor (the road on the northeast side of the Tor has a grade of 4% so that would be the easiest road to get a wagon full of goods to the top of the Tor; the maximum grade for a horse pulled wagon is about 9%. A pack horse or horse with rider can do 20% to 30%, depending on the load, for short distances). |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2020 : 17:48:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm not buying that, and on the question of modern people, I know plenty of houses with 2 people in them for modern (nearly every house around me has 2 individuals living in them, granted its older folks). But that's not the realms.
Suburbungalos? Sure. A city on a densely populated island (as a case where land is necessarily expensive) is a very different picture.
quote:
the problem being if the building is small, the stairs take up so much room that its not worth building higher).
This depends on what part of the expenses is the land, doesn't it?
quote:
Iriaebor may be a little different as its known as the city of a thousand spires, so maybe there's an average of 3 stories (so for every 2 story building there's also a 4 story one).
That's quite paltry. Even by standards of bricklaying in our world (XIX-early XX century houses, a lot of which still stand), 3-4 stories are okay - beyond that, could be done, but water pumps won't catch up.
And those methods could not allow crazy things like a web of stone bridges wide enough to be seen as a single iconic landmark invariably associated with the entire town rather than a small part thereof.
The higher land cost and/or tax, the more volume/area ratio makes useful space in low buildings expensive. And we know that in Iriaebor people who can afford expensive houses go for the opposite: the tallest tower their money can buy.
So most are as tall as can be built while keeping the cost reasonable... and some are unreasonably tall instead.
With this setup there may be no 1-2 story buildings at all, except lighter densely packed buildings (mostly warehouses) around the docks and in other cheap areas, and maybe a few old and important ones that just cannot be replaced with something taller (oldest temples?).
Also, Iriaebor was described as a trade hub with ambition to get as big and important as Waterdeep. How tall are buildings in Waterdeep?
It cannot be less tall than that, since all signs point to Iriaebor really pushing it (and having both capabilities and money to keep it up) in this particular area.
quote:
That doesn't count how many of those buildings are businesses and not dwellings (or businesses with dwellings above so a story or two might just be for the business). Also, I know noone has time to sit here and count all these buildings, and I know Iriaeban was throwing out a guess, but just for a "double check" of the 2 thousand number, I did a little extrapolation. I took a section of the top corner and counted it and came up with 118 buildings,
That's another issue, yes.
I wouldn't expect every building to be discernible on that little map, however. Especially when alleys can be quite narrow, and a lot of houses get closer or are are linked above. So, inconclusive. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2020 : 18:06:41
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There is definitely a problem with the map not really matching the description. I had started to redo it with Campaign Cartographer but I just don't seem to have the hang of that program yet and usually end up just giving up after a while.
As for the "bridges" that are mentioned between the towers, they are actually just cross bracing to help keep the over-tall towers from collapsing on their own or being pulled down too easily. In my write up of Iriaebor history, the Banner War of 1351 came to Iriaebor and several towers were pulled down/collapsed because of it. That caused quite a few deaths of innocent townsfolk so they rose up and killed the clowns doing the damage. The following year, laws were passed that required towers to have reinforcing "bridges" between buildings so that things were cross-braced and less likely to just fall down. Of course, thieves didn't mind it because it let them get around a little easier to upper floors of targeted buildings. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2020 : 18:27:41
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
As for the "bridges" that are mentioned between the towers, they are actually just cross bracing to help keep the over-tall towers from collapsing on their own or being pulled down too easily. In my write up of Iriaebor history, the Banner War of 1351 came to Iriaebor and several towers were pulled down/collapsed because of it. That caused quite a few deaths of innocent townsfolk so they rose up and killed the clowns doing the damage. The following year, laws were passed that required towers to have reinforcing "bridges" between buildings so that things were cross-braced and less likely to just fall down. Of course, thieves didn't mind it because it let them get around a little easier to upper floors of targeted buildings.
While I can dig the idea of requiring reinforcing mechanisms on the towers, I would point out that there are a lot of ways to build structurally sound towers that don't involve bracing them up against each other... And forcing them to be braced against each other means that if one falls, it could actually start a chain reaction and cause several others to fall. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2020 : 20:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
As for the "bridges" that are mentioned between the towers, they are actually just cross bracing to help keep the over-tall towers from collapsing on their own or being pulled down too easily. In my write up of Iriaebor history, the Banner War of 1351 came to Iriaebor and several towers were pulled down/collapsed because of it. That caused quite a few deaths of innocent townsfolk so they rose up and killed the clowns doing the damage. The following year, laws were passed that required towers to have reinforcing "bridges" between buildings so that things were cross-braced and less likely to just fall down. Of course, thieves didn't mind it because it let them get around a little easier to upper floors of targeted buildings.
While I can dig the idea of requiring reinforcing mechanisms on the towers, I would point out that there are a lot of ways to build structurally sound towers that don't involve bracing them up against each other... And forcing them to be braced against each other means that if one falls, it could actually start a chain reaction and cause several others to fall.
The reinforcing connections are required every 20 feet. The connection closest to the ground, where the structure is generally the strongest is a tension connection. That will prevent the base of one tower from moving away from the reinforcing structure. The higher connection are compression connections. That way, it helps prevent the tower from moving in the direction of other towers (and thus cause a chain reaction) and if it moves away from the other tower, the bridge detaches and prevents one tower from pulling another one down.
No means is really going to be perfect but these were cheap and relatively easy fixes to apply to existing structures. Merchants tended to build however they wanted and the Council really didn't say too much. Most of the towers that were pulled down in the past didn't cause wide spread damage outside of the Tor (until 1351) so the regular citizens weren't affected as a group. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Ephiron
Acolyte
Czech Republic
9 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2020 : 18:41:09
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| What I do is this. I ask myself, does the figure include only those who live within the city walls or also those outside it? Then I adjust the figures according to what feels right to me. I like to go with higher numbers because there are lots of people living outside the city proper who depend on it (and whom does the city depend on to function) and who otherwise don't exist in stats. Total country population figures are just too vague to place them. |
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Population decline from 2e to the 3e FRCS?
