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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 11:32:15
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This 4e deity (of jailers, torture, and the Underdark) came up in someone's tweet to Ed, asking if he was in the Realms, and he indicated cryptically that the King That Crawls indeed exists in some form. I know in some updates, he's been rebranded a demon lord, but I was curious - how would you all incorporate him?
(Important context: the 4e Underdark book is one of my favorite supplements ever published, and did a ton to make the depths more dynamic and interesting than they've felt for ages. I'd love to have him in Realms canon properly, as he provides a nice counter to Lolth's apparent-monopoly on the "Underdark baddie" title.)
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 12:38:28
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| Another name for Alvarez. |
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lookatroopa
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 13:05:05
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I'd be interested in having Torog around in some fashion, but not as the monolithic, capital T The deity of the Underdark he was kind of billed as in Nerath (can't have that now that Ibrandul's supposedly back, plus I'd rather not have the Underdark be something that's "ruled" over), but rather as something that's managed to creep into the depths of multiple worlds.
Also, I'd prefer it if the more minor "Underdark baddies" that are already there (Blibdoolpoolp, Deep Duerra, maybe Urdlen, etc.) were propped up somewhat ahead of introducing a second big bad to trample over their relevance along with Lolth. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 15:28:12
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
This 4e deity (of jailers, torture, and the Underdark) came up in someone's tweet to Ed, asking if he was in the Realms, and he indicated cryptically that the King That Crawls indeed exists in some form. I know in some updates, he's been rebranded a demon lord, but I was curious - how would you all incorporate him?
(Important context: the 4e Underdark book is one of my favorite supplements ever published, and did a ton to make the depths more dynamic and interesting than they've felt for ages. I'd love to have him in Realms canon properly, as he provides a nice counter to Lolth's apparent-monopoly on the "Underdark baddie" title.)
As far as King that Crawls is concerned, that sounds much like Ibrandul, who was slain and subsumed by Shar in the ToT. Maybe in 5ed, he was "unsubsumed". How to fit in portfolios of jailers and torture is unclear to me. I would outsource those elements to other deities and let Ibrandul return, either as himself or under the alias of Torog. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 15:35:09
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So, take into account that I've literally never heard of him before, so I'm trying to make up something on the fly. Also take into account, Ed's answer on "is X god in the realms" seems to always be "sure, if you want it".... and I agree... the realms is each of our own, and we should make of it that which works for us as we need it.
So, what do I read of this Torog? It was during the dawn war that Torog and another entity known as "Gargash" fought. Apparently Gargash looked like a horn skulled dragon with 3 spined chitinous limbs and walks upright. Torog rips off Gargash's limbs (thus leaving him looking like a legless dragon, which might kind of look naga'ish or kind of Sarrukh'ish). So, Gargash is dying, and he curses Torog to be unable to heal or leave the underdark until the gods and primordials are able to live together in peace. Gargash crawls through the underdark because he can't stand, walk, or fly, as his divinity would normally allow. He thrashes the underdark, tears tunnels, and his blood stains it. Eventually Gargash DOES try to escape, only to find himself bleeding more horribly and he returns to the underdark.
What would I do with this to fit the realm? I say that the above story is an imperfect myth, but it can be tied to existing myths. The most easy one to tie it to is the myth of Jazirian, Shekinester, Ssharstrune, and Parrafaire. Despite people wanting to tie Ssharstrune and Shar together, the portrayal of Ssharstrune is one of a male god who wants to mate. Shekinester chooses Jazirian instead. Ssharstrune attacks Shekinester and is swallowed, but as she cannot destroy him she is being torn asunder into five entities. She expels him and tells her newborn son Parrafaire to hide him away in the underdark.
So, in the realms, I'd probably equate him to Ssharstrune, and I'd further equate Ssharstrune to Merrshaulk. I'd build up the fight between "Gargash" and "Torog" to resemble the infighting between Jazirian and Ssharstrune AND Jazirian and Merrshaulk.
I'd further mirror this into the Maztican pantheon with the god Kukulkan taking the role of Jazirian and Zaltec taking the role of Ssharstrune/Merrshaulk. The goddess Maztica would be one of the five guises of Shekinester and the attack by Zaltec on his mother would be represented by the conflict between Ssharstrune and Shekinester that splits her up (killing Maztica though she continues on in other guises). When Merrshaulk kills Jazirian, that may be mirrored when Kukulkan disappears from the world. In this scenario Qotal = Parrafaire. At one point, Qotal and Zaltec have the humans build a city for the ultimate godly competition between them, and Zaltec bathes the pyramid in blood from sacrifices. Qotal instead shows up and releases butterflies and absorbs/cleans the blood. Zaltec loses. This might be seen as when "Parrafaire takes up the corpse of Ssharstrune and hides it away in the earth". Also, in this scenario, if one looks at the origins of the worship of Zaltec amongst the Nexalans, its humans finding an idol in a "cave in the mountains somewhere in the north"... or in essence to a degree his idol could be construed as possibly in the underdark. Many of the origins of the peoples of Maztica/Anchrome also come from caves in the earth. The need for blood sacrifice would seem to fit Torog, Zaltec, Meershaulk, and possibly Ssharstrune. Furthermore, Zaltec is a god of the night. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 17:08:51
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Gargash was a primordial, in 4e lore. One who wanted to claim the Underdark as its own. He could take any form he wanted. He just took that one for the battle against Torog. And Torog kills Gargash. He es the one who crawls in the Underdark.
Anyways, this is the official art of that battle, from one of the Dungeon mags:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/7/7b/TorogvsGargash.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20171116094003
I, for one, prefer Torog to be his own thing instead of just another ripoff of Shar and Selûne, or any other god of the Realms. According to 4e, Torog destroyed the boundaries between worlds when he tried to escape the Underdark. If you want him on the Realms, this is the way he came in: he just crossed over from another world after destroying the dimensional wall or something. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Apr 2020 17:15:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 17:25:49
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quote:
Originally posted by lookatroopa
Also, I'd prefer it if the more minor "Underdark baddies" that are already there (Blibdoolpoolp, Deep Duerra, maybe Urdlen, etc.) were propped up somewhat ahead of introducing a second big bad to trample over their relevance along with Lolth.
I concur with this part. We also had Ghaunadar, as well as the various deities of other races with strong presences in the Underdark -- like illithids and beholders.
Delnyn also mentioned Ibrandul, who was an Underdark deity... Though I personally don't like the "all the gods are back" thing, because it's way too problematic, Ibrandul is one of the ones I might make an exception for -- but that exception is, in large part, because he was killed by Shar, and the later focus on Shar as the uber-evil of the Realms makes me want to downplay her in every way possible. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 20:51:32
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| Ah that is another advantage of having him as an interloper rather than another name/aspect of a native. He will be a new player, and his relevance will be up to the DM. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2020 : 22:56:25
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| (A note, Sleyvas; Torog is the one who bleeds and crawls all over the Underdark, not Gargash - the latter has been disassembled and turned into a swmi-conscious temple of Torog’s at the lowest level of the Underdark). |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2020 : 00:24:22
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
(A note, Sleyvas; Torog is the one who bleeds and crawls all over the Underdark, not Gargash - the latter has been disassembled and turned into a swmi-conscious temple of Torog’s at the lowest level of the Underdark).
Yeah, sorry, just a name mixup as I was typing. Just wondering, is there any other lore of Gargash other than the fact that he was experimenting on "the children of the gods". Like anything that MIGHT give a hint as to his alignment (at least on the good / evil spectrum)? Experimenting on the children of the gods could also be seen by some as the actions of the creator races. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2020 : 01:46:50
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The other source of information about Gargash and Torog, besides the Underdark book, is an article about Torog in Dungeon 177.
Gargash must be either unaligned or evil, in 4e terms. I'm going with evil, as he was damaging mortals consciously. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2020 : 12:45:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The other source of information about Gargash and Torog, besides the Underdark book, is an article about Torog in Dungeon 177.
Gargash must be either unaligned or evil, in 4e terms. I'm going with evil, as he was damaging mortals consciously.
I would recommend caution here, because its a trap I often fall into as well. Was he "damaging" the mortals? He was experimenting, but he may have been improving them in certain ways, etc... He may have even been trying to remove some evil taint placed within them or somesuch. For instance, taking Sarrukh and turning them into couatls COULD be construed as "experimenting" by some. That being said, thanks for the picture, because now I definitely get the idea that Torog kind of looks more "god of war"/"goliath" looking... at least according to SOME worshippers viewpoints. Oh, and I guess I should go read that article. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2020 : 12:49:49
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| Oh, and one of the things that I'd been kind of discussing in regards the whole "Parrafaire hiding the body of Ssharstrune in the earth" was the idea that Faerzress node might be related to these portions of a primordial being. It might very well be that the blood of the primordial Torog has ties to the creation of Faerzress since its kind of "washed its way throughout the underdark". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2020 : 13:14:43
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Torog suffers from having a name that sounds like it came from a cheap 80s fantasy flick. I just can't take him seriously.
The other issue is that he's treading on the feet of other deities. Afflux, Shax, Alvarez, Loviatar and the dozens of underdark gods already exist. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2020 : 16:57:12
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Torog suffers from having a name that sounds like it came from a cheap 80s fantasy flick. I just can't take him seriously.
It bugs me because there's a Pathfinder deity named Torag. Pathfinder does the one pantheon for everyone thing (kinda like Dragonlance); Torag is the main deity for dwarves. |
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Torog
