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Originally posted by Delnyn

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

Almost... You're a 20th level PC to start in a beginners epic game and this is your lot in life. You cannot start the Module and connect with your future companions unless you choose one of these limited class combos. That is it. Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before?

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Let us focus on your very own term "beginners epic game". That is an extraordinarily awkward combination, especially knowing this game is D&D 3.5 edition. Yes, I have played a limited class, restricted pre-option game multiple times. The ones that lasted more than 3 hours always started at Level 1 where restricted options make sense. Starting straight at level 20 has all the feel of a video game where the player can

• save at any moment
• pause the game
• turn off the computer for however long
• boot up the computer and log into the game
• then resume play as if nothing had happened in that indefinite time period the computer was off.

By starting at Level 1, the DM can set the tone of the setting and its axioms (a.k.a., the rationale behind limited classes and restricted pre-option). There is something unforced about assumptions when characters start at Level 1 and 0 XP because it is clear they are starting with a clean slate. Starting at Level 20 forces the DM to pull all these ninja tricks as to how and why the characters got into their position, for good or for ill. Otherwise, the game devolves into the feel of a pause and restart video game.

If your DM and the other players - whose styles you have known for years - are comfortable with the parameters you described, by all means go ahead. My 38 years of D&D experience suggest you start at Level One. That goes double for 3.5 edition, which is notorious for Rocket Tag power mechanics at Level 20+. I would not bother joining such a game.

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Originally posted by Tasker Daze

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before?

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yes. but there were more choices and a more believable plot.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

I... I legitimately can't tell if you're trolling. The wizard is, by far, the most powerful class in the game, only equalled by CoDzilla and the Arcanist. He has so many ways to murder a rogue 10 that it isn't funny.

A rogue 10/sor 10 will have terrible bab, poor spellcasting, and is likely having to deal with the wizard shrugging off his sneak attacks assuming the wizard isn't outright immune. Meanwhile, the wizard will auto win against your buffs.

How can you claim to eat and breathe the 3.5e system without knowing that casters are the most powerful thing in the game? It just doesn't add up, especially in epic where epic spellcasting is so easily broken.

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

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Originally posted by LordofBones

Also, I get the feeling that CEV doesn't really get the min-max thing. It doesn't really mean what he thinks it means. Min-max would be getting a rogue/wizard hybrid to hit 9th level spells and the maximum possible sneak attack damage. Like, if you legitimately think that a Rogue 10 with 5th level spells is more powerful than a 20th level spellcaster with full caster progression and 9th level casting, you don't understand the system. Spells scale exponentially. At 5th level spells, you create cones of cold. At 9th level, you can recreate Ragnarok.

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WOW... are you just reading black and white rules to me? Anyone who knows how to play a Rogue 10/ Sorcerer 10 can take out a 20th level wizard if you use your brain. I adore how you think a wizard who casts 9th level spells is the ultimate, unbeatable thing ever.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

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Originally posted by LordofBones

Also, I get the feeling that CEV doesn't really get the min-max thing. It doesn't really mean what he thinks it means. Min-max would be getting a rogue/wizard hybrid to hit 9th level spells and the maximum possible sneak attack damage. Like, if you legitimately think that a Rogue 10 with 5th level spells is more powerful than a 20th level spellcaster with full caster progression and 9th level casting, you don't understand the system. Spells scale exponentially. At 5th level spells, you create cones of cold. At 9th level, you can recreate Ragnarok.

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WOW... are you just reading black and white rules to me? Anyone who knows how to play a Rogue 10/ Sorcerer 10 can take out a 20th level wizard if you use your brain. I adore how you think a wizard who casts 9th level spells is the ultimate, unbeatable thing ever.

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I adore how you think a rogue with poor BAB, half progression sneak attack and 5th level spells is going to be anything other than a minor nuisance to the wizard. Or cleric. Or druid.

Objectively, you don't actually have anything that can harm a wizard. High level play in 3.5 is rocket tag, and wizards simply have too many advantages, from project image and his choice of murder spells, to celerity and his choice of murder spells, to shape change and eating you alive, to mordenkainen's disjunction and his choice of murder spells.

The cardinal rule of 3.5 is don't give up caster levels. You seem to think that the rogue is a powerful class, but it really isn't. You lurk in Giant in the Playground CEV, you should know how 3.5 is like.

There's a reason why theurge classes are seen as poor CEV. If mystic theurge and true necromancers are seen as inferior to pure arcane casters and divine casters, what makes you think that your rogue 10/sorc 10 is in any way better?

Seriously, go read up on the 3.5 class tier list.

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Seriously, go read up on the 3.5 class tier list.

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

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Originally posted by LordofBones

I... I legitimately can't tell if you're trolling. The wizard is, by far, the most powerful class in the game, only equalled by CoDzilla and the Arcanist. He has so many ways to murder a rogue 10 that it isn't funny.

A rogue 10/sor 10 will have terrible bab, poor spellcasting, and is likely having to deal with the wizard shrugging off his sneak attacks assuming the wizard isn't outright immune. Meanwhile, the wizard will auto win against your buffs.

How can you claim to eat and breathe the 3.5e system without knowing that casters are the most powerful thing in the game? It just doesn't add up, especially in epic where epic spellcasting is so easily broken.

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Bwahahaha.... You slay me truly. Your 20th level wizard is certainly not the Alpha or Omega in the game. How can your 20th level wizard shrug off sneak attacks from a 10th level rogue when your Reflex score is ultimately weak? Not to mention a really poor Fortitude score as well. You seem to treat multi-class characters like they're worthless and sub-par. And yes I know what Min/Max means, thank you. I can assure you that my 10th level Rogue/ 10th level Sorcerer will be maxed to the teeth in any game I play, that will crush a solid 20th level wizard.

In the end my friend, it all comes down to how you play the character in question. What gear you have, and how you use your skills, feats, skill-tricks and skill-feats, etc...

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

I'm presenting a challenge in this thread. That's all. Quite simple. Didn't expect 4 pages of people telling me I'm wrong. lol.

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Originally posted by Demzer

Wow, this thread has gone places ...

Anyway I should be "smart working" in this f***ing pandemic but I've given up today and I'm bored so I'll throw my hat in here.

I'm not voting in the poll because there is nothing appealing to me and the situation is a bit stretching my perception of what's feasible in the Realms that are presented to us in game supplements and novels.

That's what I think most people are trying to point out: while there are occasional rare times in which villains manage to capture high profile individuals it's basically never straight up level 20 or above people because the power and resources available to those people and to captors capable of capturing and keeping them enslaved throw a wrench into the economic and social meaning of the word "slavery".

To give an example: a scheming lich with its demon/devil allies and a bunch of high level goons (the "mini-bosses") might have a reason to kidnap the king/queen/prince/famous poet/heroin/High Priest/whatever of a nation for whatever reason.
But it's for a specific reason, they're not slavers as in "making a living in trafficking sentient livestock". They've got resources and motivations that make unbelievable the fact that they might pursue the path of slavery.

I see only one possibility to make the actual situation believable and that's for the PC(s) to be champion gladiators. This to me opens up the chances of having someone high level (don't know about level 20 ...) being enslaved to someone else but it means dropping the elf requirement and spellcasting classes from the possibilities for the very simple reason that Thayan notoriously don't trust elves as slaves and don't trust spellcasters as slaves (too many options for the slave to break free and the Thayan noble / Red Wizard has better things to do than keep a close eye on his/her slaves every waking hour).
Also Skullport is not really a place renowned for gladiatorial fights (and getting someone enslaved up in the Fields of Triumph is preposterous) so I would move the scenario to Calimshan.

In this different frame I would see a chance for high level roguish and fightery types (with all declinations of both in terms of base classes and PrCs) being enslaved and using the chance of the long trip and the negotiations between their Thayan "sponsor" and some Pasha from Manshaka to break free.

That was for the actual poll, now for what the thread devolved into I would advise everyone against trying to explain why their play style is better than others or why their interpretation of the rules is better than others because we all have different play styles and different house rules that work at our own tables with our friends but not with others or at organised play events (conventions, RPGA). And at the end of the day, we will probably keep playing with our own friends and so it's better to agree to disagree at some point.

Also, not that anyone should bother with me, but I intensely dislike discussions on min/max-ing and this is stronger than that because there are countless "ifs" and "buts" and they all come down to how the situation actually plays at the table.
Nobody that I know or have heard of plays D&D like some sort of Mortal Kombat pen & paper equivalent and that's why min/max-ing shows its limits.

Carry on

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Originally posted by LordofBones


Rogues/arcane casters multiclasses can and do work, but a straight rogue x/sorc x isn't one of those ways.

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by LordofBones


Rogues/arcane casters multiclasses can and do work, but a straight rogue x/sorc x isn't one of those ways.

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Rogue 3/Wizard 7/Spellwarp Sniper 5/War Weaver 5 might work. I mean, a LOT of the Rogue-ish stuff is snuffed out with spells BUT there's a LOT going for this build. Why I've chosen these Prestige Classes is that 1) they're super easy to get into, requiring simple ranks in skills both the Rogue and Wizard easily get AND because of their rather amazing abilities. The Spellwarp Sniper adds the Rogue's sneak attack (at +2d6) to his sudden Raystrike spells (an additional +2d6). But the ability to Spellwarp area spells of up to 5th level is pretty awesome. In the end, it adds some power to you're touch spells, adds some versatility to how you deal with area spells and it's a 2/3 BAB class with full-caster progression.

The second is War Weaver and, well there's a whole darn Handbook about its effectiveness. You create a weave (and in the Forgotten Realms, I always pictured this class as someone bending/using Mystra's Weave in this effect) to tether a bunch of your allies to spells you throw into it. Then all at once you can disperse ALL of the spells from Polymorph to Greater Invisibility to even Healing spells if you've taken the Arcane Disciple feat and worship a god with the Healing domain. The power and versatility of this is just crazy.


In the end, this combination has FAR more to do with spell manipulation and casting than it ever does with jumping into melee and getting stabby. Probably because it's WAAY easier to do more damage from 300-ft. away while invisible and has a greater chance of success when you're hitting their touch AC. Would you rather have a max of 5th level spell but have +5d6 Sneak Attack OR would you rather have a spellwarped Heightened Fireball that you can throw from hundreds of feet away that deals 14d6 with a ranged touch?

Another option, although one significantly less powerful, is to use Rogue/Warmage/Spellwarp Sniper/War Weaver. The problem is that while you're adding slightly more damage your versatility goes down significantly.

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

Or better yet... How about your 20th level wizard vs. options above in the poll. I'll take Favored Soul 7/ Magical Trickster 3/ Sacred Fist 10. So I'd be a 19'th level divine caster against your 20th level arcane caster and I can fight melee like a 13th level monk essentially. lol.

But your wizard would destroy me I'm sure. lol.

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire


A Favored Soul 7/ Magical Trickster 3/ Sacred Fist 10... So I'd be a 19'th level divine caster against your 20th level arcane caster and I can fight melee like a 13th level monk essentially. Not to mention my class abilities, personal feats and skills... Skill-Feats and Skill-Tricks on top of all that jazz to boot. Maybe I have a Template as well? idk.

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

Some people are afraid of LA's because they level up slower than normal, but I say it's worth it if you know how to play D&D and play smart. Your CR is NOT who you are, but what can be expected of you in an encounter.

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire


I see nothing wrong with the build above. Actually... ALL my Sacred Fist options in the poll have great benefits for any PC who takes that multi-class combo.

Do they all have their weaknesses?... yes, surely. But the benefits of any class combo given should be sufficient enough to play the PC and escape for at least 1 city block before your party arrives and takes you in.

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Originally posted by Diffan

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire


A Favored Soul 7/ Magical Trickster 3/ Sacred Fist 10... So I'd be a 19'th level divine caster against your 20th level arcane caster and I can fight melee like a 13th level monk essentially. Not to mention my class abilities, personal feats and skills... Skill-Feats and Skill-Tricks on top of all that jazz to boot. Maybe I have a Template as well? idk.

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Well....um there are some issues here. 1st, you'd be a 17th level caster and wouldn't access 9th level spells.

2nd, Favored Souls are notorious for their bad casting as their spells per day require Charisma investment but the DCs are based off of Wisdom (super dumb IMO). So they're MAD on TOP of being MAD with the focus on Monk (one of the worst 3.5 base classes) who needs good Dex, Wisdom, and some Constitution. Charisma is considered a dumb stat for them, and now you're basing your spells off it?

3rd, while you have one or two MAIN features like Inner Armor for that Spell Resistance and your AC will be pretty darn impressive....a 20th level wizard doesn't bother with HP damage to thwart enemies.

A wizard that goes first for Initiative, and to be honest there's no reason to think they won't with Improved Initiative, Knauper's Skittish Nerves, and a decent Dex a score, won't simply Time Stop, Forcecage (windowless cell) you, then teleport without error the cell to the bottom of the Sea of Fallen Stars.

The thing is with these exercises, its all about who can pull out the biggest guns the fastest. I'm inclined to believe the Wizard has more tools to achieve that because their needs in other areas is less than a Divine monk with decent skills. Ultimately you have to draw up two stat blocks and then do a round-by-round of turns to see who "wins".

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

Some people are afraid of LA's because they level up slower than normal, but I say it's worth it if you know how to play D&D and play smart. Your CR is NOT who you are, but what can be expected of you in an encounter.

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LA as in Level Adjustment? I think they can be OK if you're allowed to buy them off as you continue to advance, and I'd generally never go higher than a LA +2 because it's usually not worth the trade off for class levels or a slower advancement.

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Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire


I see nothing wrong with the build above. Actually... ALL my Sacred Fist options in the poll have great benefits for any PC who takes that multi-class combo.

Do they all have their weaknesses?... yes, surely. But the benefits of any class combo given should be sufficient enough to play the PC and escape for at least 1 city block before your party arrives and takes you in.

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Most 20th level characters have a chance of that happening, I'd say even basic Fighters stand a decent chance.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

There's a disparity between the Sacred Fist spells per day text and table, which is where the confusion starts.

Fundentally it's still a spontaneous MAD divine caster against a prepared arcane caster.

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