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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 07:18:54
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Is there any way I could get a brief summary of the situation with the yuan-ti patron god(s)? The material on the wiki seems a little contradictory, and the FRCG lists them both as separate gods.
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 15:23:30
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I will just say its convoluted, and honestly it confuses me too (which theories of the divine seemingly always will be). One of my current favorite spins is equating Valigan Thirdborn and Cyric and Loki as beings with some kind of "ties", and to mirror the imprisoning of Loki to the imprisoning of Cyric by Tyr, Lathander, and Sune…. and noting there was the placing of a snake to torment him. I kind of wonder if Valigan long ago may not have been similarly entrapped by Tyr and Lathander and Sune.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 01:58:16
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Great Reader Dallison,
I agree with the geographic distances part, as well as the disjointed time frame. Frankly, the silliness of certain gods dropping in at different times makes no sense to me. I think WotC needs to do a reboot claiming that it was all just "one big, bad nightmare." lol
I think the only good thing that could come of all this is to use it all as mysterious myths that may or may not have some grounding in fact and use that to spawn other stories, etc. I mean, everything shouldn't be figured out in the end anyhow.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I have a take that makes a few assumptions.
Number 1 - the novels are lies or factually uninformed
Number 2 - gods cant appear on the material plane directly and avatars have been summoned
Number 3 - gods cant exist without worshippers so aspects are out and most of the God nonsense.
Number 4 - gods don't talk to worshippers directly
So we know that mershaulk was the God of the yuan-ti in mhairshaulk. I do not see how he could be the God of the Lothian sarrukh or the isstosseffifil sarrukh given the time of his creation and the geographic distances of the empire.
So mershaulk enters an eternal slumber and the empire of mhairshaulk falls.
20000 years later some guy named sseth appears and claims to be mershaulk reborn. The yuan ti start worshipping him as a God and he royally kicks human butt and carves out an empire for the snake men.
Sseth then vanishes.
A thousand years later a mulhorandi outcast godking that lives on the material plane and has very few worshippers claims to have bound sseth in eternal slumber (sound familiar to mershaulk fate) and is stealing his power and worshippers.
Now my solution is that Sseth was Set, trying to get new worshippers among the yuan ti to elevate himself to true godhood (the other God kings were about to do the same and walled themselves up in their towers and weren't seen for a thousand years).
Set succeeds but before he can ascend he succumbs to the same eternal slumber curse that struck mershaulk.
Now in the modern times, Set has a divine champion of sorts called Seti. It is Seti that follows Sets journey across the south and stumbles upon his slumbering body (the yuan ti believe Set is Sseth).
Seti starts draining Sseth/Set of his power with the aid of Okothian sarrukh who have at last returned to faerun.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 23:55:18
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ell, it's canon Zehir was just Set reinventing himself, as suggested in the 5E DMG, and confirmed by Thomas M. Costa:
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Set became Zehir in 4E to survive as one of the Faerunian pantheon.
With Sseth, it was stated in Serpent Kingdoms that Set just imprisoned/subsumed him, and impersonates him...but other materials also implied or outright stated Sseth and Merrshaulk are separate beings, with Sseth just subsumed Merrshaulk on Abeir-Toril.
So I think it's reasonable to have the "Sseth" imprisoned by Set to be Merrshaulk, while Sseth we know and Set being one and the same.
Or take the solution Gary suggested, and just have "Zehir" be Set getting back at least some worshipers from Seti.
Especially if I remember right, I discovered some time ago Storm of Zehir was originally supposed to be Storm of Sseth, and feature Sseth as the main villain, but WOTC forced Zehir to be the main villain.
And the game ironically though even foreshadows Zehir and Set being one and the same being - as it a scene that is a prophecy (along with the prophecy of the Spellplague) of Zehir overcoming Horus-Re, something hat has sense with Set.
(And originally, this would be Sseth in the prophecy, further tying him with Set.) |
Edited by - Baltas on 13 Mar 2020 00:10:20 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 01:37:23
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Senior Scribe Baltas,
I always find it odd when an impersonation occurs, outside of a deity such as Mask, Leira, etc. They are in the same group as deities, so it seems odd they can impersonate and even redirect worship. That's why I feel there is just something wrong with consistency here. Especially with what you outlined.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 02:18:21
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| As someone who hates the weird dominance the ahistorical "snake Set" that Conan has inflicted on pop culture, I'd be quite content to have the struggle be between Merrshaulk (whose name is just a lot of fun to read and type, honestly) and the interloper Zehir. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 09:09:11
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Learned Scribe keftiu,
Well, I can appreciate that, however, I loved that from Conan! :) haha
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2020 : 08:37:01
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Sorry for the late reply.
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
As someone who hates the weird dominance the ahistorical "snake Set" that Conan has inflicted on pop culture, I'd be quite content to have the struggle be between Merrshaulk (whose name is just a lot of fun to read and type, honestly) and the interloper Zehir.
To be fair, Set the Serpent God of Robert Howard, is not entirely ahistorical - it's ultimately a result of Hellenic syncretization of and reinterpetation (Interpretatio graeca) of the Egyptian Pantheon - Set being specifically identified and conflated by Ancients Greeks (and in Ptolemaic Kingdom) with Typhon, who is a lot like Ribert Howard's Set - a monstrous serpentine being, with hundred of dragon/serpent heads heads, enemy of gods and men.
This started at least since 6th century BC. This is why Pindar has the Gods flee to Egypt from Typhon, and as further Nicander elaborated, the gods transform into animal forms when they fleed to Egypt - Apollo became a hawk (Horus or Re, probably Ra-Horakhty), Hermes an ibis (Thoth), Ares a fish, Artemis a cat (Sekhmet?), Dionysus a goat, Heracles a fawn, Hephaestus an ox, and Leto a mouse etc.
Herodotus himself directly identified Typhon with Set, naming him the second to last divine king of Egypt. Herodotus says that Typhon was deposed by Osiris' son Horus (whom Herodutus equated with Apollo) - with Osiris being equated with Dionysus (makes lot more sense, seeing Dionysus was probably originally also the god of the dead before Hades during the Mycenaean civilization and possibly earlier.).
The conflation/syncretization of Set with Typhon, and Dionysus with Osiris, was present in Orphism, were Zagreus (Dionysus) was torn apart by Typhon and the Titans.
This identification became strong enough that the Set animal, was known as the Typhonian animal or Typhonic beast.
It's even present in the Realms - as Set, outside of Mulhorand (including Thay, Unther, and Chessenta) as Typhon.
When discussion it with Gary, I suggested the Mulhorandi Set, could have subsumed at some point around a Yuan-ti Anathema named Typhon, but which resulted in a number of Typhon's personality traits being retained by Set, and it being the basis for his serpentine aspect.
(We also discussed that Typhon doesn't exactly sound much serpentine, so I suggested another form of it - Typhoeus, or maybe even "Typhoeuss" as the name of the Anathema - who themselves seem to be inspired by the descriptions of Typhon.)
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Senior Scribe Baltas,
I always find it odd when an impersonation occurs, outside of a deity such as Mask, Leira, etc. They are in the same group as deities, so it seems odd they can impersonate and even redirect worship. That's why I feel there is just something wrong with consistency here. Especially with what you outlined.
Best regards,
Well, as I mentioned, originally Sseth, or rather Set as Sseth was the villain of the Storm of Zehir, WotC urged Obsidian to include Zehir as he was a 4E deity, hence they created a plotline of Zehir being a new god, an interloper at odds with Sseth, despite in the game there still being hints the antagonist is the Mulhorandi god Set.
As the vision specifically stated
quote:
You see a land far to the east, an ancient nation of sun and sand.
A statue to a hawk-headed god lies shattered, his priest slaughtered by Yuan-ti warriors.
The image shifts to that of another plane, were the sun never sets. You see the broken body of a beautiful woman, her divine essence slowly dissipating.
Nearby, you see that hawk-headed god locked in combat with a massive snake - and it's clear the snake is winning.
It's visible the vision is a remain of the original story of the game, were Set was the main villain - the "ancient nation of sun and sand" is Mulhorand, and there are Set's Yuan-ti slaughtering Horus-Re's priesthood to weaken him. The "another plane, were the sun never sets" is Heliopolis, the dying beautiful goddess is probably Isis, while the hawk-headed god is Horus-Re - fighting Set (Set in his guise of Sseth), and losing due to the loss or worshipers - with Set basically slaughtering his own pantheon.
As you mentioned though, the changes of Set/Sseth to Zehir, and Sseth-Zehir conflict, complicates things, but this could be solved in several ways for example:
- Set is driven mad from the number of aspects he attained after subsuming Sseth, hence causing a civil war between his spit divine personalities (Something similar happened with Zinzerena and Lolth)
- Sseth or Merrshaulk using the name Sseth is breaking free of Set, so he created a new persona - Zehir. |
Edited by - Baltas on 24 Mar 2020 09:00:12 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2020 : 12:27:06
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| Holy Frijole Baltas…. I had not ever noticed the tie you gave of Set having the name Typhon in Unther and Thay as an alias. This was because I don't recognize Typhon as a Greek entity name. However, in P&P there's listed the aliases of Set and they are Typhon and GILGEAM. Suddenly the "who is returned as Gilgeam in 5e question" just got another entry. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2020 : 14:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Suddenly the "who is returned as Gilgeam in 5e question" just got another entry.
And it makes more sense than Bane... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2020 : 07:00:12
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Master Zeromaru X,
No lie there. This whole Dead Three thing that has been going on keeps getting weaker and weaker to me, after having read some of your material and others, on it.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2020 : 12:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Suddenly the "who is returned as Gilgeam in 5e question" just got another entry.
And it makes more sense than Bane...
It could... I still note Maldraedior knowing of a weapon that can kill Gilgeam called "the Banespear", and the fact that the largest temple of Bane is right outside of Unther, and that both gods are noted Tyrants. However, my goals are to find a solution that makes the most people agreeable to the solution. I that means "hey, put Set in charge of Unther posing as Gilgeam, and possibly reigniting a war with Mulhorand"... I could be good with that. Then again, we do have the option of keeping Set separate as an entity. Mulling over which sounds better. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 15:40:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Holy Frijole Baltas…. I had not ever noticed the tie you gave of Set having the name Typhon in Unther and Thay as an alias. This was because I don't recognize Typhon as a Greek entity name. However, in P&P there's listed the aliases of Set and they are Typhon and GILGEAM. Suddenly the "who is returned as Gilgeam in 5e question" just got another entry.
Well yes it is a serious possibility, seeing Set pretended to be Gilgeam since his death - especially seeing this Gilgeam is noted to be clean-shaven and has shaved hair, something Mulhorandi Gods and mortals do.
I also think the new Gilgeam might be the son of the old/real Gilgeam, seeing it's noted noted he calls himself the Son of Victory - compare it to the Old Gilgeam's title of the Father of Victory. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 02:03:17
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Senior Scribe Baltas,
Yeah, that is odd, especially when you look at the whole Tiamat element to it. Strange things sometimes with how the lore plays out.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Set/Sseth/Zehir?
