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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
920 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Mar 2020 : 19:57:32
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First, Happy Pi Day to everyone at Candlekeep!
Here are some answers to Diffan's questions, addressed by point.
2. The Moon Elf Fighter 1/Wizard 1 has the following:
BAB+1
Fort+2/Ref+0/Will+2
Leve1 1 generic feat/Level 1 bonus fighter feat/Scribe Scroll
10+Con hit points
three 0-level spells, one 1-level spell, summon familiar
Skill Points: (2+Int)X4 for fighter 1 plus (2+Int)X4 for wizard 1. (Note: Try not to overlap skills between classes. That will waste precious skill points. Use wizard for Concentration, Knowledge, Spellcraft and fighter for Jump, Ride, Intimidate for example)
The moon elf has character level 1, not character level 2. Since Wizard is a favored class for elves and the fighter class and wizard class are at same level, no 20% XP penalty applies. Our elf only needs 2,000 XP to advance to Level 2.
6. Let's skip to the eldritch knight example.
The prerequisites are taken from DMG 3.5 page 188:
Must be proficient with all martial weapons.
Must be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells.
The second prerequisite requires Wizard 5, so I need to edit the example's class levels. One level in fighter is sufficient to satisfy the first prerequisite for martial weapon proficiencies.
Here is the Moon Elf Fighter 1/Wizard 5 before taking the first level in eldritch knight.
BAB+2 (not BAB+3)
Fort+2/Ref+1/Will+4 (Not Fort+3/Ref+1/Will+4)
Level 1 and Level 3 generic feats (no Level 6 generic feat because character level is 5)/level 1 bonus fighter feat/Scribe Scroll/level 5 bonus wizard feat
4+Con plus 4X(2+Con)=12+(5XCon) hit points (Because of overlap, you do not add the 10+Con hit points from the fighter level.)
Spells/Day: 4 0-level, 3 1-level, 2 2-level, 1 3-level plus bonus from Int,summon familiar
Skill Points: (2+Int)X4 for fighter plus (2+Int)X8 for wizard. Let's assume the elf does not overlap skills between the two classes.
Our elf need 6,000 XP to advance to level 6 and get first level as eldritch knight. Let's check our moon elf Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 1.
BAB+3 (prestige class bonuses stack with core bonuses)
Fort+4/Ref+1/Will+4
Level 1,3,6 generic feats/Level 1 bonus fighter feat/Scribe Scroll/level 5 bonus wizard feat/bonus eldritch knight feat
12+(5XCon) hit points plus (6+Con) hit points
Spells/Day: 4 0-level, 3 1-level, 2 2-level, 1 3-level plus bonus from Int,summon familiar
Skill Points: (2+Int)X4 for fighter plus (2+Int)X8 for wizard plus (2+Int) for eldritch knight. Let's assume the elf does not overlap skills between the fighter and wizard classes. The elf may stack skill points to fighter and/or wizard skill points as he or she sees fit.
The elf needs 7,000 XP to advance to Level 7. However per Point #7, if the elf does not advance to eldritch knight 2, then our poor fellow is forever barred from ever again advancing in eldritch knight and gets a 90% XP penalty indefinitely. He or she may advance to character level 9 and forego the level 9 generic feat to remove the 90% penalty.
4. Yes, it makes slightly easier for humans to multiclass.
This question reminds me of a minor but potentially brutal house rule: Q: What happens if your character incurs a 100% or greater penalty from ditching prestige classes and having non-favored class levels differ by more than two?
A: Congratulations! You just retired your PC!
I do remind the player about this before they make such a commitment. If they want to retire, the character becomes an NPC and may even be hired or even become a cohort under the rules of feat Leadership.
5. Yes, I use elite array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Assign any score to any ability, then apply racial modifiers.
8. Here is an example of the skill house rule. Lets us suppose a 2nd level sorceror with a 15 intelligence and 5 ranks in Spellcraft tries to decipher a gate spell written on a scroll without benefit of read magic.
This would give a Spellcraft DC of 29. Our sorcerer would have a skill stat of Spellcraft +7. In RAW, the sorcerer would succeed if the sorcerer rolled at natural 20. Unless the encounter somehow (even if indirectly) ties into a struggle between Tymora and Beshaba, I rule this as impossible for a 2nd level sorcerer to pull off. He or she could pull it off at 6th level and 29-20 = 9 skill ranks in Spellcraft.
I do in fact allow mitigating measures for requisite ranks. Having 5 or more ranks in Knowledge(arcana) reduces required ranks by 2 (think synergy bonus). Skill Focus (spellcraft) would reduce required ranks by 3. The logic applies to other synergy relations, feats and class features. If our sorcerer has 5 ranks in Knowledge(arcana) and the Magical Aptitude feat (+2 bonus on Use magic Device and Spellcraft), then the effective required Spellcraft ranks would be 5. Our sorcerer could attempt to decipher the spell with a chance of success. His bonus would be +11 and will succeed on a natural 18 or higher.
9. This one is where I took a long look and spent much time in consideration. Diffan is right. This is an unnecessary gimp on barbarians. With the Candlekeep scribes as my witness, I will officially exempt rage, frenzy and the like from this rule effective today.
As far as the bonus spell slot issue is concerned, after a few encounters with overzealous rules-lawyering power-gamering murderhobos, I felt compelled to spell it out for all to see. My apologies to the scribes who believe this rule should be considered implied and therefore automatic.
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Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
1. The 2ed concept of kits is very much alive. If you really want to play gish, consider a core class like a duskblade. Multiclass fighter/wizard is perfectly OK, but consider Point #2.
2. Levels, base attack bonus, skill points/ranks overlap-not stack!- for core classes. Character level is the maximum level for any one core class (assuming no prestige classes). You don't get extra feats for multiclassing.
I'm not quite certain I follow the method here? So at 1st level my Moon Elf Fighter (BAB +1, Fort +2/Ref +0/Will +0, 2+Int skills x4, one bonus fighter feat) then decides that he's smart enough to take on the responsibilities of an Apprentice and gains enough XP for level 2. He takes his 1st level of Wizard. Normally his BAB is still +1, Fort +2/Ref +0 but his Will goes to +2 due to the wizard. He'll have 10+con HP plus 2 (half of d4) +Con for his next level. He still gets three 0-level spells, One 1st-level spell. What changes in your game?
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Originally posted by Delnyn
3. Hit points are deterministic just like they are in 4ed. PC's receive maximum hit points at first class and half maximum after that. The credo is a disinterested third party must be able to reverse engineer a character. No. Rolling. Allowed. Period.
This is usually the method I use for our D&D games (regardless of Edition) though if they're really adamant about rolling, they can roll for HP in front of me and take the result. It's usually not worth it from my experience.
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Originally posted by Delnyn
4. Humans do not get a bonus feat at 1st level nor bonus skill points. They get a second favored core class instead.
So this make them multiclass easier?
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
5. Abilities scores are based upon the elite array. Refer to the credo in Point #3 and put it in bold italic font.
So depending on edition: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8?
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Originally posted by Delnyn
6. Prestige classes work like core classes. Per point #2, it may get a wee bit harder to qualify. The overlap policy applies to multiple prestige glasses as they do to multiple core classes. The overlap among core classes is stacked with the overlap among prestige classes. Character level is the maximum core class level plus the maximum prestige class level, with attendant restrictions on the number of feats.
Still kinda confused. So my Elf mage/fighter from earlier example that wants to go into Eldritch Knight would look like what by say, 6th level? Normally they'd go Elf Fighter 4/ Wizard 2/ Eldritch Knight 1 (BAB +6; Fort +6/Ref +1/Will +4; 3 Bonus fighter feats, summon familiar, scribe scroll, 1 bonus Fighter feat from EK, and Four 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells).
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Originally posted by Delnyn
7.Put prestige into prestige classes. Prestige classes with five or fewer levels are treated as usual. Six or more levels, however, mean the character-and player!-are committed to the last level. If the character leaves the prestige class before taking the final level, they may no longer advance in the prestige class just like leaving the paladin or monk class. Furthermore, the character is levied a 10% XP penalty for each level before 10th that was skipped. Players who want to remove this penalty must advance their character level so they can get another feat. The player may choose to forgo the feat to remove the penalty.
I certainly wouldn't be opposed to this rule. I really sort of hate Dipping.
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Originally posted by Delnyn
8. The untrained versus trained rules for skill checks stay, but with additional restrictions. Subtract 20 from DC's 21 or greater to determine the minimum number of ranks in the relevant skill to have any chance of success. Sorry, natural 20 is not an automatic success.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to accomplish? Usually you can't even try to attempt a skill if it requires training (like Open Lock) so a Fighter with a Dex of 20 (+5 bonus) attempts to Open Lock and rolls a 19 (24 total) it's reduced to a new total of 4? Not that people usually attempt things untrained to begin with...
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Originally posted by Delnyn
9. Temporary ability score increases never affect hit points, skill points, access to spells and psionic powers or bonus spell slots or power points per day.
That's a real hit to the Barbarian, unless his rage just provides Temp HP in a more standardized way? otherwise, I can see this as a good thing. Though you normally don't get bonus spell slots from temporary bonuses anyways.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 08:00:26
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Delnyn, thank you for the responses. I understand now what you mean by they don't stack but overlap. Thus an 8th level Fighter's BAB will only ever go to 9 if they take another level of Fighter or have another class exceed the Fighter by 8 levels with a full BAB (excluding Prestige Classes). Also, one of the issues I always had with 3.5 was how no one pretty much enforced the Multiclass restrictions of 1 level between them (minus your favored class). I get most play humans, which mitigates this somewhat but I usally have to throw in that reminder when I DM'ed 3.5
I like how your skill system works, especially that things which are linked help make those checks stronger. Since doing more 13th Age, where the SKill System is really sort of ad-hoc - you get a small statistical bonus but the player needs to determine how it applies to the situation - I really like the free-form this provides. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 02:10:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Delnyn, thank you for the responses. I understand now what you mean by they don't stack but overlap. Thus an 8th level Fighter's BAB will only ever go to 9 if they take another level of Fighter or have another class exceed the Fighter by 8 levels with a full BAB (excluding Prestige Classes). Also, one of the issues I always had with 3.5 was how no one pretty much enforced the Multiclass restrictions of 1 level between them (minus your favored class). I get most play humans, which mitigates this somewhat but I usally have to throw in that reminder when I DM'ed 3.5
I like how your skill system works, especially that things which are linked help make those checks stronger. Since doing more 13th Age, where the SKill System is really sort of ad-hoc - you get a small statistical bonus but the player needs to determine how it applies to the situation - I really like the free-form this provides.
I wrestled a heck of a lot of skill systems, and I don't pretend I covered all bases. The 4e skill challenges and 5e advantage mechanic are elements I shamelessly adopted. I know nothing about 13th Age, so I am assigning myself some gaming homework.
Although not explicitly stated, ability score increases still happen every 4 character levels. Multiclassing is risky for those who want to cast spells higher than 5th level. The overlap-not-stack policy extends to epic levels, but hit points, attack rolls, saves and especially feat acquisitions for classes take a serious downtune. For "pure" monsters, it is business as usual. Killing that ancient green dragon and taking its stuff just got a whole lot deadlier for the party. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 19:34:55
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Great Reader Diffan,
Agreed on that one level differential. That is the only thing that could bring sense to it. Otherwise, stuff got insane as we all know, i.e. Druid of Death and world annihilation. lol
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 19:46:09
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Combat role is to kill face to face if it's melee. Combat is to kill from a distance if you're arcane or divine. At least divine classes allow training in weapons. lol.
If you're a rogue I assume combat is sneak attacking, skills and feats galore. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 14:19:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Combat role is to kill face to face if it's melee. Combat is to kill from a distance if you're arcane or divine. At least divine classes allow training in weapons. lol.
If you're a rogue I assume combat is sneak attacking, skills and feats galore.
Combat in this context is simply the attack phase of the game. Character's rolling initiative, engaging in combat via weapons or spells, attempting to stop an enemy, etc. The exact means of how combat is achieved, is left vague. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 15:53:04
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Master cpthero2,
I suspect the players generated classes starting at minimum character level 5, got their class features and WBL "goodies", then murderhobo'ed their way to epic level so rapidly a 20% XP penalty would have been reduced to at best a speed bump...even if it were enforced.
By all means, vet new players before they join your gaming group. I dealt firsthand with Druid of Death (literally in two cases) wannabes. Sure, they will get furious with you. Personally, I am as popular with about two dozen short-term (i.e., one session and Sayanora!) players as the Simbul in pre-Spellplague Thay. It is worth your happiness and your veteran players' happiness to rid yourselves of combat-obsessed powergamers as fast as possible.
DM Credo: The only munchkins allowed at the gaming table come from Dunkin' Donuts!
And yes, nuke the overnight Ph.D.'s.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader Diffan,
Agreed on that one level differential. That is the only thing that could bring sense to it. Otherwise, stuff got insane as we all know, i.e. Druid of Death and world annihilation. lol
Best regards,
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Edited by - Delnyn on 22 Mar 2020 15:57:23 |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 16:42:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Combat role is to kill face to face if it's melee. Combat is to kill from a distance if you're arcane or divine. At least divine classes allow training in weapons. lol.
If you're a rogue I assume combat is sneak attacking, skills and feats galore.
Combat in this context is simply the attack phase of the game. Character's rolling initiative, engaging in combat via weapons or spells, attempting to stop an enemy, etc. The exact means of how combat is achieved, is left vague.
Very vague. lol. I personally don't like the AoO system, but I play it and DM it regardless. Sometimes I have to remind players that when you're within 5 feet of an enemy, even when your attacks are over for the round, you can still get several attacks if you're in a melee, and even a spell or two depending. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 21:40:51
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Learned Scribe Delnyn,
Well met good sir!
quote:
I suspect the players generated classes starting at minimum character level 5, got their class features and WBL "goodies", then murderhobo'ed their way to epic level so rapidly a 20% XP penalty would have been reduced to at best a speed bump...even if it were enforced.
Yeah, if there is a big enough series of gains going on like that, I could see. Plus... murderhobo'ings are the way to go. lol
quote:
By all means, vet new players before they join your gaming group. I dealt firsthand with Druid of Death (literally in two cases) wannabes. Sure, they will get furious with you. Personally, I am as popular with about two dozen short-term (i.e., one session and Sayanora!) players as the Simbul in pre-Spellplague Thay. It is worth your happiness and your veteran players' happiness to rid yourselves of combat-obsessed powergamers as fast as possible.
I say AMEN brother! Ok, I'm an atheist, but I remember going to a Souther Baptist church for fun one day when I was stationed down south in the Army, and the way they say it is amazing. :) haha
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DM Credo: The only munchkins allowed at the gaming table come from Dunkin' Donuts!
As a high priest of Mask would do to his mother's piggy jar: I'm stealing that. ;)
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And yes, nuke the overnight Ph.D.'s.
Nuke dropped!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Combat's Role in D&D
