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unseenmage
Seeker
61 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 11:56:28
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Canonically I'm curious what has damaged the Weave enough to require divine intervention. Including cases where divine intervention or the agents thereof have prevented such damage.
I know about Karsus Folly but I was under the impression that there are other factors that the deity of magic has to step in for.
Am in a game of high level high optimization and I'm curious what we should watch out not to do.
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Flying monkeys will eat your eyes. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 14:58:23
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Besides the known catastrophes that have been known that damaged the Weave (Dawn Cataclysm, the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague)? Mostly, usage. The reckless use of spells and stuff over the years had worn the Weave even more than the super cataclysms.
We know that currently (as of 1490s DR) the Weave has been repaired and is 100% functional again. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Mar 2020 14:59:15 |
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unseenmage
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 18:43:16
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Any chance of getting more specifics on what constitutes a reckless use of spells?
Seems odd that spellcasting could even damage the very mechanism which enables it to function. |
Flying monkeys will eat your eyes. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 19:15:47
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Mostly reckless usage of powerful spells, it seems. Which ones? I don't know. Guess we have to ask Ed about it, but I believe the rather destructive spells? And the usage of worldfire, spellfire, etc.
And, I have to add that this was done over a period of centuries. Though it seems this particular cause was particularly damaging after the Time of Troubles. According to Elminster Enraged, Mistra was about to shut down the Weave for repairs some time before Cyric "killed" her and caused the Spellplague. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Mar 2020 19:22:15 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 20:18:40
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IIRC Karsus Folly didn't damage the weave directly. When Karsus took the godhood from Mystra, he instantly realized that he wouldn't be able to maintain the weave and so it failed completly until Mystra was reborn and took over again.
This seems like the whole weave is a high maintanance project which needs constant care and repairing. So I guess all magic use stresses or drains it and maybe the more powerfull the spell the greater the effectg on the weave. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 03 Mar 2020 20:19:13 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 20:29:19
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| It may not be true, but there were rumors that one guy was using a spell to collect cow flatulence to empower his fireball spells. He cast a fireball near Blanaer though and magic just went dead for a couple minutes. But, I mean, I heard that from a Leiran, so.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 22:14:48
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
IIRC Karsus Folly didn't damage the weave directly. When Karsus took the godhood from Mystra, he instantly realized that he wouldn't be able to maintain the weave and so it failed completly until Mystra was reborn and took over again.
This seems like the whole weave is a high maintanance project which needs constant care and repairing. So I guess all magic use stresses or drains it and maybe the more powerfull the spell the greater the effectg on the weave.
As I recall, the Weave became unstable, and Mystryl had to reboot it to break Karsus's connection and fix things. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 00:21:23
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Great Reader sleyvas,
hahaha......I like that inclusion of a Leiran in there. I was just about to ask your alleged source, and then decided against it. ;)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It may not be true, but there were rumors that one guy was using a spell to collect cow flatulence to empower his fireball spells. He cast a fireball near Blanaer though and magic just went dead for a couple minutes. But, I mean, I heard that from a Leiran, so....
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 00:23:31
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Seeker unseenmage,
I would imagine people finding ancient artifacts of High Elven Magic, not understanding it, and messing up with it, might damage the Weave. It does seem almost like shields: it can take so much, then it is toast.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by unseenmage
Canonically I'm curious what has damaged the Weave enough to require divine intervention. Including cases where divine intervention or the agents thereof have prevented such damage.
I know about Karsus Folly but I was under the impression that there are other factors that the deity of magic has to step in for.
Am in a game of high level high optimization and I'm curious what we should watch out not to do.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 04:26:54
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I first noticed the weave was broken during the "Shadow Stone" book. KNowing that there is a huge shadow-stone that leaks shadow magic to unsuspecting wizards or clerics near Chondath. The Archwizards of Shade Enclave had not come back yet, bringing their Shade emissaries and shade lords.
Aeron Morieth I believe wa the half elf to discover the shadow weave and nor succumb to the Goddess Shar. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 04:59:04
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Dead magic zones, wild magic zones. The ToT produced the Helmlands (aka "Pits of Mystra") and a permanent dead magic zone covering half of Tantras. Plus countless other zones, sometimes mobile or intermittent, or vastly amplified by contact with artifacts/portals/etc.
Mystra's clergy were especially dedicated to repairing the Weave and (re)stabilzing these damaged areas ... but it was exhausting effort and their goddess's granted powers (and Wishes, etc) could re-Weave only a few cubic feet at a time.
Elven High Magic and mythals weren't as much affected. Rune magics, druidic magics, and some bardic magics weren't greatly affected. Liches, dragons, and other inherently magical species weren't diminished. The Sakkors mythallar also remained intact, although still long dormant. These (and many other things) draw their magic from sources other than Mystra's Weave. |
[/Ayrik] |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 10:24:22
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Overloads and messing with too much of inherently magical materials or creatures at once.
The latter may include Descent of the Drow (since the drow wizards occasionally suffered from wild magic on surface, their relationship with the Weave was abnormal).
Some limitations (10-lvl spells and damage cap) apply only after the fall of Myth Drannor. Whether as a result of that or not. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 19:57:15
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Master TBeholder,
Easy fix with the Time Conduit spell for those pesky spell limitations. ;)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Overloads and messing with too much of inherently magical materials or creatures at once.
The latter may include Descent of the Drow (since the drow wizards occasionally suffered from wild magic on surface, their relationship with the Weave was abnormal).
Some limitations (10-lvl spells and damage cap) apply only after the fall of Myth Drannor. Whether as a result of that or not.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 05:16:13
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Great Reader Lord Karsus,
It would be interesting to know how much damage, and how that damage worked before the Weave expired, popped, or whatever that would be called.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Realistically, every use of magic "damages" the Weave.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 15:55:41
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Learned Scribe Storyteller Hero,
There was a portal in Cendriane that was sealed pre-Spellplague, but was then later destroyed and then resealed post-Spellplague. So, it could certainly be reactivated again.
If I recall correctly, it was only an eye lash in width and fleshy. Pretty gross sounding.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Elder Evils from the Far Realm are also always trying to poke and prod at the reality within the Material Plane. This probably deals at least some subtle harm to the Weave.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 16:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Realistically, every use of magic "damages" the Weave.
Since it's designed as an interface to raw magic, I would expect the opposite. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 16:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Realistically, every use of magic "damages" the Weave.
Since it's designed as an interface to raw magic, I would expect the opposite.
Not necessarily. Using your PC normally (creating, rewriting and deleting archives) contributes to hard disk fragmentation. This causes your PC to be laggy and stuff. Over time, this will damage your hard disk, no matter how careful you are.
I guess an equivalent to this has to happen to the Weave, damaging it over time just for casting spells in the normal way. We are talking about a period of centuries, tho. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Mar 2020 16:28:55 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 16:55:53
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Master Zeromaru X,
I have to agree with you here. Unless the lame excuse of "it's magic" is just going to be utilized endlessly in the typical tropey mindlessness, there must be some physicality to it such that it does get impacted. I mean, when Karsus merged with Mystral and everything went sideways, there was likely a physical (however that is determined) reason for it. I hope it wasn't something as trite and silly as the notion of "their wills were locked in mortal combat and the feels won out", or some other such dribble. If so, Karsus needs to be resurrected and he and Mystral need to go see a counselor.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Realistically, every use of magic "damages" the Weave.
Since it's designed as an interface to raw magic, I would expect the opposite.
Not necessarily. Using your PC normally (creating, rewriting and deleting archives) contributes to hard disk fragmentation. This causes your PC to be laggy and stuff. Over time, this will damage your hard disk, no matter how careful you are.
I guess an equivalent to this has to happen to the Weave, damaging it over time just for casting spells in the normal way. We are talking about a period of centuries, tho.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 18:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Realistically, every use of magic "damages" the Weave.
Since it's designed as an interface to raw magic, I would expect the opposite.
Not necessarily. Using your PC normally (creating, rewriting and deleting archives) contributes to hard disk fragmentation. This causes your PC to be laggy and stuff. Over time, this will damage your hard disk, no matter how careful you are.
I guess an equivalent to this has to happen to the Weave, damaging it over time just for casting spells in the normal way. We are talking about a period of centuries, tho.
Yeah, but a PC is a machine. The Weave is more of a power grid. Saying that casting a spell damages it is like saying that plugging in a lamp damages the machinery making the electricity and the wires that care that electricity to your house. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 23:48:46
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Master Rupert,
Now, I get your point, and you very well may be right, but from what source do we know that to be true about it being a power grid?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Realistically, every use of magic "damages" the Weave.
Since it's designed as an interface to raw magic, I would expect the opposite.
Not necessarily. Using your PC normally (creating, rewriting and deleting archives) contributes to hard disk fragmentation. This causes your PC to be laggy and stuff. Over time, this will damage your hard disk, no matter how careful you are.
I guess an equivalent to this has to happen to the Weave, damaging it over time just for casting spells in the normal way. We are talking about a period of centuries, tho.
Yeah, but a PC is a machine. The Weave is more of a power grid. Saying that casting a spell damages it is like saying that plugging in a lamp damages the machinery making the electricity and the wires that care that electricity to your house.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 23:55:25
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Wooly, that is possible, if it's a immense Greenhouse where every, single, lamp is plugged in, say, 10 thousand 1000 watt lamps are setup incorrectly without an specific component.
Honestly, don't remember its name, all such lamps got them, removes feedback from the electricity, looks as an Ignition Coil from a car. But mess with the system, and said greenhouse could blow up equipment all over town. But you'd need to do that, almost intentionally.
If Mystra is a grid, you would have to work pretty hard to disrupt it. Sending Harpers or PCs after crazy cultist manipulated by Shar would be an good plot for something like that. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 23:56:49
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| Personally I don't view the weave as a power grid, even though it often IS shown that way (so no knocks on anyone who sees it that way). I see the weave as a "scripting language" that has "subroutines" that are streamlined so that people can use the operating system easier. Meanwhile, periodically these spells would be something like "scripts"/"batch files" written to pull on a power grid that exists everywhere. This is why periodically "spells change"... because without changing the weave, the god simply tweaks what happens "when you call upon the fireball subroutine". Thus, each spell is its own "object" that's designed within the "programming language" that applies to each class. Basically, from this perspective, the spellplague was a change to the operating system, and thus the "scripts" that people were trying to use were calling on the wrong things, with odd results. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 00:27:45
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Learned Scribe Starshade,
I think that is just a feedback circuit. Not 100% though, as I am not an electrician. :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
Wooly, that is possible, if it's a immense Greenhouse where every, single, lamp is plugged in, say, 10 thousand 1000 watt lamps are setup incorrectly without an specific component.
Honestly, don't remember its name, all such lamps got them, removes feedback from the electricity, looks as an Ignition Coil from a car. But mess with the system, and said greenhouse could blow up equipment all over town. But you'd need to do that, almost intentionally.
If Mystra is a grid, you would have to work pretty hard to disrupt it. Sending Harpers or PCs after crazy cultist manipulated by Shar would be an good plot for something like that.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 00:45:39
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quote:
[i] Basically, from this perspective, the spellplague was a change to the operating system, and thus the "scripts" that people were trying to use were calling on the wrong things, with odd results.
The Spellplague uses the Far Realm OS. Recommended by Cthulhu! 
Following your example, programming language can be corrupted over time due white noise. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Mar 2020 00:46:28 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 02:12:45
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Great Reader slevyas,
I think that is a pretty cool way of looking at the Weave actually. I've had a very different way of implementing it since the 80's when I started getting into the Realms.
I've viewed the Weave as a normally invisible but permeating field of power that courses through everything until interacted with by using the right somatic gestures, verbal commands, and material components. When that happens, the Weave becomes visible in different ways to people depending on their affiliation, i.e. raw sorcerous affinity, an instructed "scientific" utility by wizardry, etc. At that point, all of this magic is flowing around you, like fireflys. A sorcerer may see it as raw energy forms, whereas a wizard would see equations, bards would see musical notes or some form of music, priests would see imagery that coincides with their faith as they have read and learned it from scripture and lectures, etc.
When done casting, the viewpoint of the caster returns to "normal."
So, when I've been reading about all of this stuff, it struck me as odd. Great that people go about as they do, but very different than mine. With my version of the Weave, there would be no way to destroy it, as you're only ever making sense of it in a manner that is local/immediate, as they Weave is all around you. There is no way to climb up a chain, or somehow interact with it all at once, unless you do transcend beyond it all in a manner that allows one to do what Karsus did. However, those spells are banned, so that could only ever happen if they found High Elven Magic, or something like that.
I love this different systems of magic discussion though! :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Personally I don't view the weave as a power grid, even though it often IS shown that way (so no knocks on anyone who sees it that way). I see the weave as a "scripting language" that has "subroutines" that are streamlined so that people can use the operating system easier. Meanwhile, periodically these spells would be something like "scripts"/"batch files" written to pull on a power grid that exists everywhere. This is why periodically "spells change"... because without changing the weave, the god simply tweaks what happens "when you call upon the fireball subroutine". Thus, each spell is its own "object" that's designed within the "programming language" that applies to each class. Basically, from this perspective, the spellplague was a change to the operating system, and thus the "scripts" that people were trying to use were calling on the wrong things, with odd results.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 15:01:40
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It's hard to quantify what is or isn't over-drain, of course. But observable symptoms of damage are dead- and wild- magic zones.
IIRC, there were mentions of incidents resulting in that, but all small fry compared to ToT.
Spellstorms seem to be a non-permanent, but true (not artifice maintained by spells) variation of wild magic zone, so those probably count too.
Of other lasting consequences, magical incidents may create phantoms. But it's probably not a problem for the Weave, seeing how Mystra's servants don't bother to remove them. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 17:21:25
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Master TBeholder,
That is a really great point. So, next question then is: what is actually happening at the point that the wild and dead magic zones come about? Going back to Master Rupert's point, in light of the one you just made, may in fact validate his analogy of an electrical system. Wild and Dead magic zones could in fact be analogical to a brown or black out?
Thoughts?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
It's hard to quantify what is or isn't over-drain, of course. But observable symptoms of damage are dead- and wild- magic zones.
IIRC, there were mentions of incidents resulting in that, but all small fry compared to ToT.
Spellstorms seem to be a non-permanent, but true (not artifice maintained by spells) variation of wild magic zone, so those probably count too.
Of other lasting consequences, magical incidents may create phantoms. But it's probably not a problem for the Weave, seeing how Mystra's servants don't bother to remove them.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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unseenmage
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 18:35:59
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Do we have a list anywhere detailing all (or at least a bunch of) the dead or wild magic zones and their presumed causes?
Could go a long way towards quantifying what precedents damage to the weave. |
Flying monkeys will eat your eyes. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 20:10:35
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Seeker unseenmage,
This is for the Dead Magic zones, though I am not saying it is complete, and bear in mind, I believe just 3.5 D&D:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dead-magic_zone
The only thing I could find on the Wild Magic Zones was this here at the 'Keep, which isn't very informative.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21640
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by unseenmage
Do we have a list anywhere detailing all (or at least a bunch of) the dead or wild magic zones and their presumed causes?
Could go a long way towards quantifying what precedents damage to the weave.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Topic |
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What Exactly Has Damaged The Weave?
