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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 22:34:22
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I feel like there were just too many monsters from earlier editions that were dropped into the world and never seen or heard from again. I am curious how much of this is from my lack of lore knowledge, and how much is because of simple abandonment.
I'd like to start with a quick read through of MC11 from 2e and possibly expand elsewhere. Is there further lore on these creatures anywhere that I don't know about?
Disclaimer: This is just a personal selection I am checking up on, it's not everything in the book.
1. Alguduir - A large marsh bird that I think Gray richardson once included in his lore about Aearee.
2. Cantobele - A high pitched feminine voiced cat that looks like a displacer beast had a baby with sully from Monsters Inc. from Pixar.
3. Dimensional Warper - A race of snake bodied, winged creatures that observe humans from other planes but don't really come to the Prime.
4. Fachan - One legged one eyed race of swamp dwellers
5. Frost - Snow Fairies
6. Gaund - Intelligent 3-eyed lizards that could heat metal with a lazer beam from their eyes.
7. Gloomwing - Two creatures with the same name, one a flying serpent, one a moth.
8. Golden Ammonite - Deep sea creatures with valuable shells made of gold.
9. Haun/Haundar - Personal favorites - giant slugs of the frozen north and their masters
10. Hendar - Flying horseheaded worms
11. Manni - Bird folk from the steppes. I'm guessing we don't see from them anymore because they are basically a creature from the Horde.
12. Mara - Great stone walking statues inhabited by evil spirits.
13. Orpsu - Stirge wannabees
14. Rohch - Wolf beetles
15. Sha'az - Bug folk from frozen lands and enemies of the haun
16. Silver Dogs - Good aligned dog creatures that seem like the antithesis of yeth hounds. My guess is they are Selune's creatures.
17. Spider Monkey - Tiny little gorillas that are good aligned and would make great familiars.
18. Tempest - Living storms
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 22:54:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I feel like there were just too many monsters from earlier editions that were dropped into the world and never seen or heard from again. I am curious how much of this is from my lack of lore knowledge, and how much is because of simple abandonment.
Part of the problem is that MC11 was more generic MM than FR appendix. I would classify as follows:
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1. Alguduir - A large marsh bird that I think Gray richardson once included in his lore about Aearee.
Random. Thought it was dumb.
quote:
2. Cantobele - A high pitched feminine voiced cat that looks like a displacer beast had a baby with sully from Monsters Inc. from Pixar.
I would say this one is real, down by the deepwash, IIRC. There's also a year name with this beast in it. Worth updating to 3.5e.
quote:
3. Dimensional Warper - A race of snake bodied, winged creatures that observe humans from other planes but don't really come to the Prime.
4. Fachan - One legged one eyed race of swamp dwellers
Random. Dumb.
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5. Frost - Snow Fairies
Random, but useful. I would put in the Utter North (beyond the Spine of the World) and the High Ice.
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6. Gaund - Intelligent 3-eyed lizards that could heat metal with a lazer beam from their eyes.
Somewhat random. I think this might have been an Ed Greenwood monster from the early days of Dragon.
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7. Gloomwing - Two creatures with the same name, one a flying serpent, one a moth.
Random. Not great.
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8. Golden Ammonite - Deep sea creatures with valuable shells made of gold.
Random. Dumb.
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9. Haun/Haundar - Personal favorites - giant slugs of the frozen north and their masters
These were fine. I think I even included a mention of them in my write-up of Tulrun in Polyhedron #125 and #126.
Only thing that hasn't aged well is 3e and 3.5e went overboard with additional aberrations.
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10. Hendar - Flying horseheaded worms
These are good. Not sure i fthey were an Ed-special from way back in the day in Dragon Creature Catalogs. I think they first appeared in Ruins of Zhentil Keep in 2e. My one complaint is that they seem to overlap foulwings.
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11. Manni - Bird folk from the steppes. I'm guessing we don't see from them anymore because they are basically a creature from the Horde.
12. Mara - Great stone walking statues inhabited by evil spirits.
Both of these are from the Horde boxed set. They are fine in the steppes as long as they are not everywhere.
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13. Orpsu - Stirge wannabees
These are an Ed special. I think they first appeared in Dragon Creature Catalog. Then in FR13 - Anauroch.
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14. Rohch - Wolf beetles
Random. Dumb.
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15. Sha'az - Bug folk from frozen lands and enemies of the haun
See above comments on haun and haundar.
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16. Silver Dogs - Good aligned dog creatures that seem like the antithesis of yeth hounds. My guess is they are Selune's creatures.
With that limitation they are fine.
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17. Spider Monkey - Tiny little gorillas that are good aligned and would make great familiars.
[quote]
I liked this. They may have appeared in FR16 or Shining South. Either way, they are good southern jungle creatures.
[quote]
18. Tempest - Living storms
I think these got superceded by storm elementals in 3e. |
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Edited by - ericlboyd on 23 Feb 2020 22:58:21 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11861 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 22:56:13
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| I would say frosts are still around without a doubt, because we have references to Aurilandur being something like queen of the frost sprites or snow sprites, and this monster entry says they are the creatures of that name. That being said, I refuse to believe that the old picture is what they look like and prefer to view them like Tinker Bell's sister, Periwinkle. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 23:06:52
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I like the commentary and often brutal honesty about some of them. I disagree on the golden ammonite though. I could see them being somehow central to the cults of dagon out in the sea of corynactis. A "gift" from the sea lord or a sacrifice to him for the shalarin.
I also don't think 5e has enough just random beasts to come across. Creatures that have no massive motivations beyond eating and surviving. That's one of the resons I don't hate the alguduir, rohch, and gloomwings. But yeah, they're not particularly clever.
Time to locate those Polyhedrons... |
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Edited by - Seethyr on 23 Feb 2020 23:19:34 |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 23:08:28
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| Snow Faeries: Also known as Frost Faeries, they are part of the Winter Court in the Feywild (The Plane of Faerie). They are Seelie fey and rally against the Unseelie Court at every chance. Some are indifferent and some are more passionate. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 23:19:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Snow Faeries: Also known as Frost Faeries, they are part of the Winter Court in the Feywild (The Plane of Faerie). They are Seelie fey and rally against the Unseelie Court at every chance. Some are indifferent and some are more passionate.
Ah so that’s pretty clear that they are still around. Where is that from? |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 23:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I like the commentary and often brutal honesty about some of them. I disagree on the golden ammonite though. I could see them being somehow central to the cults of dagon out in the sea of corynactis. A "gift" from the sea lord or a sacrifice to him for the shalarin.
I also don't think 5e has enough just random beasts to come across. Creatures that have no massive motivations beyond eating and surviving. That's one of the resons I don't hate the alguduir, rohch, and gloomwings. But yeah, they're not particularly clever.
Time to locate those Polyhedrons...
It's just a tangential mention.
I do agree with your general comment, but I don't think these monsters are the solution.
In short, I think the DND game needs a lot more magical beasts that fit particular ecological niches.
But they need to be really thoughtful about what role they play. I think rothe (all 3 varieties) are one of the best examples of what I mean. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 01:38:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The Mara...perhaps some kind of connection to Bloodforges and Basal Golems?
I love Utter East references. That could definitely work. I haven’t seen anything about the Mara since 2e |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 17:36:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
14. Rohch - Wolf beetles
Rohches make great "plague" type creatures that only reasonably powerful characters can take care of, given that they can only be hit by +2 weapons. Otherwise they aren't difficult at all. They're also not natural, so they really don't have an ecological niche to fit in.
I've actually been using them in my current Spelljammer adventure, to good effect (the smaller ones used overbearing tactics against the warriors).
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
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"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 19:29:07
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
14. Rohch - Wolf beetles
Rohches make great "plague" type creatures that only reasonably powerful characters can take care of, given that they can only be hit by +2 weapons. Otherwise they aren't difficult at all. They're also not natural, so they really don't have an ecological niche to fit in.
I've actually been using them in my current Spelljammer adventure, to good effect (the smaller ones used overbearing tactics against the warriors).
Jeff
I just saw the Nicholas Cage version of Color out of Space and the rohch reminded me of the perfect Cthulhu horror. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 22:53:01
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Here are additional ones from MC3. Much shorter list considering most of the creatures there have already been found at least somewhere else.
Belabra - trainable jellyfish looking creatures.
Bhaergala - wolf lions that could mimic speech. Reminds me of a leucrotta in too many ways.
Rhaumbusun - basilisk offshoots that paralyzed instead of turned you to stone
Sull- living flying saucers.
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 00:24:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Here are additional ones from MC3. Much shorter list considering most of the creatures there have already been found at least somewhere else.
Belabra - trainable jellyfish looking creatures.
I like these guys. They were created by Ed in an old Creature Catalog. I did a 3.5e update for Crown of Eaerlann.
quote:
Bhaergala - wolf lions that could mimic speech. Reminds me of a leucrotta in too many ways.
Love these guys. Also an Ed creation from Creature Catalog. I did a 3.5e update for Crown of Eaerlann.
quote:
Rhaumbusun - basilisk offshoots that paralyzed instead of turned you to stone
These are OK. I could see them in the Shining South.
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Sull- living flying saucers.
Never liked these.
--Eric |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 18:22:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Here are additional ones from MC3. Much shorter list considering most of the creatures there have already been found at least somewhere else.
Belabra - trainable jellyfish looking creatures.
As a side-note, the Ecology of the Flumph article in Dragon 246 or so (it's around there, can't remember exactly) posits a potential relationship between these things, flumphs, and grell.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 21:21:13
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Here are additional ones from MC3. Much shorter list considering most of the creatures there have already been found at least somewhere else.
Belabra - trainable jellyfish looking creatures.
As a side-note, the Ecology of the Flumph article in Dragon 246 or so (it's around there, can't remember exactly) posits a potential relationship between these things, flumphs, and grell.
Jeff
What a coincidence, I was actually thinking that might be the case with the sull as well. I’ll check it out thank you.
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 14:29:39
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
In short, I think the DND game needs a lot more magical beasts that fit particular ecological niches.
But they need to be really thoughtful about what role they play. I think rothe (all 3 varieties) are one of the best examples of what I mean.
So basically, you think they need more elaboration. I think all creatures could benefit from an Ecology of the X treatment, that way, they could be given much more elaboration and details about how they could fit into a world, and not just the Realms.
Take the Fachan. Aside from the fact that it is the only Creature Catalog monster made miniature gives it some appeal, more elaboration on it would help its weird biological image. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 16:51:59
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| As a young kid. Monsters are what drew me to this game. I got the original Monster Manual for Christmas one year and was hooked for life. Imo they’re still one of the biggest draws and should be treated as such. Yes to Ecology of... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 17:20:34
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I always liked the monster books, but I've long felt they overloaded on undead and dragon-types.
Sure, cover the main types of undead, and cover the main types of dragons... But some of the undead have such odd situations that cause them to arise that you'd expect them to be unique, or they're just slight variations on more common types.
And for me, even the gemstone dragons are a bit of a stretch -- most of the other dragon types are just "hey, what color/material isn't an official dragon type yet?" A lot of them occupy ecological niches already filled by the more common dragon types, and are thus unlikely to exist in any real numbers, because the more numerous breeds would be taking those spots.
I get the whole thing of needing new monsters; I just have an issue with stuff that's only slightly different than existing critters or that was created to fill a pattern. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 18:27:02
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It's more about balance.
If you read all the 3e monster books, plus supplements with large numbers of monsters, you'll note a few trends, IMHO:
1) Too many aberrations, dragons, giants, humanoids, and monstrous humanoids.
There's just too many humanoid / monstroush humanoid / giant races to make ecological sense.
There are so many aberrations ("variations on a tentacle"), it suggests the world has basically already been over run by the Far Realm.
There are so many species of dragon for a type that is long-lived and low in number.
2) Too few animals, magical beasts, and plants.
It's just too hard to build a decent encounter table in a wilderness area that makes some amount of ecological sense..
3) I'm not bothered by too many undead, as they can be unique and local and don't really need an "ecology." There aren't many constructs, but they are artificial as well and can be localized. I'm not too bother by elementals or outsiders, as the planes are infinite.
4) I suppose there could be too many fey or oozes, but they don't seem to be overdone by the sum of the various designers. Ditto for vermin.
quote:
Originally posted by Varl
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
In short, I think the DND game needs a lot more magical beasts that fit particular ecological niches.
But they need to be really thoughtful about what role they play. I think rothe (all 3 varieties) are one of the best examples of what I mean.
So basically, you think they need more elaboration. I think all creatures could benefit from an Ecology of the X treatment, that way, they could be given much more elaboration and details about how they could fit into a world, and not just the Realms.
Take the Fachan. Aside from the fact that it is the only Creature Catalog monster made miniature gives it some appeal, more elaboration on it would help its weird biological image.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 19:11:35
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| I don't mind local or unique undead, but a lot of the ones I think should be unique are presented as uncommon or rare -- meaning that multiple ones exist. A one-off that's intelligent and a boss or mini-boss? Bring it on. Something created through a ridiculous set of circumstances that's a random encounter? Nope, hard pass. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 19:39:35
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I agree with everything that’s been stated. I am also having major issues making encounter tables in 5e. The creatures in the MC don’t fit random encounters very well at all as it stands and I’ve had to go third party (Kobold Press or <gasp> DMsGuild). We need a MC 2 pretty badly even though Mordenkainen’s is a nice extension.
I would agree with the dragon issue, but I’ve found them to be too iconic not to bend the rules just a little. I’m assuming official gem dragons will make an appearance the moment we get official psionics rules. They go together like peanut butter and jelly. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 06:08:19
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I don't have a big issue with too many dragons, in part because I wouldn't put them on every world (I don't see linnorms existing on continental Faerun for the most part; maybe some up near Heartsvale and the Moonshaes, and that's it; same for a lot of the Monstrous Compendium Annual types like pearl dragons, moonstone dragons, etc.), in part because I see Io as a huge experimenter rather than the dragons being naturally evolved beings. Most probably get killed shortly after having young as they compete for space with existing ancient dragons.
Haven't had too many issues with the number of humanoids or giants, either, so long as they're not assumed to be everywhere. But I'm also basing this on what is in 2e's Monstrous Compendiums, so I don't know what they've done to expand out the selection of monsters in later editions, other that being vaguely aware they sometimes introduce creatures that serve the same roles as older ones. One thing that I really appreciate about the Monstrous Compendiums is how much information they contained on the monsters beyond just their stats (and even then it sometimes felt like not enough).
The "Ecology of" articles were also excellent, although they didn't always follow canon, and even more often were ignored by later canon, though.
Jeff |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 15:50:05
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
One thing that I really appreciate about the Monstrous Compendiums is how much information they contained on the monsters beyond just their stats (and even then it sometimes felt like not enough).
I LOVED that the 2E monster books gave so much info about the monsters. Where they lair, how they interact with other critters and others of their kind, how they fight, what their body parts were useful for, all sorts of stuff like that. I've not looked at the 5E monster book yet, but I know that in 3E and 4E, they went back to the "monsters are just bags of XP" approach, with the only flavor being a one or two line description. I think that approach takes a lot of potential out of the game. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 18:38:01
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5e is falling somewhere in the middle. There’s lore for each monster, but it’s not terribly extensive. More than 3e and 4e combined though.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
976 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 04:02:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I LOVED that the 2E monster books gave so much info about the monsters. Where they lair, how they interact with other critters and others of their kind, how they fight, what their body parts were useful for, all sorts of stuff like that. I've not looked at the 5E monster book yet, but I know that in 3E and 4E, they went back to the "monsters are just bags of XP" approach, with the only flavor being a one or two line description. I think that approach takes a lot of potential out of the game.
As an alternative source of information for those who don't have 2E literature (or donated it all like me), I recommend some YouTube channels like Jorphdan (the "ph" is silent) or Mr. Rhexx with his "What They Didn't Tell You About <monster name>". I was very impressed with Mr. Rhexx's videos on the chromatic and metallic dragons.
Slight digression:
As far as the body parts are concerned, ask yourself if 25,000 gold pieces are worth getting caught selling a ki-rin skin by one of its fellows. Ditto for unicorn horns and hollyphant tusks. My two coppers. |
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Monsters from 2e's MC11 and Beyond
