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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 05:12:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Dwalimer Omen had a skyship in the comics
I know that the Realms wiki describes the Realms Master as a skyship, but it wasn't. It didn't have the levitation plates or the control rod, it usually sailed, and the few times it wasn't in water, it was because the artifact the ship carried was moving it.
The Realms Master was a regular boat with an unusual propulsion system.
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 10:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd love to see some real details on the Second Unhuman War, and how things have gone since then...
Doing this well would probably require Jeff Grub, however.
quote:
Also, they'd have to address some issues that got blithely overlooked the first time around... How can so much of a world be terra incognita when anyone can hop a ship and be there in a matter of hours? Why is it that none of the folks that dropped in from space stopped at these other places and spread word of them?
But you don't need to bring in any flying ships to ask this question.
Long-range scrying starts at Level 3 spells. And those are not obstructed by all the clouds (though this may slow down mapping locally), nor held back by amount of willingness to land into an unknown environment (magical, meteorological, political and biological), either.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Now, a Halruaan skyship can have a spelljamming helm mounted on it, which makes it a spelljammer... And while a few skyships are spelljammers, this is an after-market thing, so to speak. Most skyships do not have spelljamming helms, and thus they are much slower and generally less maneuverable than a spelljammer. A skyship can likely outlift most spelljammers, but that's their only real advantage.
The main advantage of having fallback lifting power is that it solves the "save or lost-with-all-hands" problem, thus removes the nastiest practical limitation on most spelljamming helms (especially for military or exploration purpose).
But it's still going to be an impaired "groundling design", unless you do it the other way around (mount a levitation system on something designed for spelljamming).
Also, one may interfere with the other. In which case levitation system needs to be specifically enchanted to activate only as fallback, rather than bolted on.
Either way, if you already need it only as a failsafe to prevent crash, a feather fall based emergency system will have most of its functionality, and would probably be easier and cheaper to make. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 02 Feb 2020 12:31:43 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 15:37:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I actually pray a little that SJ will get a full campaign update but I’m losing hope.
Also, they'd have to address some issues that got blithely overlooked the first time around... How can so much of a world be terra incognita when anyone can hop a ship and be there in a matter of hours? Why is it that none of the folks that dropped in from space stopped at these other places and spread word of them?
And most importantly -- you'd have to address the impact of spelljamming on war and trade.
One of the ideas I've been floating around with the concept of the United Tharchs of Toril thing is that refugees from Thay went to Anchorome's Fort Flame area. They quickly helped establish settlements there and were looking to expand in the area. Then the concept is that the area went to Abeir.
Why do I mention this? Because one of the things that the Thayans developed was their own version of a helm. It was ultra-fast and I picture it being used for the purposes you mention... exploration and trade. I've also developed that there is a floating Netherese enclave that's invisible and in orbit (previously known as Doubloon, but known now as Luneira, and being run by the Zulkir of Illusion who "died"). I also have it that this mistress of subterfuge started further conflicts between Shou Lung and Wa by stealing their spelljamming vessels and blaming the other party (and they may have enslaved some of the people of Kara-Tur as a result). So, one of the primary things connecting these United Tharchs are the spelljamming helms and from their sky view they will have mapped out much of the world. The problem being... the world is literally changing in front of their eyes, and so their maps go from reliable to unreliable within years. Also, mapping from orbit may get you a general idea of the shapes, but not the specifics of a region.
One of the things I'm also introducing is the concept that in Anchorome there were spellweavers long ago in the city of Esh Alakar (this is something both myself and Seethyr liked), but I came up with an idea that maybe the spellweavers had an outpost nearby that was a "spelljamming" port of sorts. By that, I'm thinking about introducing the concept that they had a much much weaker version of a spelljamming helm. Definitely slower, but good enough for interstellar travel when used with magic to provide food, water, and air.
Anyway, that's my take on one way to introduce it while somewhat trying to control the impact. Much like Shou Lung, they'd try to keep their capabilities hidden from the surrounding communities, for strategic reasons. So, they'd probably do the same things you hear about of landing on the ocean miles away and floating into port, etc... Otherwise surrounding communities might try to seize their vessels. Also, now that they have "returned" from Abeir, other cultures with ties to spelljamming may now be adding new factors into things. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Feb 2020 15:42:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 16:23:52
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I actually pray a little that SJ will get a full campaign update but I’m losing hope.
Also, they'd have to address some issues that got blithely overlooked the first time around... How can so much of a world be terra incognita when anyone can hop a ship and be there in a matter of hours? Why is it that none of the folks that dropped in from space stopped at these other places and spread word of them?
And most importantly -- you'd have to address the impact of spelljamming on war and trade.
One of the ideas I've been floating around with the concept of the United Tharchs of Toril thing is that refugees from Thay went to Anchorome's Fort Flame area. They quickly helped establish settlements there and were looking to expand in the area. Then the concept is that the area went to Abeir.
Why do I mention this? Because one of the things that the Thayans developed was their own version of a helm. It was ultra-fast and I picture it being used for the purposes you mention... exploration and trade. I've also developed that there is a floating Netherese enclave that's invisible and in orbit (previously known as Doubloon, but known now as Luneira, and being run by the Zulkir of Illusion who "died"). I also have it that this mistress of subterfuge started further conflicts between Shou Lung and Wa by stealing their spelljamming vessels and blaming the other party (and they may have enslaved some of the people of Kara-Tur as a result). So, one of the primary things connecting these United Tharchs are the spelljamming helms and from their sky view they will have mapped out much of the world. The problem being... the world is literally changing in front of their eyes, and so their maps go from reliable to unreliable within years. Also, mapping from orbit may get you a general idea of the shapes, but not the specifics of a region.
One of the things I'm also introducing is the concept that in Anchorome there were spellweavers long ago in the city of Esh Alakar (this is something both myself and Seethyr liked), but I came up with an idea that maybe the spellweavers had an outpost nearby that was a "spelljamming" port of sorts. By that, I'm thinking about introducing the concept that they had a much much weaker version of a spelljamming helm. Definitely slower, but good enough for interstellar travel when used with magic to provide food, water, and air.
Anyway, that's my take on one way to introduce it while somewhat trying to control the impact. Much like Shou Lung, they'd try to keep their capabilities hidden from the surrounding communities, for strategic reasons. So, they'd probably do the same things you hear about of landing on the ocean miles away and floating into port, etc... Otherwise surrounding communities might try to seize their vessels. Also, now that they have "returned" from Abeir, other cultures with ties to spelljamming may now be adding new factors into things.
Even with something like that, there's still the potential for mapping and such to occur with others. Some hammership from Randomspace drops in, maps one of the non-Faerûn continents, then goes to Waterdeep and sells the map.
Or an adventuring party from Cormyr finds their way into space, spends some time adventuring, decides to head back to the Realms with their new ship, and then realizes the mercantile advantages of it... You'd only have to make a couple runs betwixt Kozakura and the Sword Coast to make a metric buttload of money -- and with a spelljammer, you could do that twice a tenday, easily. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 17:03:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Why do I mention this? Because one of the things that the Thayans developed was their own version of a helm. It was ultra-fast and I picture it being used for the purposes you mention... exploration and trade.
How they have developed spelljamming technology and (if I understand your post correctly) created successfully a fleet of them, in a world dominated by dragons. Which means is the dragons who have absolute dominion over the sky.
I don't want to be rude, but this is why i don't get your United Tharchs idea. It's too much lore-breaking... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 17:36:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Why do I mention this? Because one of the things that the Thayans developed was their own version of a helm. It was ultra-fast and I picture it being used for the purposes you mention... exploration and trade.
How they have developed spelljamming technology and (if I understand your post correctly) created successfully a fleet of them, in a world dominated by dragons. Which means is the dragons who have absolute dominion over the sky.
I don't want to be rude, but this is why i don't get your United Tharchs idea. It's too much lore-breaking...
Flying ships have been a staple in fantasy for a while, and we know they exist in the Realms. It's not unreasonable to assume that another nation of mages would try their hand at it. (It is canon Spelljammer lore that the Thayans have dabbled with spelljamming; their Quads of Thay don't work quite like regular spelljammers. They are faster, but the nature of their grand helms means they can't move themselves unless inside a crystal sphere)
Unless it's loaded with mages, any flying ship -- spelljammer or otherwise -- is toast if a dragon decides to attack. But that clearly doesn't happen every time a ship takes to the skies -- they're also not patrolling every square mile of the skies 24/10. We know spelljammers have visited the Realms. We know the Halruaans have skyships. We know of the Lost Ship, a skyship detailed in a couple of WotC Realmslore articles, lo those long-ago days when we got Realmslore on a weekly basis.
Sleyvas's United Tharchs of Toril isn't an idea that grabs me, but I have no specific objections to it, either.
I don't see any reason why Thayans can't be using their Quads to go to a hidden, orbital base. Me, I'd put the base on an apparently uninhabitable rock in the Tears, and have the Thayans use it as a stopping point before going to the Rock or points further. And it would be used by a smaller faction of Thayans, focused on trade -- not something that all of the Zulkirs would even be aware of.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Feb 2020 17:39:07 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 18:08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I actually pray a little that SJ will get a full campaign update but I’m losing hope.
Also, they'd have to address some issues that got blithely overlooked the first time around... How can so much of a world be terra incognita when anyone can hop a ship and be there in a matter of hours? Why is it that none of the folks that dropped in from space stopped at these other places and spread word of them?
And most importantly -- you'd have to address the impact of spelljamming on war and trade.
One of the ideas I've been floating around with the concept of the United Tharchs of Toril thing is that refugees from Thay went to Anchorome's Fort Flame area. They quickly helped establish settlements there and were looking to expand in the area. Then the concept is that the area went to Abeir.
Why do I mention this? Because one of the things that the Thayans developed was their own version of a helm. It was ultra-fast and I picture it being used for the purposes you mention... exploration and trade. I've also developed that there is a floating Netherese enclave that's invisible and in orbit (previously known as Doubloon, but known now as Luneira, and being run by the Zulkir of Illusion who "died"). I also have it that this mistress of subterfuge started further conflicts between Shou Lung and Wa by stealing their spelljamming vessels and blaming the other party (and they may have enslaved some of the people of Kara-Tur as a result). So, one of the primary things connecting these United Tharchs are the spelljamming helms and from their sky view they will have mapped out much of the world. The problem being... the world is literally changing in front of their eyes, and so their maps go from reliable to unreliable within years. Also, mapping from orbit may get you a general idea of the shapes, but not the specifics of a region.
One of the things I'm also introducing is the concept that in Anchorome there were spellweavers long ago in the city of Esh Alakar (this is something both myself and Seethyr liked), but I came up with an idea that maybe the spellweavers had an outpost nearby that was a "spelljamming" port of sorts. By that, I'm thinking about introducing the concept that they had a much much weaker version of a spelljamming helm. Definitely slower, but good enough for interstellar travel when used with magic to provide food, water, and air.
Anyway, that's my take on one way to introduce it while somewhat trying to control the impact. Much like Shou Lung, they'd try to keep their capabilities hidden from the surrounding communities, for strategic reasons. So, they'd probably do the same things you hear about of landing on the ocean miles away and floating into port, etc... Otherwise surrounding communities might try to seize their vessels. Also, now that they have "returned" from Abeir, other cultures with ties to spelljamming may now be adding new factors into things.
Even with something like that, there's still the potential for mapping and such to occur with others. Some hammership from Randomspace drops in, maps one of the non-Faerûn continents, then goes to Waterdeep and sells the map.
Or an adventuring party from Cormyr finds their way into space, spends some time adventuring, decides to head back to the Realms with their new ship, and then realizes the mercantile advantages of it... You'd only have to make a couple runs betwixt Kozakura and the Sword Coast to make a metric buttload of money -- and with a spelljammer, you could do that twice a tenday, easily.
That would upset Aurora. She has been bringing in items from Kozakura for years. As fast as a spelljammer is, it can't beat a teleport. Plus, since she moves her entire warehouse every year, they have to have spells that deal with bulk moves so she could probably equal if not exceed the volume a spelljammer can transport in the same amount of time.
P.S. Anyone know why my font/color changed? I can't seem to change it to the normal one. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 02 Feb 2020 18:11:24 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 18:31:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
How they have developed spelljamming technology and (if I understand your post correctly) created successfully a fleet of them, in a world dominated by dragons. Which means is the dragons who have absolute dominion over the sky.
I don't want to be rude, but this is why i don't get your United Tharchs idea. It's too much lore-breaking...
Flying ships have been a staple in fantasy for a while, and we know they exist in the Realms. It's not unreasonable to assume that another nation of mages would try their hand at it. (It is canon Spelljammer lore that the Thayans have dabbled with spelljamming; their Quads of Thay don't work quite like regular spelljammers. They are faster, but the nature of their grand helms means they can't move themselves unless inside a crystal sphere)
Unless it's loaded with mages, any flying ship -- spelljammer or otherwise -- is toast if a dragon decides to attack. But that clearly doesn't happen every time a ship takes to the skies -- they're also not patrolling every square mile of the skies 24/10. We know spelljammers have visited the Realms. We know the Halruaans have skyships. We know of the Lost Ship, a skyship detailed in a couple of WotC Realmslore articles, lo those long-ago days when we got Realmslore on a weekly basis.
Sleyvas's United Tharchs of Toril isn't an idea that grabs me, but I have no specific objections to it, either.
I don't see any reason why Thayans can't be using their Quads to go to a hidden, orbital base. Me, I'd put the base on an apparently uninhabitable rock in the Tears, and have the Thayans use it as a stopping point before going to the Rock or points further. And it would be used by a smaller faction of Thayans, focused on trade -- not something that all of the Zulkirs would even be aware of.
If we were talking of a nation located in Toril, this applies. But if I understand correctly his United Tarch ideas, he is talking about a nation that developed on Abeir, a world where a city of dragons easily can have 30k inhabitants or so (see Marangor in Laerakond).
In a world which such a dragon population, I see a successful spelljamming nation something immersion breaking. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 20:34:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Dwalimer Omen had a skyship in the comics
I know that the Realms wiki describes the Realms Master as a skyship, but it wasn't. It didn't have the levitation plates or the control rod, it usually sailed, and the few times it wasn't in water, it was because the artifact the ship carried was moving it.
The Realms Master was a regular boat with an unusual propulsion system.
I'm afraid I'll have to vehemently argue this point. I have the comics, and his ship is referred to as a Halruann Skyship/Caravel. Though it did have the Astrolabe of Nimbral aboard that allowed the ship to also teleport; the Astrolabe was not the source of the ship's ability to fly.
Now, while the comic illustrators may not have depicted it as the same as was done in sourcebooks; it was indeed a skyship. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 21:20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
How they have developed spelljamming technology and (if I understand your post correctly) created successfully a fleet of them, in a world dominated by dragons. Which means is the dragons who have absolute dominion over the sky.
I don't want to be rude, but this is why i don't get your United Tharchs idea. It's too much lore-breaking...
Flying ships have been a staple in fantasy for a while, and we know they exist in the Realms. It's not unreasonable to assume that another nation of mages would try their hand at it. (It is canon Spelljammer lore that the Thayans have dabbled with spelljamming; their Quads of Thay don't work quite like regular spelljammers. They are faster, but the nature of their grand helms means they can't move themselves unless inside a crystal sphere)
Unless it's loaded with mages, any flying ship -- spelljammer or otherwise -- is toast if a dragon decides to attack. But that clearly doesn't happen every time a ship takes to the skies -- they're also not patrolling every square mile of the skies 24/10. We know spelljammers have visited the Realms. We know the Halruaans have skyships. We know of the Lost Ship, a skyship detailed in a couple of WotC Realmslore articles, lo those long-ago days when we got Realmslore on a weekly basis.
Sleyvas's United Tharchs of Toril isn't an idea that grabs me, but I have no specific objections to it, either.
I don't see any reason why Thayans can't be using their Quads to go to a hidden, orbital base. Me, I'd put the base on an apparently uninhabitable rock in the Tears, and have the Thayans use it as a stopping point before going to the Rock or points further. And it would be used by a smaller faction of Thayans, focused on trade -- not something that all of the Zulkirs would even be aware of.
If we were talking of a nation located in Toril, this applies. But if I understand correctly his United Tarch ideas, he is talking about a nation that developed on Abeir, a world where a city of dragons easily can have 30k inhabitants or so (see Marangor in Laerakond).
In a world which such a dragon population, I see a successful spelljamming nation something immersion breaking.
I'd have to check, but spelljammers may be able to outrun a dragon. I know outside of atmosphere they go amazingly fast.
As to them developing in Abeir, my idea would have it that 4 or more entire continents went to Abeir, but Faerun was too concerned with itself to take notice (Anchorome, Maztica, Lopango, Katashaka AND possibly Osse, the continent to the right of Katashaka, possibly the continents to the west and north of Anchorome). So, there's a LOT of territory. Throw into that that I'm trying incorporate the ideas by Seethyr which has things like great spirits that would protect the land from dragon incursions. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2020 : 00:47:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm afraid I'll have to vehemently argue this point. I have the comics, and his ship is referred to as a Halruann Skyship/Caravel. Though it did have the Astrolabe of Nimbral aboard that allowed the ship to also teleport; the Astrolabe was not the source of the ship's ability to fly.
Now, while the comic illustrators may not have depicted it as the same as was done in sourcebooks; it was indeed a skyship.
I have them, too. I bought them as they were coming out, and I've bought them again since then, having lost my original copies.
The ship sailed, unless it was teleporting -- it didn't fly. It didn't have the plates on the hull. It wasn't controlled by a control rod. And to even have it go straight up required recalibrating the Astrolabe pf Nimbral.
It was not a skyship. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2020 : 00:49:25
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
That would upset Aurora. She has been bringing in items from Kozakura for years. As fast as a spelljammer is, it can't beat a teleport. Plus, since she moves her entire warehouse every year, they have to have spells that deal with bulk moves so she could probably equal if not exceed the volume a spelljammer can transport in the same amount of time.
P.S. Anyone know why my font/color changed? I can't seem to change it to the normal one.
I don't think Aurora would care, unless it became a regular thing.
And a ship may be slower, but it could carry way more.
As for the font, it's a weirdness of the forum software: too many quotes make it go wonky. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2020 : 00:53:57
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd have to check, but spelljammers may be able to outrun a dragon. I know outside of atmosphere they go amazingly fast.
Yeah, a spelljammer can outrun a dragon. It can't outfight one, but it could outrun one. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2020 : 01:31:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm afraid I'll have to vehemently argue this point. I have the comics, and his ship is referred to as a Halruann Skyship/Caravel. Though it did have the Astrolabe of Nimbral aboard that allowed the ship to also teleport; the Astrolabe was not the source of the ship's ability to fly.
Now, while the comic illustrators may not have depicted it as the same as was done in sourcebooks; it was indeed a skyship.
I have them, too. I bought them as they were coming out, and I've bought them again since then, having lost my original copies.
The ship sailed, unless it was teleporting -- it didn't fly. It didn't have the plates on the hull. It wasn't controlled by a control rod. And to even have it go straight up required recalibrating the Astrolabe pf Nimbral.
It was not a skyship.
Issue 25 is where Labelas recreates the Realms Master. It no longer has the Astrolabe; but flies.
The Realms Master also flies at Helm before being destroyed because Labelas was trying to use it as a magical "spear" to fight through Helm.
I may be wrong; but looking at it...it seems to be a Skyship. I guess we could ask Jeff Grubb? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2020 : 02:23:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm afraid I'll have to vehemently argue this point. I have the comics, and his ship is referred to as a Halruann Skyship/Caravel. Though it did have the Astrolabe of Nimbral aboard that allowed the ship to also teleport; the Astrolabe was not the source of the ship's ability to fly.
Now, while the comic illustrators may not have depicted it as the same as was done in sourcebooks; it was indeed a skyship.
I have them, too. I bought them as they were coming out, and I've bought them again since then, having lost my original copies.
The ship sailed, unless it was teleporting -- it didn't fly. It didn't have the plates on the hull. It wasn't controlled by a control rod. And to even have it go straight up required recalibrating the Astrolabe pf Nimbral.
It was not a skyship.
Issue 25 is where Labelas recreates the Realms Master. It no longer has the Astrolabe; but flies.
The Realms Master also flies at Helm before being destroyed because Labelas was trying to use it as a magical "spear" to fight through Helm.
I may be wrong; but looking at it...it seems to be a Skyship. I guess we could ask Jeff Grubb?
Yeah, a god was trying to use it as a weapon. That changes things. If it had been a standard Halruaan skyship, Helm would have casually stepped to one side and waved as it went by -- they're too slow to be used as weapons against anything that isn't immobile.
Labelas obviously modified the ship, like he'd already done with the crew. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2020 : 00:15:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd have to check, but spelljammers may be able to outrun a dragon. I know outside of atmosphere they go amazingly fast.
Yeah, a spelljammer can outrun a dragon. It can't outfight one, but it could outrun one.
Thanks for saving me the checking. So, yeah, even if dragons were trying to rule the skies, its kind of hard to kill something that can outrun them. I don't see the people that would be piloting these ships being interested in fighting the dragon if they can simply go around them.
That does bring up an interesting idea though. Wouldn't it be interesting if some kind of "dragon detection" system were developed for ships (maybe simply a spell that can detect if a true dragon is within say a mile and a rough general direction corresponding to the 8 compass positions that might last for a while..... even something that works like an advance magic mouth where its cast and just has a larger detection range). Hell, someone may have developed such already within spelljammer and I just don't know about it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2020 : 00:37:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm afraid I'll have to vehemently argue this point. I have the comics, and his ship is referred to as a Halruann Skyship/Caravel. Though it did have the Astrolabe of Nimbral aboard that allowed the ship to also teleport; the Astrolabe was not the source of the ship's ability to fly.
Now, while the comic illustrators may not have depicted it as the same as was done in sourcebooks; it was indeed a skyship.
I have them, too. I bought them as they were coming out, and I've bought them again since then, having lost my original copies.
The ship sailed, unless it was teleporting -- it didn't fly. It didn't have the plates on the hull. It wasn't controlled by a control rod. And to even have it go straight up required recalibrating the Astrolabe pf Nimbral.
It was not a skyship.
Issue 25 is where Labelas recreates the Realms Master. It no longer has the Astrolabe; but flies.
The Realms Master also flies at Helm before being destroyed because Labelas was trying to use it as a magical "spear" to fight through Helm.
I may be wrong; but looking at it...it seems to be a Skyship. I guess we could ask Jeff Grubb?
Yeah, a god was trying to use it as a weapon. That changes things. If it had been a standard Halruaan skyship, Helm would have casually stepped to one side and waved as it went by -- they're too slow to be used as weapons against anything that isn't immobile.
Labelas obviously modified the ship, like he'd already done with the crew.
I have to agree with Wooly. From the original Shining South we see that they are slow, unwieldy, have problems rising even above the mountains that surround their homeland, and they can't carry a lot. Still, they have a lot of them.
The Halruan skyships are famed all through the Shining South. Even Elminster has described such vessels in his writings. Skyships are not to be confused with ships capable of spelljamming, although it is known that one can be outfitted with a spelljamming helm.
<snip>
The ship is at the mercy of the winds. The leeward panels do allow it some control, so that it can run before the winds and not he buffeted by them.
<snip>
Obviously this is no safe and steady fighting platform, although mages may cast spells from its deck. It is a large and clumsy target in aerial combat (maneuverability class E). It has a great degree of variability in speed and stability due to the chance of the wind and the turbulence created by other aerial bodies. Nonetheless, it is
very effective in dropping solid missiles, flaming oil, or other things upon hostile forces.
A skyship has its greatest buoyancy near the ground. At an altitude of 100' a standard skyship has a cargo displacement of 10 to 15 tons, a fraction of what a sea-going vessel can lift. This drops as the vessel climbs, until at 3600 feet it can lift little more than its won weight, and that of the crew. A standard crew is 20 to 30 men. If the ship is operating with a short crew, it can carry a bit more cargo. Since the Walls of Halruaa are much higher than 3600', such ships can
only leave Halruaa through one of the mountain passes, by sea, or via the High Aluar. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2020 : 01:05:12
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| Well those ships are not going to get to Selûne. Though is interesting effect the higher a ship goes the less it can carry. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2020 : 03:09:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well those ships are not going to get to Selûne. Though is interesting effect the higher a ship goes the less it can carry.
One could make if it was modified appropriately... The easiest (though not the cheapest!) modification would be to bolt a helm on it. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2020 : 04:33:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd have to check, but spelljammers may be able to outrun a dragon. I know outside of atmosphere they go amazingly fast.
Usually yes. Assuming they see it coming and won't run straight into the next dragon. 
Outside atmosphere only few dragons are a problem.
In the air, it's not clear how it's different from extreme wind. The ship carries the bubble with it, but this doesn't prevent mixing air, invading spores, etc. It's one of ill-defined things in Spelljammer. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2020 : 04:46:59
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd have to check, but spelljammers may be able to outrun a dragon. I know outside of atmosphere they go amazingly fast.
Usually yes. Assuming they see it coming and won't run straight into the next dragon.
Outside atmosphere only few dragons are a problem.
In the air, it's not clear how it's different from extreme wind. The ship carries the bubble with it, but this doesn't prevent mixing air, invading spores, etc. It's one of ill-defined things in Spelljammer.
Things like wind should definitely be an issue; nothing except other spells would protect a ship from weather and air flow. Note also that almost every dragon is more maneuverable than almost any Spelljamming vessel (Maneuverability classes for creatures and ships are different scales). Dragons would definitely be dangerous from that point of view, even if a Spelljamming ship can outrun them.
That also doesn't take into account merchants (especially less ethical ones like the Zhents) who would want to get their hands on a helm, and would definitely track and ambush a vessel known to have a helm (and quickly showing up in port a port with gods known to take longer would be very suspicious). There are also lots of wizards around who might want to get their hands on such magic, and many of them have teleport spells, which could easily get them on board ship.
Since none of the FR material indicates that spelljammers disrupt commerce, I think it is more important to identify how that is the case, than think up reasons why SJ traffic would disrupt commerce.
As to the period of the Spellplague, it is definitely possible the natural portals were disabled for the duration, as they were during the Avatar Crisis. The Netherese had a spell that could completely seal a sphere, although there is no evidence it was used (and those powerful spells are no longer available), but it is possible that some element of them were rediscovered and used, if you want a reason to seal or partially seal Realmspace.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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newbiedm
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2020 : 01:18:00
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fwiw, 3e's The Shining South refers to the Realms Master specifically as a skyship:
"It was eventually stolen by a particularly resourceful band
of adventurers led by the Halruaan wizard Dwalimar Omen and
taken back to his home nation. From there, it was installed on
the Halruaan skyship Realms Master and used by Omen and
several others to hunt down dangerous artifacts at the behest of
Netyarch Zalathorm"
that said, it looked like a regular ship, more so when compared to a skyship that appeared in the comics in one issue, and actually flew. |
Visit my D&D website at www.newbiedm.com |
Edited by - newbiedm on 26 May 2020 01:27:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2020 : 01:27:42
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quote:
Originally posted by newbiedm
fwiw, 3e's The Shining South refers to the Realms Master specifically as a skyship:
"It was eventually stolen by a particularly resourceful band
of adventurers led by the Halruaan wizard Dwalimar Omen and
taken back to his home nation. From there, it was installed on
the Halruaan skyship Realms Master and used by Omen and
several others to hunt down dangerous artifacts at the behest of
Netyarch Zalathorm"
I
Whoever wrote that clearly didn't bother to look at the comics. Like a lot of 3E stuff, prior lore was simply ignored. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2020 : 17:51:06
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Or simply the comic artist didn’t draw it correctly...
Still a skyship from all I’ve seen and read. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 01:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Or simply the comic artist didn’t draw it correctly...
Still a skyship from all I’ve seen and read.
The only time it flew was when a god forced it to fly. It took recalibrating the Astrolabe of Nimbral just to be able to make it go straight up.
So it wasn't just the art, it was also the writing. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 05:14:38
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Agreed...they wrote it wrong.
Still a skyship. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 05:33:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Agreed...they wrote it wrong.
Still a skyship.
So a ship that couldn't fly and has no resemblance to a skyship is still a skyship, because someone who couldn't be bothered to check the comics got it wrong? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 14:59:36
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The thrice damnable thing did fly...that is the point.
Just because Omen didn’t make it fly everywhere and this flaunting its ability doesn’t mean it COULDN’T fly.
It is officially called a skyship numerous times. It is a skyship. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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newbiedm
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2020 : 17:44:26
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Settled. Ed answered me on twitter when i asked him.
“ It's a proper skyship. Of the Halruaan sort (see my DRAGON article). Jeff and I discussed that, way back when.
It spent much of its time overloaded, though, so without the astrolabe it would glide downwards (crash landing if not steered to a suitable meadow or field).” |
Visit my D&D website at www.newbiedm.com |
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Why no more Spelljammer for Forgotten Realms
