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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2020 : 23:03:29
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Are there any gods in the FR who were once good but fell to evil, or good gods who have evil heresies among their ranks?
I'm thinking things like the Harlot's Coin Heresy within Waukeen's temple mentioned in Dragon #355
Planning a campaign and want to detail a place called the Joss Desert (it's part of the demon lord Graz'zt's Abyssal realm). There are no official descriptions of it besides lamia pilgrims coming from there to visit Graz'zt's temple.
"Joss" has a couple meanings, including:
- A Chinese household divinity
- A heathen idol
- Luck (informal)
So I was imagining a desert full of ruined idols. Since Graz'zt is a seductive corrupting figure, it would make sense if these idols belonged to good gods fallen to evil or with evil heresies.
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1253 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2020 : 04:28:52
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| Heresies, likely, but good gods that have fallen to evil...not that I can think of, unless you count Araunshnee becoming Lolth. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2020 : 05:13:48
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| Tyche's corruption (with following split in two)? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2020 : 05:39:23
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| Shar was once a creator of life and wasn’t “evil” until she was betrayed by Selune. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2020 : 15:35:11
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| Araushnee was the elven godess of destiny and partisans and part of the Seldarine, before becoming the evil godess Lolth. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2020 : 15:40:27
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Sharess (who in the current era seems to be Bast again, since Zandilar has returned as an individual goddess) nearly fell to evil, but it was because of Shar's corruption, and then Sune managed to make her snap out of it.
There are Lolth, Vhaeraun and Selvetarm, and Tyche being corrupted by Moander, generating Tymora and Beshaba.
Shar and Selune have the Dark Moon Heresy, which implies that they're 2 sides of the same coin.
Not a goddess, but Grazz't's whispers might have contributed to bring Zariel to the dark side.
Nothing else that's really relevant comes to mind, though. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Jan 2020 15:44:01 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2020 : 16:11:14
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| I'm not sure Lolth was ever good... Maybe she was neutral, but I don't think she was ever good. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1290 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2020 : 16:33:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not sure Lolth was ever good... Maybe she was neutral, but I don't think she was ever good.
It is just the same old story: boy meets girl, boy marries girl, boy and girl starts a family, girl gets jealous of boy so tries to get her kids to help kill boy, boy banishes girl and kids from hippy commune, girl goes goth and plots revenge. It happens all the time. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
332 Posts |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2020 : 08:47:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I’m curious because I don’t own that Dragon Mag issue. Is it referring to the time Waukeen spent with Grazzt?
Here’s an older thread on Piazza that has some information too.
http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=16179
Yep, that's exactly what the heresy refers to. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1587 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2020 : 17:26:52
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| Asmodeus is implied to be a fallen exemplar of Law, not an angel in the d&d sense. Prior to his fall, he was probably an aphanact. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2020 : 19:32:35
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| The Findish Codex II from 3.5 Edition tells the myth of Asmodeus being a fallen angel. I don't know if it was told anywhere how it really began. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1587 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2020 : 04:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
The Findish Codex II from 3.5 Edition tells the myth of Asmodeus being a fallen angel. I don't know if it was told anywhere how it really began.
He was probably an aphanact. They were a race of angelic creatures from Mechanus obsessed with Law, and were supposedly annihilated by either celestials, gods or fiends. The inevitables popped up after they were destroyed.
Replace 'destroyed' with 'tainted with Evil' and 'annihilated' with 'booted out into Baator', and it fits someone we know. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
959 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2020 : 14:11:25
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I think in 3.5 lore, Asmodeus (as well as others like Mephistopheles and Dispater) were Aphanacts, but in 4E lore, Asmodeus is an 4E Angel, specifically of an Archangel rank. These could be also compared or connected to Aphanacts though, as they are "Unaligned" (which contained Lawful Neutral) :
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Angel_(astral)
Asmodeus did and was created though serve an heavily Lawful Good Elder God - He Who Was (although one source at least implying he was closer to Lawful Neutral). |
Edited by - Baltas on 25 Jan 2020 14:18:18 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2020 : 23:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Sharess (who in the current era seems to be Bast again, since Zandilar has returned as an individual goddess) nearly fell to evil, but it was because of Shar's corruption, and then Sune managed to make her snap out of it.
There are Lolth, Vhaeraun and Selvetarm, and Tyche being corrupted by Moander, generating Tymora and Beshaba.
Shar and Selune have the Dark Moon Heresy, which implies that they're 2 sides of the same coin.
Not a goddess, but Grazz't's whispers might have contributed to bring Zariel to the dark side.
Nothing else that's really relevant comes to mind, though.
We don't know that Zandilar is separate from Sharess, it's not even mentioned and might only be a thing on FR, with say Zandilar's aspects in other Crystal Sphere's having never merged with Bast at all.
Or Sharess could be like the three in one Elven Goddess of Wisdom, Bast, Zandilar, and Felidae could be both independant and part of Sharess at the same time.
I will say both Bast in the PHB and Zandilar shared the shift to Chaotic Neutral in 5e, so who knows what Sharess'alignment is, although its suggests she is CN now for some unexplained reason.
Anyways Hoar was Neutral, became evil, and became Neutral again. Gilgeam was good once, a Hercules like figure, but eventually failures of Unther under his rule lead him to darkness and evil. And then he died. And then he lived again in a crazy world where Genasi's enslaved his people, only for him to return to Toril with his people on the verge of his victory over the Primordial Empire of Genasi.
Most of the Dark Seldarine where good or Neutral once, before all but one turned evil.
Garages might have been Neutral once until Tempus beat him at winning over worshippers, and he went off the deep end.
As a Mortal there was for a time a moment where Cyric was good, before they ruined his character and made him power, clever in a way, but stupid ultimately.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2536 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 00:32:37
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According to Ed, Sharess indeed returned to be Bast, but it seems that happened because she lost her popularity in the wider Realms, and her only significant cult is that of Bast in Mulhorand. It seems she was changed by the faith of her followers.
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1128716987188875265?s=20
As for Zandilar, the most probably is that she returned to be her own self during the Second Sundering. It happened to Azuth, for instance.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Jan 2020 00:34:18 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 14:49:20
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| Considering that she is the list of active deities in the MToF, it's very likely that it's the case. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12191 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 21:49:42
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| Amaunator and At'ar being a cruelly spiteful split from the god, while Amon was trapped away in the place that vestiges go. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 22:27:19
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| -Selvetarm wasn't always evil. He wasn't ever explicitly mentioned as being good, but we know that he "rejected" the ways of his father (Vhaeraun) and eventually came to start embracing the way Eilistraee did things after coming into contact with her and respecting her. All that changed when Lolth basically tricked him into fighting Zanassu the Spider Demon and absorbing his power. All the evil from Zanassu went into Selvetarm and turned him into the crazy evil guy he is today. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2020 : 01:02:48
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I can think of 2... The Solar Makizid, The Branded King, and Adimarchus, Demon Prince of Madness. Both Solars of tremendous power.
Hope this helps. If you want to know more about Malkizid.... read "The Last Mythal" trilogy. Circa 1374/ 1375 DR.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1587 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2020 : 01:39:32
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| Neither are gods, though. Malkizid was a solar, Adimarchus a planetar version of Dr Jekyll. |
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Good Gods fallen to evil or with evil heresies?
