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jinat
Acolyte
35 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 10:24:37
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In the Icewind dale trilogy it clearly states that the barbarians of icewindale are not Uthgardt, how ever in the 'silver marches' gaming supplement he is noted as being Uthgardt - can some one please explain.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 10:35:58
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While I'm not certain, this is my guess. When Ed Greenwood sold the publication rights to his world to TSR, many of the features we consider important parts of the Realms were not there. The first book designed to be part of the Realms was The Crystal Shard, and the entire area of Icewind Dale was created by that book. On Mr. Greenwood's maps, there was nothing there but glacier.
I can only assume that Mr. Salvatore thought that such a distance would be too great to assume the barbarians of Icewind Dale to be part of the Uthgardt. However -- again, this is my assumption -- the people writing the sourcebooks thought that this was too much, and made them "offical" Uthgardt.
However, if you pay attention, you'll find that the Uthgardt of Icewind Dale pay more attention to Tempos/Tempus than Uthgar or beast totems, at least compared to their relatives in the High Forest and other areas. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 10:44:51
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I would think that's a pretty safe assumption. I've seen some of the earliest maps released for the Realms, and for the most part the area of Icewind Dale is hardly detailed, there's not even a mention of Ten Towns. Although, after the Icewind Dale trilogy was released, that's when we started seeing more detail on the region. It's almost like it was created (by R A Salvatore, like the Bookwyrm said) after the initial design of Faerun was brought into being by the Grand Sage himself.
You may also want to ask Faraer, and maybe even George Krashos. I believe they would have some thoughts on this.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Lady Kazandra on 26 Apr 2004 10:46:44 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 10:47:07
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It was.
Apparently, Mr. Salvatore, once he found out that the Moonshaes weren't the whole Realms, got really excited over all this world to chose from and being able to break ground. So he looked aroud for a bit to see what there was on the Big Map that could catch his fancy. He pointed at an area on the other side of the Spine of the World, and asked "What's there?" The answer was "Nothing," so that's where Mr. Salvatore decided to set up his playground.
So yes. It was after the fact. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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jinat
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 11:28:30
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Hmmmm.......
Does anybody know if mr. Salvatore refered to Wulfgar as an Uthgardt in later novels? |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 13:02:36
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Not as far as I can remember, although I still have several Drizzt books to get through.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 13:06:31
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Would you believe that neither the Uthgardt nor the Icewind Dale barbarians were from Ed ideas? The former were created for FR5 Savage Frontier by Paul Jaquays and the latter (obviously) by RA Salvatore.
Races of Faerun makes it clear that the Reghedmen (Icewind Dale barbarians) are descendants of humans who were originally from the lands west, beyond the Trackless Sea, who settled ancient Illusk. After the fall of this "first" Illusk in -2103DR to orcs and ogres, the surviving humans fled north becoming the Reghedmen.
The Uthgardt were formed much later, beginning in c. 123DR, after the death of Uthgar, a Ruathym Illuskan (or Northman). The Uthgardt are a mix of Illuskan stock and Netherese stock. In my opinion, the Reghedmen are not Uthgardt but Illuskan (as per Races of Faerun).
As Bookwyrm noted, they don't seem to have any beast totem affinity and worship Tempus ("Tempos") almost exclusively. I think Silver Marches was a bit imprecise in its terminology.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 13:27:12
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So Mr. Greenwood wasn't responsible for the creation of the "Uthgardt" barbarians either. Hmmmn, that's interesting. I hadn't even noticed that the Silver Marches tome did not make this distinction between Uthgardt, and Illuskan.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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AraznBlair
Learned Scribe
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 14:52:46
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I had a chance to meet RA Salvatore during a book signing and he told us how he became involved with the Realms. He said the when he was asked to write a book for TSR he had only read the Moonshaes trilogy. He wrote a book based on that area that had Wulfgar as being from those isles. After a draft was completed he was told that he needed to use a different setting. So he looked at a map and started picking places. At each place he was told no, some other author had claimed it. So when he saw the glacier above the Spine of the World and was told that no one had claim on it he said: That is Icewind Dale and there is Ten Towns.
As for the Icewind Dale Barbarians, I thought that they were related to the Uthgardt but turned to Tempus. |
Arazn Blair
Fightermage Extrodinare |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 20:04:14
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| The Uthgardt, technically, are servents of Tempus. They're named after Uthgar, a warrior that Tempus took a liking too and raised him to demigodship over his people. Or something like that. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 02:07:29
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I do know that Wulfgar was originally from the tribe of the Elk, and was captured by Bruenor Battlehammer when they assaulted ten towns. He Later Went and Killed the Leader of the Tribe of the Elk making him the leader. Salvatore also gves mention to the Skyponys in one of his books though i dont recall which one. Now i dont know about this but arnt the Tribes that follow the Animal Totems Uthgart? I had thought so. I belive that ill do some reseach....
-The Rogue |
"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 02:17:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
The Uthgardt, technically, are servents of Tempus. They're named after Uthgar, a warrior that Tempus took a liking too and raised him to demigodship over his people. Or something like that.
Yup. Tempus is the only other god acceptable for worship by the hardcore Uthgardt. He may also be their salvation in terms of retaining their cultural identity. I can't help but see Uthgardt losing nearly all his worshippers in the not so distant future. Each clan is facing large hurdles to retaining their way of life. As the Marches become more and more civilized the agressive clans will most likely brought to heel. They will be faced with either extinction or taming, such as has begun with the Black Lion and to a degree with the Ghost Tree Tribe.
I can see three ways for Uthgardts to retain aspects of their lifestyle:
1. Move to more inhospitable climates -- such as where the Sky Pony live. This isn't too likely being that they would have to give up their ancestral mounds. It would most likely require some sort of supernatural mandate.
2. Officially join the church of Tempus where other worshippers of Tempus can be indoctrinated into the various beast totem hero cults. This would lead to a very watered-down variation on current Uthgardt worship, but would allow it to survive.
3. Officially join the Silver Marches federation and create a special military unit composed solely of Uthgardt where their savage life-style can be used to the benefit of the Marches. They would most likely be kept as far away from the civilized sections of the Marches in border defense and used as cannon-fodder during large battles.
My take on it.
Sarta |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 02:35:51
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And an interesting take it is. I hadn't considered it in those terms.
If I were writing the story, I'd probably go for a mix of 2 and 3. You're right about their ties to the land, so I think that's the least likely. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Barbarians of Icewinddale
