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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Nov 2019 : 03:29:29
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So I'm having a problem...
How in the hells have the Dales managed to not be absorbed outright by anyone that wants their land?
As an example: Shadowdale has a population of about 1,400 people...TOTAL as of FRS1 (2nd edition AD&D supplement). That is a pretty small population to resist incursions by rogue bands of bandits, Zhentish incursions and so on. Attrition alone should have worn the people out by now. I know Shadowdale is home to lots of adventurers (both native and visiting); but this still doesn't sit right with me.
It isn't so much that I don't think Shadowdale can't defend itself; it is the population given in FRS1 that doesn't sit well with me.
Dales populations (approximate):
Archendale: 4,950
Battledale: 2,980
Daggerdale: 3,700 (including invaders)
Deepingdale: 4,700
Featherdale: 2,565
Harrowdale: 3,415
The High Dale: 1,295
Mistledale: 4,945
Scardale: 8,060
Shadowdale: 1,400
Tassledale: 6,300
TOTAL DALES POPULATION: 44,310
I'm concerned about these populations versus what it is they are dealing with as far as foes.
Am I reading too much into this; or shouldn't they have larger populations considering the amount of time the Dales have existed and the lands that they inhabit?
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2019 : 04:27:27
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Aren't those population figures just for the main communities, and not for the outlying areas?
It's not going to dramatically impact the numbers, but I think it will balance things out somewhat. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2019 : 04:33:35
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Nope, those are the total numbers...counting towns and outlying areas all together.
For example: Shadowdale has 500 in "town" and 900 more in the entire Dale. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2019 : 10:14:59
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I think some explanation can be given that populations in the Realms just aren’t that high elsewhere either. And while the Dales might be sparsely populated they’re also home to some really powerful adventurers who somewhat skew their effectiveness higher. One of Shadowdale’s 500 residents is Elminster after all.
At least traditionally. |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2019 : 11:44:56
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Also, looking it up, according to the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, these are the full populations of each of the Dales;
Archendale: 92,300
Battledale: 32,714
Daggerdale: 28,041
Deepingdale: 50,289
Featherdale: 14,020
Harrowdale: 42,061
High Dale: 8,179
Mistledale: 27,807
Scardale: 125,015
Shadowdale: 14,020
Tasseldale: 14,020
That's a total of around 448,466 or so.
In addition the remaining population of Cormanthor has a population of 154,223, which puts the population up to around 602,689 people.
The 'surrounding settlements' listed in earlier sources probably means farms and homesteads immediately outside of the capitals of the Dales. It's probably the case that someone noticed that the numbers in FRS1 were a little off and boosted them up a bit for the total size of the Dales. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2019 : 16:34:10
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That's right, because several of the seven sisters moved into the area, and well.... they were chopping wood in the nude and all... and so the men who were peeping on them from the surrounding woods kinda went home "happy".... and there was a resulting population explosion. Its all well and thoroughly documented  |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2019 : 18:59:56
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Looking at the maps there a lot of diffrent factions around the Dalelands. Each of them having their own interests and goals, some of them for good, others for evil or conquest. But those that are out for conquest don't work together. They hate each other and everyone wants to trump the other.
So if the Zhents would try to march into the dales they wouldn't only have to deal with multiple daleland communities, organizations like the harpers or famous heros, but also with other citystaes like Hillsfar, that don't want the Zhents to get more influence. Depending on the situation Cormyr or the Elves of Cormanthor might also intervene.
If Sembia would try to increase its influence over the dales, Cormyr would definatly intervene.
So the whole reagion consists of diffrent entitys holding each other in check and it needs some special happenings for one to get the advantage over the rest, like the return of Shade. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2019 : 22:30:36
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From one extreme to the other...I can't see how giving 125,000+ to Scardale makes any more sense than only having 8,000+; especially if the population of the settlements doesn't change.
Tassledale is supposed to be one of the most populous dales for its size and in 3.x they only have 14,000+
There are obvious differences of opinion in what the Dales should look like population-wise.
I suppose I'll just assign numbers that are more meaningful to my own campaign and move on and not dwell too deeply on it.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2019 : 12:53:24
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Also, there are really three 'tiers' of population in each dale. There is 'in town', which is exactly what it means. And the 'Outlying areas' is the confusing part, but if we split it in to two groups, it explains the contradictory figures above.
The 1st 'Outlying area' is for Shadowdale itself - THE VILLAGE (or whatever is the main settlement of each particular Dale). Those are the people that are part of THAT community, but don't live in the town proper. They live within a day or two's journey from it. Most dales have several villages within them, each with their own 'outlying area'.
The 2nd 'Outlying area' is for the Dale itself - the ENTIRE Dale, including plenty of people who aren't even part of a village's 'outlying area'. This would be that larger number from the 3rd edition FR sourcebook quoted above.
At least, thats what I would go with. Also remember that, despite the existence of magic, this is a medieval level world, and 'logistics' plays an important factor. Most settlements would know when an enemy was coming and could prepare, or flee. Extended 'sieges' would rarely work, firstly because of the realistic factor of weather (campaign season wasn't very long). A good RW example of this is invading Russia, something both Hitler and Napoleon found out the hard way ain't so easy. The second thing is 'unnatural', or rather, those very same powerful NPCs we always hear about. A sneak attack on an outlying settlement is all well and good, followed by a hasty retreat, but anything that lasts longer tends to attract the attentions of powerful types, both good & evil, and even the evil ones might not want the 'status quo' disturbed, especially if it was a rival trying to grab more power. For example, if some powerful force tried to completely takeover the Shining Vale, you can bet your bottom-dollar that Larloch would get involved, being that he wouldn't want anything too powerful sitting on his northern doorstep. I wouldn't even be surprised if he had a hand in restocking Dragonspear every so often, both as a distraction, and also to have some powerful impediment to keep anyone from trying to take the region. He was a Chosen, after all, and stocking dungeons is one of their jobs. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Nov 2019 12:55:45 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2019 : 20:14:58
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Very good question Dalor. As I am using it dales are mostly rural area with some small cities/villages as their "capitol's". There are few political reasons why they are not already under occupation.
First is travel - there are only three crossing of Ashaba river - bridge in Shadowdale and Featherdale and ford in Ashabenford. Nobody wants any major political power to hold those as it would make them even more powerful.
Second is land - there is not much to gain as those are forested valleys fit only for agriculture. It changed temporarily as elves retreated and there was a huge power struggle but sadly elves returned even faster and situation is back where it was.
Third is resistance - each time a dale was occupied there was a long standing civil war in the region so you have to keep spending money and men to keep it. There is simply not enough reason to do that. |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2019 : 20:23:20
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I am born and raised in only rural towns in Wisconsin; I've moved to the 'big cities' that have populations of 42,800 and now to 74, 650. And yes, I know, those aren't big cities in the slightest. However, those population numbers are all enlarged due to in-city numbers; the rural numbers cannot match or outpace those numbers at all. The only way that makes sense is to use 1E numbers. The Dale is a tiny village, and the outlying areas have higher populations due to a family of 25 through 3 generations of a single family living on a single plat. But, all that farmland takes up a lot of real estate; so again, population density cannot be that high.
The most obvious difficulty in all this is in wondering how large is the Dalelands proper? I once upon a time would just imagine it the size of my home state of Wisconsin-which is also around the size of Germany. A world war did end in that region, so that's definitely large enough to accommodate the Dalelands in my mind.
However, if the 3E numbers are 'more accurate', then perhaps the Dalelands are the size of the entire Midwest. Maybe? Maybe not. I don't imagine being able to cross out of Cormyr and ride across the entirety of the dales from Deepingdale to Harrowdale in a day...or should I?
World building is hard! |
Edited by - Renin on 26 Nov 2019 01:42:31 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 23:18:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Renin
I am born and raised in only rural towns in Wisconsin; I've moved to the 'big cities' that have populations of 42,800 and now to 74, 650. And yes, I know, those aren't big cities in the slightest. However, those population numbers are all enlarged due to in-city numbers; the rural numbers cannot match or outpace those numbers at all. The only way that makes sense is to use 1E numbers. The Dale is a tiny village, and the outlying areas have higher populations due to a family of 25 through 3 generations of a single family living on a single plat. But, all that farmland takes up a lot of real estate; so again, population density cannot be that high.
The most obvious difficulty in all this is in wondering how large is the Dalelands proper? I once upon a time would just imagine it the size of my home state of Wisconsin-which is also around the size of Germany. A world war did end in that region, so that's definitely large enough to accommodate the Realms in my mind.
However, if the 3E numbers are 'more accurate', then perhaps the Dalelands are the size of the entire Midwest. Maybe? Maybe not. I don't imagine being able to cross out of Cormyr and ride across the entirety of the dales from Deepingdale to Harrowdale in a day...or should I?
World building is hard!
If you had a car you could cross entire dalelands in a day. Sadly in wagon it takes about a month...
Germany might be slightly bigger than dalelands depending on what you count into them.
Whole Realms are certainly bigger even if you count only Faerun... Wisconsin is not center of the Realms - that is Ed Greenwood :-) (Realms are Ed-centric) |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2019 : 01:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Renin
I am born and raised in only rural towns in Wisconsin; I've moved to the 'big cities' that have populations of 42,800 and now to 74, 650. And yes, I know, those aren't big cities in the slightest. However, those population numbers are all enlarged due to in-city numbers; the rural numbers cannot match or outpace those numbers at all. The only way that makes sense is to use 1E numbers. The Dale is a tiny village, and the outlying areas have higher populations due to a family of 25 through 3 generations of a single family living on a single plat. But, all that farmland takes up a lot of real estate; so again, population density cannot be that high.
The most obvious difficulty in all this is in wondering how large is the Dalelands proper? I once upon a time would just imagine it the size of my home state of Wisconsin-which is also around the size of Germany. A world war did end in that region, so that's definitely large enough to accommodate the Realms in my mind.
However, if the 3E numbers are 'more accurate', then perhaps the Dalelands are the size of the entire Midwest. Maybe? Maybe not. I don't imagine being able to cross out of Cormyr and ride across the entirety of the dales from Deepingdale to Harrowdale in a day...or should I?
World building is hard!
If you had a car you could cross entire dalelands in a day. Sadly in wagon it takes about a month...
Germany might be slightly bigger than dalelands depending on what you count into them.
Whole Realms are certainly bigger even if you count only Faerun... Wisconsin is not center of the Realms - that is Ed Greenwood :-) (Realms are Ed-centric)
Whoops! I typed Realms when I meant Dalelands! I must edit myself! |
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Dales Population
