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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Is what I have to say after reading this:

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1179564813615284224?s=19

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Now, as for Bane, I can tell you this: as a mortal, he lived centuries ago, and upon his death his soul was snatched and stored by Jergal, who Had Plans for his own retirement, and was looking for certain qualities in a successor (in the case of Bane, a quenchless hunger to rule all, and be feared by all through the maliciousness and malevolent intentiveness of his rule). [So Bane died long before his ascension to godhood.]

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Originally posted by George Krashos

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Is what I have to say after reading this:

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1179564813615284224?s=19

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Now, as for Bane, I can tell you this: as a mortal, he lived centuries ago, and upon his death his soul was snatched and stored by Jergal, who Had Plans for his own retirement, and was looking for certain qualities in a successor (in the case of Bane, a quenchless hunger to rule all, and be feared by all through the maliciousness and malevolent intentiveness of his rule). [So Bane died long before his ascension to godhood.]

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No, I think the Two (Bhaal and Myrkul) were led along by the nose by Jergal (masquerading as Bane) who "gave up" various of his portfolios, and yet retained his divinity. More and more interesting.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

That is very interesting.

Everyone assumed the Dark Three were harvesting the lost gods for their own purposes (ascension) but in fact they were being directly manipulated by jergal to help him.

So what would jergal need with the energies of several powerful quasi deities


I suspect he was trapped following his ritual in ascore and that energy might have been used to release him. Does this mean that Bane was killed way before -339 DR or that he died around -339 DR trying to get into Ascore.

Perhaps the ascension of the dark three was a complete unintended side effect of jergal trying to escape his quasi divine existence

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Originally posted by Wrigley

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

That is very interesting.

Everyone assumed the Dark Three were harvesting the lost gods for their own purposes (ascension) but in fact they were being directly manipulated by jergal to help him.

So what would jergal need with the energies of several powerful quasi deities


I suspect he was trapped following his ritual in ascore and that energy might have been used to release him. Does this mean that Bane was killed way before -339 DR or that he died around -339 DR trying to get into Ascore.

Perhaps the ascension of the dark three was a complete unintended side effect of jergal trying to escape his quasi divine existence

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Does Ed know about George's Jergal theory? It seems to me he doesn't and this is a hint of another version of this story...
For me Jergal's involvement in whole Dark Three before they even know it was clear long time ago - he handed them Jathiman dagger, he given them his portfolio willingly. Right after that boom - Netheril falls, Jhaamdath falls, Narfel and Raumathar falls - does anybody said Lord of End of Everything?

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Originally posted by ericlboyd
There are two key villains in the history of the Realms that have shaped the fate of empires for thousands of years.

One of them is Jergal.

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Originally posted by Wrigley

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Originally posted by ericlboyd
There are two key villains in the history of the Realms that have shaped the fate of empires for thousands of years.

One of them is Jergal.

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Thank you for confirming it .-)
Let me guess, the other one is Moander?

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

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Originally posted by Wrigley
Thank you for confirming it .-)
Let me guess, the other one is Moander?

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Not Moander. Not the sarrukh guy. (He's a bit player.)

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

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Originally posted by Wrigley

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Originally posted by ericlboyd
There are two key villains in the history of the Realms that have shaped the fate of empires for thousands of years.

One of them is Jergal.

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Thank you for confirming it .-)
Let me guess, the other one is Moander?

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Not Moander. Not the sarrukh guy. (He's a bit player.)

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

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Originally posted by Wrigley

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

That is very interesting.

Everyone assumed the Dark Three were harvesting the lost gods for their own purposes (ascension) but in fact they were being directly manipulated by jergal to help him.

So what would jergal need with the energies of several powerful quasi deities


I suspect he was trapped following his ritual in ascore and that energy might have been used to release him. Does this mean that Bane was killed way before -339 DR or that he died around -339 DR trying to get into Ascore.

Perhaps the ascension of the dark three was a complete unintended side effect of jergal trying to escape his quasi divine existence

---

Does Ed know about George's Jergal theory? It seems to me he doesn't and this is a hint of another version of this story...
For me Jergal's involvement in whole Dark Three before they even know it was clear long time ago - he handed them Jathiman dagger, he given them his portfolio willingly. Right after that boom - Netheril falls, Jhaamdath falls, Narfel and Raumathar falls - does anybody said Lord of End of Everything?

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There are two key villains in the history of the Realms that have shaped the fate of empires for thousands of years.

One of them is Jergal.

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

So, here's my theory on changing the course of history in the Realms.

The gods, while powerful, rarely, if ever, change the course of history. (If they do change it, it's more while they are mortal than immortal that they have such an effect.) As immortals, gods are more the embodiment of certain aspects of life than active participants. In a sense, their portfolios cancel each other out, with localized exceptions, often solved by adventurers.

There are certainly powerful creatures, like Inferno, Larloch, or Aumvor the Undying, who can kill almost anyone they meet, but haven't chosen to dramatically change the course of history.

There are individuals, like Shoon VII, who acquire power and build empires, but they do so at the head of a society that is ascendant. Likewise there are powerful empires that rise and fall, e.g. Shanatar, who fates are tied to the decisions of countless individuals.

There are individuals who show greatness at a point in time, thus changing the course in history. But their influence is more at a single point in history. (Frodo and Bilbo Baggins would be examples from LoTR.)

Then there are individuals, who, over time, swing the course of history in major ways through honeyed words and influence. I would divide such individuals into three tiers.

Third Tier
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These are beings that seek to play such a role. They may dramatically alter the course of a kingdom's history or region's history, but not end the kingdom or culture altogether.

Soneillion is an example from the Third Tier. She's dramatically influencing the course of Impiltur's history, but she hasn't broken it yet. Likewise, she dramatically influenced the course of Chondath's history, but again, didn't quite break it.

Second Tier
=========
These are individuals who dramatically altered the fate of kingdoms or empires in a localized region.

Malkizid is an example of this tier. He corrupted House Dlardrageth, which in turn led to the the destruction of Siluvanede, Sharrven, and Siluvanede. He dramatically impact the history of part of the North, but his influence was largely constrained to that region.

Wendonai is also an example of this tier. He corrupted the Ilythiiri, which led to the creation of the drow, but the drow don't rule the whole Underdark, only pieces of it, and the Ilythiiri were simply responding to the madness of Clan Vyshaan of Aryvandaar.

The Terraseer is also an example of this tier. He played a major role in shaping the history of the Netherese, but didn't really cause their rise or fall.

First Tier
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The first tier includes individuals who have impact the course of history across much of Faerun. In my mind, there are really two events that qualify in the western half of Faerun.

The first qualifying event is the rise and fall of Netheril. What caused a small tribe of humans to rise up and become one of the most powerful empires in Faerun? Who was really behind their eventual fall? After its fall, the Netherese diaspora shaped the North, the western Heartlands, the Moonsea regions, and the Shining South. In my mind, the kickstarting and shaping of Netheril's arc can all be traced back to centuries of years of subtle influence by Jergal.

The second qualifying event is the shattering of the elven realms that rules much, if not all of western Faerun, during the Crown Wars. The root of all that chaos lies at the feet of Clan Vyshaan. The question is, why did Clan Vyshaan behave as they did. In my mind, the individual that shaped Clan Vyshaan is the unnamed other villain of western Faerun. Our theory on that villain is at the root of Crown of Eaerlann. And I think found we enough lore to lead to support the case.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Eric detailed a bit in his conversion of the Age of Worms, that the one of the first Netherese Archwizards studied Necromancy with the Spellweavers, and founded the church of Jergal upon his return.

George went further in his take on Jergal:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160831114556/http://realmssecretariat.com/jergal/

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

So, here's my theory on changing the course of history in the Realms.

The gods, while powerful, rarely, if ever, change the course of history. (If they do change it, it's more while they are mortal than immortal that they have such an effect.) As immortals, gods are more the embodiment of certain aspects of life than active participants. In a sense, their portfolios cancel each other out, with localized exceptions, often solved by adventurers.

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Originally posted by sleyvas


Yeah, but I think we can all agree that when Amaunator secretly informed Thayd of the gate system, by using Jergal to speak through Nergal, that led to the world of the orcs that ultimately led to the death of two rival sun gods (Ra and Utu), he wasn't performing a good act. Of course, that's why Nergal was buried outside of their homeland, but then everyone knows that.

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Originally posted by Baltas

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Originally posted by sleyvas


Yeah, but I think we can all agree that when Amaunator secretly informed Thayd of the gate system, by using Jergal to speak through Nergal, that led to the world of the orcs that ultimately led to the death of two rival sun gods (Ra and Utu), he wasn't performing a good act. Of course, that's why Nergal was buried outside of their homeland, but then everyone knows that.

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Wait what? Did that happen in canon, or some of the Forgotten Realms writers wrote about this? Or is this something from your campaign, a theory, or joke?

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Originally posted by ericlboyd


First Tier
=======
The first tier includes individuals who have impact the course of history across much of Faerun. In my mind, there are really two events that qualify in the western half of Faerun.

The first qualifying event is the rise and fall of Netheril. What caused a small tribe of humans to rise up and become one of the most powerful empires in Faerun? Who was really behind their eventual fall? After its fall, the Netherese diaspora shaped the North, the western Heartlands, the Moonsea regions, and the Shining South. In my mind, the kickstarting and shaping of Netheril's arc can all be traced back to centuries of years of subtle influence by Jergal.

The second qualifying event is the shattering of the elven realms that rules much, if not all of western Faerun, during the Crown Wars. The root of all that chaos lies at the feet of Clan Vyshaan. The question is, why did Clan Vyshaan behave as they did. In my mind, the individual that shaped Clan Vyshaan is the unnamed other villain of western Faerun. Our theory on that villain is at the root of Crown of Eaerlann. And I think found we enough lore to lead to support the case.


Feel free to add your own nominations to the three tiers.

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