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digitalelf
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2019 : 22:52:23
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I recall reading that the Forgotten Realms were the official home of 2nd edition. All I could find were two references, one in Forgotten Realms Adventures and one in the revised boxed set that basically said that 2nd edition provides a home for the Forgotten Realms. But I recall reading something more definitive than that... Something that said it was not simply "A" home, but "THE" home.
Does anyone recall reading this? And perhaps where it could be found?
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-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
(DM of the Realms since 1987) |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2019 : 23:00:14
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It was, yes. Though in 2e that meant less than it has in later editions. The 2e PHB didn't have lists of deities, for instance. The Realms was the primary setting for 2e, with Greyhawk going mostly into hiatus and all of the other systems being "D&D in a [blank]". But 2e was set up so that most things were were optional and often setting-neutral. Think all of the Complete Handbooks, for instance.
So yes, the Realms were 2e's official setting. They had the largest novel line and the highest number of products released each year. But it was a looser time, and TSR was publishing a lot of different settings, so there was a lot to choose from. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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digitalelf
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2019 : 23:05:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
It was, yes. Though in 2e that meant less than it has in later editions.
Thank you for the reply. 
Do you recall where this was stated? |
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
(DM of the Realms since 1987) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 03:42:23
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quote:
Originally posted by digitalelf
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
It was, yes. Though in 2e that meant less than it has in later editions.
Thank you for the reply.
Do you recall where this was stated?
I don't think it was officially stated, anywhere.
The thing was, in 2E, we had the Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Birthright, and Dark Sun, all as D&D settings. There were a couple other settings being published, too, like Red Steel and the Known World, but those weren't 2E AD&D, as I recall.
And there was a lot of stuff not set in any one setting, like a lot of the adventure modules and the PHBR books. And there were also at least a couple of "campaign in a box" releases, like Night Below or Dragon Mountain, that were meant to be entire campaigns, without being set in a specific setting.
But, as Hoondatha stated, the Realms was the setting that was supposed to accommodate anything that was official 2E material. It wasn't that the Realms was the official setting of 2E, as it was intended to be the one setting where everything official could be worked in. Not everything 2E was in the Realms, but it could be.
You see, a lot of those other settings had their own schtick going on. In Dragonlance, for example, everything had a connection to the War of the Lance. And there were no drow or halflings there. Dark Sun had some of the standard races, but all of them were really different, the tech level was different, and the setting was built around psionics. Birthright was about kingdoms and nations. Ravenloft was Gothic horror. Planescape was about getting to go hang out in the places gods, elementals, and fiends came from, and Spelljammer was taking straight D&D into space.
So all of those settings had their own unique stuff, and their own unique flavors. And stuff from one may or may not fit into another, and stuff that was core -- not designed for any specific setting -- may not work in some of these specialized settings.
Part of the intent of the Realms -- from TSR/WotC's standpoint -- was to be that place where if it was core, it could be used. That's how it was the home of 2E -- if it wasn't specifically tied to another setting, it could be used in the Realms.
One of the many reasons TSR wound up folding was that they were spreading too thin and trying to do too much. When 3E came around, Greyhawk was officially the 3E setting, but it received no support aside from some references in the core rulebooks -- mostly in regards to deities. I have no proof, but I believe this was part of the price of getting Gary Gygax back aboard.
However, despite the fact that Greyhawk was the official setting, 3E only saw the publication of two settings: Eberron and the Realms.
And then came 4E, when the only published setting was the Realms -- and it didn't get a lot of support, and the stuff it did get no longer had a Forgotten Realms logo. This has continued into 5E. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Sep 2019 03:45:42 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 09:51:06
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Greyhawk was Gygax's setting so it was TSR's official setting for 1E.
Dragonlance surged in popularity for a while but never really stayed popular beyond 1E.
The Realms also surged in popularity... it also rode on the success of CRPGs (like Eye of the Beholder, Pool of Radiance, and Baldur's Gate) and best-seller novels (as Drizzt kept hacking his way towards increasingly lucrative revenues).
The "core" 2E rulebooks (PHB, DMG, etc) carried over Gygax's Greyhawk references so Greyhawk was still assumed to be TSR's "official" AD&D setting. But Forgotten Realms was the real money-maker, and it attracted a lot of authors/designers, so all the "core" (Greyhawk) stuff was eventually shoehorned into the Realms... thus Khelben devising a counterspell vs Bigby spells, Mordenkainen (and Raistlin) hanging out with Elminster, Vecna's accursed hand and eye extending their grasp into the Realms, etc.
Numerous other settings and mini-settings were developed during 2E, some were isolated or interlinked standalones, some were intended specifically for Grehawk or Dragonlance, but most were directly placed in or indirectly linked to the Forgotten Realms. It was known as the "flagship" setting while it was functionally (unofficially) the "official" setting.
Notice that the Underdark was initially set on/under Oerth - and apparently can still connect to it, somehow - but it became decisively set on/under Toril instead. Notice how Spelljammer links Oerth, Krynn, and Toril and many other worlds (and is indeed a setting "world" itself) yet the focus of most Spelljammer lore and adventures seems to usually be Realmspace. Notice how Planescape spans nearly the entire cosmos yet whenever it touches upon the Primes it seems to pick Realms over Greyhawk (over every other world setting) almost every time. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Sep 2019 10:02:49 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 11:57:04
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The most egregious example of this was in Ed's "Drow of the Underdark" sourcebook where the editors - not Ed - added the GH drow cities to the list of dark elf cities existing in the Realms.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 15:23:48
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The most egregious example of this was in Ed's "Drow of the Underdark" sourcebook where the editors - not Ed - added the GH drow cities to the list of dark elf cities existing in the Realms.
-- George Krashos
Did that happen with more than one? I thought it was only one city that got added, and that someone went back and added a portal there to make it two connected cities, one on each side. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 20:19:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And then came 4E, when the only published setting was the Realms -- and it didn't get a lot of support, and the stuff it did get no longer had a Forgotten Realms logo. This has continued into 5E.
In fact, in 4e the novels still had the FR logo, and besides the Realms, settings such as the Nentir Vale/Points of Light, Dark Sun and Eberron also were published, with sourcebooks and adventures; and other settings got support in Dragon and Dungeon mags also (Dragonlance and Greyhawk). And the Realms got A LOT of support, even getting at least three magazines dedicated solely to FR articles.
I guess you may be talking about 5e. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Sep 2019 20:21:18 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 20:28:43
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| 5e has setting books for Eberron and Ravnica |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 22:16:02
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| But no support for them beyond those sources, and the last novels don't have a logo. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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doccarnby
Acolyte
16 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 22:23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
When 3E came around, Greyhawk was officially the 3E setting, but it received no support aside from some references in the core rulebooks -- mostly in regards to deities. I have no proof, but I believe this was part of the price of getting Gary Gygax back aboard.
Greyhawk wasn't totally abandoned in 3E, there was the Living Greyhawk thing that the RPGA ran that at the very least advanced the timeline a bit and it did get some little bits here and there. With the exception of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer though it was pretty much magazine articles (there was the Living Greyhawk Journal that was exclusive to it, but it got merged into Dragon and Dungeon, in that order) and the Wizards website. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 02:42:15
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AD&D2 was implicitly Greyhawk (named spells), but actual modules including adventures in magazines AFAIK were either explicitly marked or "drop-in"/one shot.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[..] There were a couple other settings being published, too, like Red Steel and the Known World, but those weren't 2E AD&D, as I recall.
Red Steel was a spin-off of BD&D Mystara, but made in AD&D2. No "psionics:" lines for monsters, no "alignment languages".
AD&D 2e Player's Handbook - published in 1989, Red Steel Campaign Expansion - published in 1994, and per Savage Coast book, even requested well in AD&D2 era:
quote:
In 1992, I was asked to work on a product that eventually became known as the RED STEEL® campaign.
- Tim Beach, May 1995
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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digitalelf
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 23:21:05
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I have found a few more statements from Jeff Grubb from articles in Dragon Magazine. Most are the same as those within the two FR products I mentioned in my OP.
The most specific statement I found from him appeared in issue #153 of Dragon Magazine (January, 1990):
quote:
The FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is TSR's official AD&D 2nd Edition world.
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-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
(DM of the Realms since 1987) |
Edited by - digitalelf on 24 Sep 2019 23:23:33 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2019 : 12:25:21
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There was no "official setting" in 2nd edition. There was generic AD&D and there was setting specific material. You had Forgotten Realms, Al Qadim (also set on the same world), Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Spelljammer (set in space all around all the settings), Dark Sun, Birthright, Jakandor, Planescape, Ravenloft, and Mystara.
What 2nd E did was to make the ALL official settings, by linking them all with Spelljammer and Planescape. This basically made official Ed's original "forgotten realms" many worlds idea of the multiverse... Many Prime settings within a large universe that was just one plane on a bigger multi-planar level of existence. This was touched on in 1st edition but 2nd made it official. This had some problems but I think they worked it out alright. |
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digitalelf
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2019 : 02:18:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
There was no "official setting" in 2nd edition.
Except that in January of 1990, Jeff Grubb stated: "The FORGOTTEN REALMS setting IS TSR's official AD&D 2nd Edition world."
And it was after all, Jeff Grubb that designed other settings for 2nd edition such as Spelljammer and Al-Qadim, so for him to make such a definitive statement about the Forgotten Realms says a lot.
That being said however...
The last time that Jeff Grubb (or anyone else at TSR) stated that FR was the official setting of AD&D 2nd Edition, was in 1993 (with the release of the revised FR boxed set). One year later, Jeff Grubb left TSR, and never again was it said that FR or any other setting was official.
Clearly, at least in the beginning, the Forgotten Realms was the official setting, but perhaps Jeff Grubb was the main (or perhaps even the sole) advocate of that, and with his departure, TSR abandoned the stance. |
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
(DM of the Realms since 1987) |
Edited by - digitalelf on 04 Oct 2019 02:21:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2019 : 03:42:54
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I think you may be misunderstanding what they meant by "TSR's official AD&D 2nd Edition world"...
It's not that the Realms was the ONE setting of 2E, or that everything that was published was meant for the Realms. What it meant was that the Realms was the flagship setting, the foremost setting among MANY settings, and that they wanted the Realms to be able to host anything that wasn't specifically tied to another setting. If an adventure or a supplement wasn't tied to any specific setting, then it *could* be used in the Realms.
So it wasn't that "everything 2E is the Realms!" as it was "if it's a 2E thing, you can use it in the Realms." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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digitalelf
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2019 : 08:10:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think you may be misunderstanding what they meant by "TSR's official AD&D 2nd Edition world"...
So it wasn't that "everything 2E is the Realms!" as it was "if it's a 2E thing, you can use it in the Realms."
I'm not confusing "official" with "everything not otherwise nailed down goes there!"
Official is just another way of saying authorized or authoritative. I think that official was TSR's way (at least in Jeff Grubb's mind) of saying that The Forgotten Realms and AD&D 2nd Edition were synonymous. That if one thinks of 2nd edition AD&D, their thoughts default upon the Forgotten Realms. That doesn't mean that anything generic is automatically assumed to be set in FR, it just means that TSR through Jeff Grubb wanted players to make that connection, make that association.
And if that was the case, then I can see why TSR no longer used the phrase "official" in terms of setting after Jeff Grubb left in 1994. There were just too many setting to make such an assumption.
In different places and at different times Jeff Grubb described FR as simply "A" campaign setting for 1st edition AD&D. But on several occasions and in several places he said that FR was "THE" home of 2nd edition AD&D.
Note the difference:
1st edition - FR is "A" campaign setting for AD&D.
2nd edition - FR is "THE" home of AD&D 2nd edition.
Language means something. If the term "official" was used again and again, and then after 4 years, it stopped being used...
There's something to be said there.
But it's all moot at this point anyway. I don't need the Forgotten Realms to be the official setting for 2nd edition to enjoy the setting or the edition.
I asked the question because on another forum, it was said that the Forgotten Realms were only official to 5th edition and no other editions prior. I read that and thought to myself: "Now that's not true. I recall reading somewhere that... Blah blah blah."
Have I proven that FR was the official setting of 2nd edition? I think so, at least to myself. But like I said, it's of no import now, simply a footnote of history.  |
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
(DM of the Realms since 1987) |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 07:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by digitalelf
2nd edition - FR is "THE" home of AD&D 2nd edition.
Except that's not in your quote.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 16:11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Notice that the Underdark was initially set on/under Oerth - and apparently can still connect to it, somehow - but it became decisively set on/under Toril instead.
I think the explanation there is that there's more than one Underdark; there's the Greyhawk Underdark where Erelhei-Cinlu is located (specifically beneath the Crystalmist Mountains), and there's the Forgotten Realms Underdark where Menzoberranzan et al are located.
The Nentir Vale also appears to have its own take on the Underdark.
And while it's not an official part of the D&D multiverse, Pathfinder has the Darklands. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 19:38:34
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| Being the "official" setting of an edition means is it serves the function of being the default setting, the other settings are still official settings in the sense that they are aknowledged as existing. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 19:43:57
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| Nentir Vale/Nerith was the official setting for 4e, Greyhawk was the official setting for 3e, I guess FR is the official setting for 2e and 5e, Mystara was the official Setting for Basic D&D, and Greyhawk was the official setting for I guess original D&D. For 6e maybe it will be Eberron's turn or Ravnica's turn as the official D&D setting. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2019 : 21:47:46
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2E didn't have a single official setting. There was core material that was generic and a host of supported settings. The Realms was intended to be a place where anything 2E could be used, but it wasn't the default setting for every single thing.
We're conflating official setting and default setting, here. In 2E, the Realms was an official setting -- there was no default setting (though some Greyhawk references were in core material). Later editions had default settings. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Dec 2019 22:01:52 |
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Official Setting of 2nd Edition AD&D
