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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Sep 2019 : 05:54:51
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So, simple question: when do people think Maalthiir overthrew the incumbent council and took over Hillsfar?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2019 : 09:18:07
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The first time? I would say sometime in the early 1350s; the Wiki says 1356 but I think that's too late. When you go to Hillsfar in the video game after Pool of Radiance (the novel is 1340s era) he's already firmly in power. So after 1344 (the elven retreat) and before 1356...let's go with 1350ish?
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2019 : 11:46:24
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The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (1e): Cyclopedia of the Realms, page 51, states "The Council was overthrown last winter, and the city is now governed by Maalthiir." Since that box is presumed to start at the beginning of 1358 DR, that would suggest early 1357 DR or late 1356 DR.
Also of note are the entries for Borustine and Gunthor.
Mysteries of the Moonsea goes with a slightly later date. MoM, page 5, dates that book as the latter half of 1373 DR. MoM, page 47, dates the overthrow to 15 years earlier, so 1373 - 15 = 1358 DR.
I'd assume that MoM is a rounding error and that the coup started in the waning days of 1356 DR and was complete a few days into 1357 DR.
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2019 : 17:26:18
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Yes, I've had a chat with Eric and after dealing with an outlier 1354 DR reference, have agreed that Maalthiir took over Hillsfar in the winter that spanned 1356-1357 DR.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2019 : 18:36:32
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From my conversation with George, he pointed out that the Moonsea, (2e), page 5, set in 1367 DR, says "10 years ago".
He also pointed out that the FR Campaign Setting (2e), page 66, set in 1367 DR, says "10 winters back".
He also pointed out that Grand History of the Realms, page 140, says:
1354 DR: "Maalthiir becomes the ruler of Hillsfar."
And page 141 says:
1357 DR: Maalthiir overthrows the Council of Hillsfar and assumes control of the city.
The best way to reconcile all this (I think) is to say:
1354 DR: Maalthiir is elected leader of the Council of Hillsfar.
Nightal, 1356 DR: Maalthiir begins his coup against the Council of Hillsfar.
Hammer, 1357 DR: Maalthiir compltes his coup against the Council of Hillsfar.
--Eric
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2019 : 21:31:20
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| This thread gives me feels. I love the 1350s and OGB era. |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2019 : 01:52:17
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
From my conversation with George, he pointed out that the Moonsea, (2e), page 5, set in 1367 DR, says "10 years ago".
He also pointed out that the FR Campaign Setting (2e), page 66, set in 1367 DR, says "10 winters back".
He also pointed out that Grand History of the Realms, page 140, says:
1354 DR: "Maalthiir becomes the ruler of Hillsfar."
And page 141 says:
1357 DR: Maalthiir overthrows the Council of Hillsfar and assumes control of the city.
The best way to reconcile all this (I think) is to say:
1354 DR: Maalthiir is elected leader of the Council of Hillsfar.
Nightal, 1356 DR: Maalthiir begins his coup against the Council of Hillsfar.
Hammer, 1357 DR: Maalthiir compltes his coup against the Council of Hillsfar.
--Eric
A self-coup. That makes perfect sense to me. |
Ewan Cummins |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2019 : 20:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
From my conversation with George, he pointed out that the Moonsea, (2e), page 5, set in 1367 DR, says "10 years ago".
He also pointed out that the FR Campaign Setting (2e), page 66, set in 1367 DR, says "10 winters back".
He also pointed out that Grand History of the Realms, page 140, says:
1354 DR: "Maalthiir becomes the ruler of Hillsfar."
And page 141 says:
1357 DR: Maalthiir overthrows the Council of Hillsfar and assumes control of the city.
The best way to reconcile all this (I think) is to say:
1354 DR: Maalthiir is elected leader of the Council of Hillsfar.
Nightal, 1356 DR: Maalthiir begins his coup against the Council of Hillsfar.
Hammer, 1357 DR: Maalthiir compltes his coup against the Council of Hillsfar.
--Eric
I have come to exactly the same conclusion as you some time ago.
I will add that he was a member of Council even before his election known as merchant mage. He had a friend in wizard Wak Rathar, used his apprentice Mordak and also a High Warden Hardil Gearas who lead the city once Maalthiir fled in 1374 (he capitulated to Fzoul). As most of the council was pro-elven most of them got probably killed or "disappeared" during the years. I think Hardil might be one of the last former councelors as he is a human. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 02:05:28
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| Is there any lore given as to why Maalthir was no anti-elven/demihuman? Or was he simply a human supremacist? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 02:50:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Is there any lore given as to why Maalthir was no anti-elven/demihuman? Or was he simply a human supremacist?
It may be fairly common for the Mooneyes on the South Coast (even in Voonlar). They are caught between the elves and goblinoids, after all. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2019 : 16:52:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Is there any lore given as to why Maalthir was no anti-elven/demihuman? Or was he simply a human supremacist?
Hillsfar was ruled by council of elves, half-elves, dwarves and humans before Maalthir took power. He needed a reason to get rid of them so race bias seems like a good start. Most of the merchants in the city was humans so he would have their support and his main aim was to cut influence of Cormanthor on the city.
Main source of rasism in the city after the coup were Red Plumes so he might just used those racist mercenaries for his agenda. It is therefore possible that Maalthir himself might be ambivalent to the race and focuses on power.
What I do not understand on Hillsfar is that docks are separated from the city and all the merchants are on the hill so there is no need for any traveling merchant to visit the city as it also means climbing the road with your wagon. Dock fee should be pretty high as that would be all they see from most visitors. Who would want to risk death in arena if there is plenty other markets he can sell to next doors...
In my realms first thing Zhentarim did after capturing the city was building a small town around docks where commerce could thrive. At first it also housed their army but later grew naturally into dock district outside of the gates. |
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Hillsfar
