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MTBlack
Acolyte
40 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Aug 2019 : 11:03:36
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I'm trying to understand what has happened in Calimshan after the Second Era of Skyfire. According to the 4e Campaign Guide (circa 1479), the elemental lords Calim and Memnon were expelled from the Realms, however:
"Their lieutenants and foot soldiers remain in Calimshan, and continue
a bloody war based on little more than opposing philosophies... The headquarters of the warring genasi factions are the cities of Memnon and Calimport. The human population of both cities
serves as slaves and as fodder in the constant battles.
Only the city of Almraiven, still rich in magic and well
defended, remains under human control."
In Sword Coast Adventurers Guide (circa 1490):
"After years of struggling beneath their genasi masters, human slaves arose to follow a Chosen of Ilmater, at first using nonviolent resistance, and then erupting in full rebellion following his disappearance. They overthrew the genie lords of Calimport and Memnon, casting the remaining genies out of the cities and back to their elemental homes or into the depths of the deserts.
Much of Calimshan is a chaotic place dominated by wealth, political influence, and personal power. Many pray for the return of the Chosen and the completion of his work. Others are learning to live together without genie masters, and to grudgingly accept the remaining genasi among them."
Do we have any more details about this chosen of Ilmater and the human revolt? Is it mentioned in the novels anywhere? Any other possible sources of information?
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2019 : 01:35:13
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| Dead in Thay (the module) includes one of the chosen of Ilmater, Kieren, who is captured by the Red Wizards. It's unclear if this is the same dude, but perhaps not as that module seems to suggest there were many chosen of the gods and not just one per god (as was perhaps the case prior to 4E with the notable exception of Mystra). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2019 : 02:10:08
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The Sundering novels had so dang many Chosen that the Shades were rounding them up and putting them in *multiple* prison camps.
The Chosen were very weak, though -- as evidenced by the fact that large numbers of them were imprisoned together and couldn't do a thing about it. Most of the so-called Chosen just had one minor, possibly useless ability -- like one that left a trail of flowers wherever they walked.
If there was an explanation for why the deities began mass-producing nearly useless Chosen, I missed it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2019 : 15:56:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Sundering novels had so dang many Chosen that the Shades were rounding them up and putting them in *multiple* prison camps.
The Chosen were very weak, though -- as evidenced by the fact that large numbers of them were imprisoned together and couldn't do a thing about it. Most of the so-called Chosen just had one minor, possibly useless ability -- like one that left a trail of flowers wherever they walked.
If there was an explanation for why the deities began mass-producing nearly useless Chosen, I missed it.
Perhaps the deities who were "returning" essentially were having to "ride" in a mortal host (without subsuming them entirely) as a decree of Ao…. so similar to the avatar versions during the ToT, but even less powerful. When Ao did this, perhaps he forced all existing deities to do the same thing (maybe a messup by him, a requirement of the ritual to bring all these deities back to life, or some other thing). This would somewhat fit with the actions we see with Dumuzi to a degree in the novels in Unther/Tymanther. Maybe those who didn't have ANY lesser avatar survive by the end weren't allowed to come back at all. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2019 : 12:46:01
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I could imagine, that deities can't just pop out choosen with godlike powers as they like. Because if they could we would have armies of choosen with superpowers fighting each other. There have to be some rules to it we don't know. So we have a few choosen with really strong powers.
On the other hand gods plan for the long run and have uncountable plots running to further their goals. For this they create weaker choosen that just get this or that minor power which might seem useless but will be helpfull a very specific situation the god is planning for.
Also keep in mind that many of those imprisoned choosen where just developing their powers or where choosen but no powers had developed yet. Still each of them had a tiny little bit of the god that chose them inside. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2019 : 23:13:24
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
I could imagine, that deities can't just pop out choosen with godlike powers as they like. Because if they could we would have armies of choosen with superpowers fighting each other. There have to be some rules to it we don't know. So we have a few choosen with really strong powers.
On the other hand gods plan for the long run and have uncountable plots running to further their goals. For this they create weaker choosen that just get this or that minor power which might seem useless but will be helpfull a very specific situation the god is planning for.
Also keep in mind that many of those imprisoned choosen where just developing their powers or where choosen but no powers had developed yet. Still each of them had a tiny little bit of the god that chose them inside.
Well, yeah, but we went from maybe two score Chosen of all deities in the entire setting, ranging in power from "hey that's a nifty ability" to "practically a demipower" -- and then, after this was a problem in the eyes of the setting writers, then there are literally hundreds of Chosen.
And apparently the Shades had some Detect Chosen spell with an insane range that they could use to round them up.
And as with so much else, there was no explanation for why there were suddenly all these Chosen, or why the Shades were rounding them up, or why they were apparently unconcerned about them getting more powerful, or what happened to them after the Sundering was over and done with.
It was, as with so much else that WotC has done, a plot thread that just came out of nowhere and disappeared back into nowhere just as quickly. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2019 : 23:55:15
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AFAIK, the gods wanted to get enough power to be as high as possible in divine rankings in Ao's new Tablets of Fate. For this, they needed a lot of faithful. That's why they mass-produced Chosen with cheap abilities. They only wanted to impress mortals not to have a super army. That's why, when Asmodeus wanted to use a lot of Chosen to get his own divine spark, he found that no matter how many Chosen the Netherese could get, their divine powers weren't enough to elevate him to demigod. And that's also why all these Chosen lost their powers once the Second Sundering came to an end.
There where a few notable Chosen with formidable abilities during this time (usually, the novels' protagonists), but they were Chosen for other more specific purposes, and were different than the mass-produced ones. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Aug 2019 23:56:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2019 : 03:44:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
AFAIK, the gods wanted to get enough power to be as high as possible in divine rankings in Ao's new Tablets of Fate. For this, they needed a lot of faithful. That's why they mass-produced Chosen with cheap abilities. They only wanted to impress mortals not to have a super army. That's why, when Asmodeus wanted to use a lot of Chosen to get his own divine spark, he found that no matter how many Chosen the Netherese could get, their divine powers weren't enough to elevate him to demigod. And that's also why all these Chosen lost their powers once the Second Sundering came to an end.
There where a few notable Chosen with formidable abilities during this time (usually, the novels' protagonists), but they were Chosen for other more specific purposes, and were different than the mass-produced ones.
I dunno -- most of those Chosen were far from impressive. Especially in a place like the Realms, where even a journeyman mage can do more impressive things.
It's like a stage magician pulling rabbits out of a hat -- outside of a David Copperfield show. |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2019 : 15:35:13
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| I could have sworn I long ago read something about the "True Chosen" Each holding a Ranks worth of the God's power, one of the reasons Mystra had so many was that She HAD to, otherwise Her power would have broken the rules set out by AO. This was why most Gods were wary of making Chosen. I know LEoF has a bit of lore on it. |
Sam |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2020 : 21:20:27
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I might have the answer!
There was a lengthy LFR campaign about Calimshan, where the PCs aided the WeavePasha of Almraiven and a noble named Ala’ammar Asha (who I believe was a former slave) leading slave revolts and open fighting against Calimport and Memnon with the aid of the Janessar. Ala’ammar ends up sacrificing himself to strike a major blow and empower the PCs. It ends with both regimes severely struck and a huge number of slaves freed.
Ilmater never comes up, but retconning Ala’ammar to be a Chosen of his would be fitting, and wouldn’t alter things much at all. Until 5e canon says otherwise, I assume the events of that LFR campaign to be true, with the note that Ala’ammar was Chosen.
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 21:45:59
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Master Zeromaru X,
Do you have any sources for that? I'd love to take a look at that. Very interesting idea.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
AFAIK, the gods wanted to get enough power to be as high as possible in divine rankings in Ao's new Tablets of Fate. For this, they needed a lot of faithful. That's why they mass-produced Chosen with cheap abilities. They only wanted to impress mortals not to have a super army. That's why, when Asmodeus wanted to use a lot of Chosen to get his own divine spark, he found that no matter how many Chosen the Netherese could get, their divine powers weren't enough to elevate him to demigod. And that's also why all these Chosen lost their powers once the Second Sundering came to an end.
There where a few notable Chosen with formidable abilities during this time (usually, the novels' protagonists), but they were Chosen for other more specific purposes, and were different than the mass-produced ones.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Rakshak the Tall
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2022 : 17:30:15
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
There was a lengthy LFR campaign about Calimshan, where the PCs aided the WeavePasha of Almraiven and a noble named Ala’ammar Asha (who I believe was a former slave) leading slave revolts and open fighting against Calimport and Memnon with the aid of the Janessar. Ala’ammar ends up sacrificing himself to strike a major blow and empower the PCs. It ends with both regimes severely struck and a huge number of slaves freed.
I've read a lot of Calimshan material in trying to improve my immersion and roleplay (my PC is from Calimshan, but recently moved to Waterdeep). As far as I've been able to tell, this is the most likely answer.
For those looking for more details, here's a brief summary of the storyline:
In short, the campaign proceeds in four movements. I've added a brief summary in spoiler tags, in case anyone is interested in adapting these adventures for 5e.
CALI 3-1: Malice of Mintar, CALI 3-2: Menace of Memnon, CALI 3-3: Agony of Almraiven: a group of adventurers is tasked with retrieving an ancestral item, the Battlecloak of Vycaena for an Almraiven noble, Ala'Ammar.
CALI 4-1: Plain of Stone Spiders, CALI 4-2: Dragon Above, Desert Below, CALI 4-3: Twisted Rune: The group of adventurers is tasked by Ala'Ammar with retrieving the shards of the Calimemnon Crystal, as a failsafe to prevent Calim and Memnon from returning.
SPEC 4-3: Conflict in Calimport, SPEC 4-4: Mischief in Memnon: Ala'Ammar, sends the group of adventurers to carry "special ops" type missions, attacking Calimport (and framing Memnon), and attacking Memnon (framing Calimport), attempting to turn the cities of Memnon and Calimport against each other, so that Almraiven can gain the upper hand over both of them.
ADCP 4-2: The Lost City of Sudolphor: several groups of adventurers are included in a battle between the forces of Calimport, Memnon, and Almraiven (led by Ala'Ammar) over the fate of the lost city of Suldolphor.
QUES 4-1: Liberation: From Suldolphor, Ala'Ammar sends an adventuring party to liberate the slaves of Calimport, while he leads the forces of Almraiven to liberate Memnon. However, the battle for Memnon goes poorly, and Ala'Ammar ends up sacrificing himself to buy enough time to liberate the slaves of Memnon. The adventuring company is sent to finish Ala'Ammar's task.
This is a pretty good fit for the SCAG paragraphs, so I'd imagine the intention is that Ala'Ammar is the Chosen of Ilmater mentioned in the SCAG paragraphs. |
> I am in the garden <
> The garden is in the pool <
> The pool is in the box <
> The box is in my hand <
> And I am in the garden < |
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Rakshak the Tall
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2022 : 22:06:52
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Separate from the official material, I've imagined a few additional details.
Given the Janessar's long-time concern for helping formerly enslaved people escape (Empires of the Shining Sea, 83-84), I've assumed that the Janessar helped reinforce Almraiven's armies, and are now much more openly a political force to be reckoned with.
I also assume that the duchy of Ankaram, the duchy on Tethyr's southern border, maintained a strong anti-slavery stance. Given that Vajra Valmeyjar, escaped enslavement in Calimshan before becoming duchess of Ankaram in 1369 (see AD&D comics), this would mean that her anti-slavery stance was maintained for the next 120-ish years through the Second Era of Skyfire (assuming a current date of 1492, since I'm playing in a Dragon Heist campaign). I don't know near as much about Tethyr as Calimshan, so this is on less certain ground for me.
In any case, I assume that the Janessar assisted in forging a truce between Ankaram and the forces of Almraiven, allowing Almraiven's Northern Army to cross the Marching Mountains from St. Faelar's Cloister to Khanall, then proceed westward up the River Agis, sheltering at the Ankaram river forts, but capturing supplies by raiding Memnon-aligned estates along the Calimshan side of the river. I assume this is how the bulk of the Northern Army got to Memnon.
As for the Southern army, I don't have as well thought through of a theory or story (mostly because it doesn't concern my character, who in my imagination marched with the Northern army). If I were coming up with the story, I would imagine an arrangement between Almraiven and the residents of Ajhuutal, enabling capture of Calimport by sea. (Of course, the residents of Ajhuutal could be Merfolk and Sea Elves, as per Empire of the Shining Sea, or one might speculate that the Marid Ajhuu (Empires of the Shining Sea, p. 11) returned at the same time that Calim and Memnon did, then disappeared when they did, and began to restore Marid and water-genasi influence in the ruins of Ajhuutal...)
Depending on whether you hold that the Second Sundering restored the Forest of Mir, or whether it remained the Spires of Mir with Dao/earth-aligned Genasi from 4e lore, there may be another political relationship to clarify.
In terms of the current political situation in Calimshan, I have been imagining a period of post-revolutionary experimentation and uncertainty, drawing inspiration from the French First Republic (1792-1804), the Haitian Revolution and early post-revolutionary period(1791-1820), the Reconstruction period in the US South (1865-1877), the Partition and post-partition period in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh (1947-1951), and the period immediately after the Iranian revolution (1979). The mix of inspirations evokes, to me, both powerful potentials of a newly free society to create something new, but also the potential for retributive violence against genasi, and a vulnerability to infighting.
Again, though, these are just the speculations that inform my own gameplay. |
> I am in the garden <
> The garden is in the pool <
> The pool is in the box <
> The box is in my hand <
> And I am in the garden < |
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Calimshan in 5e
