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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Feb 2019 : 21:12:28
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So what do we have now? Fifty years worth of gaming material to work and play with? Over that time, how often has the planar cosmology changed in subtle, and thoroughly unsubtle ways?
I know I don't need to explain all of the changes away to anyone, but sometimes I feel like there needs to be an overarching metastory that links it all together and makes it all possible. I don't know what the current form of canon is, exactly, anymore because I feel like it's a bit more vague in 5e than it has been in the past. I want to be able to include everything that has ever existed and somehow reconcile it all. In effect, what I am about to bring up are just ideas, fragments of ideas and unresolved problems I would like to ask the community to help with.
Please note that I am aware this isn't canon, but could it be compatible with canon?
- The planar multiverse and cosmology is not the only planar multiverse and cosmology. Toril itself connects to many different cosmologies, but the main one is what we all have come to accept for 5e. There are cultures whose gods and myths connect to them and there are others that don't. There may be regions of the world that are fully disconnected to Faerun's primary cosmology and their dead may travel to very different planes upon death. Yet this is the Torillian crystal sphere and there are still some absolute truths (like Ao gets the final word on everything; Shar and Selune battled at the beginning of time, etc).
-There are other worlds in the multiverse in different crystal spheres that connect to their own cosmologies as well. Some connect to Faerun's cosmology as well, but not necessarily to every plane in the cosmology. Though it has been said to be different in the past, I don't accept that there are multiple Lolths and multiple demogorgons world by world - instead their histories are just different in different worlds and regions.
- There is connections between the planes and cosmologies but not the bizarre neighboring realms that were a mainstay in Planescape. It always drove me nuts that Thor could go next door to have tea (beer) with Torm. Likely, the connections are solely through planar gateways - not just a simple walking distance away.
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Edited by - Seethyr on 20 Feb 2019 21:15:30
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2019 : 21:39:55
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For what WotC have said in Twitter, and under the hashtag #wotcstaff (meaning, stating that their answers are official statements), there is only one cosmogony, that people interpret in different ways. Sone say that the cosmogony is a Great Wheel, others that is a World Tree, and others that is a World Axis (among many other models, those three are the most popular among scholars in the Realms in the 1490s), but the truth is that mortals cannot comprehend the true nature of the cosmos, and therefore cannot (and will not) map it correctly. That's why the Great Wheel got updated un 5e, because the sages had to remodel it to explain those new planes that appeared after the Spellplague.
They also said that there is only one material plane that contains all worlds within crystal spheres and that this material plane connects to the Planes, that are the same for all worlds, just with different names depending on the world and the cosmological model that world's sages use, etc.
This combo of material plane + the Planes is what they call "the multiverse".
So, it depends, I guess? You can say that the different cosmologies are just different regions of the Planes, that have different rules than the other regions. Is how they officially reconciled Eberron's unique cosmology with the Great Wheel when that setting got officiallyzed for Adventurer's League. Guess is what they gonna say when they officiallyze other settings with unique cosmologies, such as Dark Sun, Dragonlance or Nentir Vale.
As for the gods, your stance is what they officially use. They still have Thor and Torm having beer together, however. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Feb 2019 21:45:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2019 : 22:11:23
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My spin: The Great Wheel is the true cosmology.
Note that there are planes that are part of this cosmology, but they are not directly connected to the Wheel. The reason is because all the Wheel itself -- the Outlands -- is just a hub. Just because something isn't linked directly to the hub, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The Great Tree is just another way of looking at the Wheel; the planes of the Tree are domains or regions on the planes of the Wheel.
That's my spin. I've not looked at what 5E does to the cosmology.
Also, for me, there is one Prime Material Plane -- but like a lot of other planes, it has multiple layers. Each campaign setting is its own layer of the Prime.
This allows for the fact that before 3E, all the campaign worlds were linked by Planescape. So if all the worlds are the Prime and are connected to the same set of planes, then doing the layers approach explains why you can't simply walk from Toril to Krynn, and why each Prime can have different rules or planar connections.
The alternatives are one Prime, or multiple Primes.
If you go with one Prime, you have to explain how physics and planar connections can change from place to place on one plane, and how you have non-contiguous sections of that plane.
If you go with multiple Primes, then you've got a potentially infinite number of duplicates of one plane -- that would be like having infinite duplicates of Limbo or Baator.
Rather than explain why one plane and one plane only is entirely different from all the rest, it's easier to assume the existing planar structure applies to the Prime: one plane, but a lot of layers. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2019 : 22:23:22
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But before 3e you could walk from Toril to Krynn. Or well, navigate. That's what Spelljammer is all about, physically traveling through the material world.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's my spin. I've not looked at what 5E does to the cosmology.
They added the best of planes from the World Axis (4e cosmology) to the Great Wheel, alongside their 4e lore. That's why I said they "updated" the Great Wheel. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Feb 2019 22:28:12 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 00:51:10
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| so, I guess this explains how the cosmology has changed and looks different to different cultures and worlds (as best it can), but a lot of it still bothers me. It raises so many questions for me that just wreak havoc on the mathematical portion of my brain. I mean, there have been so many cosmos shaking events (CSEs?) in justour own little neck of the Prime. Multiply that by infinite worlds and you have to have a disaster come to fruition at some point? Faerun/Oerth/Keynote/Eberron has been responsible for the death of demon lords and slaad lords etc. That affects everyone everywhere and nothing they seem to do affects our neck of the woods? I really wish they had made it separate. I mean, there has to be entire lizard man worlds out there (i.e.), why wouldn’t they have a cosmos that looked like a great swamp with their primary demonic beings with versions of good and evil that we can’t comprehend? Do they have as great a pantheon as we do and if so, how come every time a traveler goes to tree planes they encounter the same 100 or so common ones? Wouldn’t planar hubs like the City of Brass and Sigil be absurdly varied, not just the slightly differing anthropomorphic beings we know so well? To me, it makes the multiverse seem so small. I’m not raging here - it just seems like there could easily have been a universe with greater variety with just a word. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 00:53:03
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| Oh and Wooly, I like the idea of a many layered Prime plane - but in a way I think we already have it. The layers of a plane aren’t always just flat on top of each other and I think the crystal spheres could easily be considered different layers that you can (with great difficulty) travel to. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 01:22:18
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Well, is the official stance. And while it works so well for 5e's, is not that good when you begin to compare it with the lore of earlier editions (it's totally incompatible with 4e's, for instance -- 4e didn't had that problem with 3.x or Planescape).
And while I love syncretism, I want a syncretism that makes sense. 5e's one doesn't. Not ranting, anyways. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 01:40:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But before 3e you could walk from Toril to Krynn. Or well, navigate. That's what Spelljammer is all about, physically traveling through the material world.
Ah, but spelljamming between spheres is a kind of planar travel -- when you leave a crystal sphere and enter the Flow, you're cut off from all planes, even extradimensional spaces. The Flow is like a place between planes -- it's the D&D version of hyperspace. The Flow is, therefore, not the Prime Material Plane.
So as soon as you exit Realmspace, you're not on the Prime Material Plane. When you enter another Krynnspace (or any other sphere), you leave the Flow and thus re-enter the Prime.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 02:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
For what WotC have said in Twitter, and under the hashtag #wotcstaff (meaning, stating that their answers are official statements), there is only one cosmogony, that people interpret in different ways. Sone say that the cosmogony is a Great Wheel, others that is a World Tree, and others that is a World Axis (among many other models, those three are the most popular among scholars in the Realms in the 1490s), but the truth is that mortals cannot comprehend the true nature of the cosmos, and therefore cannot (and will not) map it correctly. That's why the Great Wheel got updated un 5e, because the sages had to remodel it to explain those new planes that appeared after the Spellplague.
They also said that there is only one material plane that contains all worlds within crystal spheres and that this material plane connects to the Planes, that are the same for all worlds, just with different names depending on the world and the cosmological model that world's sages use, etc.
This combo of material plane + the Planes is what they call "the multiverse".
So, it depends, I guess? You can say that the different cosmologies are just different regions of the Planes, that have different rules than the other regions. Is how they officially reconciled Eberron's unique cosmology with the Great Wheel when that setting got officiallyzed for Adventurer's League. Guess is what they gonna say when they officiallyze other settings with unique cosmologies, such as Dark Sun, Dragonlance or Nentir Vale.
As for the gods, your stance is what they officially use. They still have Thor and Torm having beer together, however.
The thing I don't like about the "different explanations" theory, is that you can only go so far, before it gets ridiculous. When you can actually travel to those places, and when people have done that for tens of thousands of years, and even had ample chances of pooling and confronting their findings, then knowledge of the planes ought to be more precise. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 02:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ah, but spelljamming between spheres is a kind of planar travel -- when you leave a crystal sphere and enter the Flow, you're cut off from all planes, even extradimensional spaces. The Flow is like a place between planes -- it's the D&D version of hyperspace. The Flow is, therefore, not the Prime Material Plane.
So as soon as you exit Realmspace, you're not on the Prime Material Plane. When you enter another Krynnspace (or any other sphere), you leave the Flow and thus re-enter the Prime.
I don't agree; just because you're cut off from the planes doesn't mean you're on another plane. Besides, magic that can breach shells can't be used to travel to other planes, and the canonical Spelljammer material says it's still the Prime Material Plane. Besides, if it isn't the Prime, it means the Prime isn't infinite.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The thing I don't like about the "different explanations" theory, is that you can only go so far, before it gets ridiculous. When you can actually travel to those places, and when people have done that for tens of thousands of years, and even had ample chances of pooling and confronting their findings, then knowledge of the planes ought to be more precise.
Especially considering there are immortal and near-immortal creatures that live out there. They may not have perfect knowledge of the planes, but they'd certainly have a pretty good idea of what it's like. Just as people in the middle ages with an understanding of the world's shape (scholars, sailors, etc.) didn't think it was flat, residents of the outer planes should know if the planes are positioned like a wheel, or a tree.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 03:09:30
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The planes aren't connected to each other like the Prime is though. You don't just travel in one direction and end up in another plane like you end up in another nation on the prime. Infinities laid atop infinities can't look that way - so I think layout becomes irrelevant and frankly open to interpretation. Where some see a Great Tree, others see a Great Wheel. It could be a Great Pyramid (how the Mazticans see their cosmology) or even a Great Ship. The connections are metaphysical rather than physical so human minds [edit: sentient minds] must've interpreted them, even after many visits, in ways influenced by their cultural identity.
I'm more concerned with the connectivity and interaction between these planes. If one of Eberron's hells (I don't know Eberron to name them...is it Xoriat?) exists IN Oerth's hell and Toril's hell, the interactions would create one giant mush of war, alliance, etc. I feel like it ruins each individual story by creating one overarching story that is too crowded. This is one reason why I wouldv'e preferred seperate cosmologies. As a caveat, for cool OCCASIONAL adventure themes in the planes, it would be fun to see crossover (like DC vs Marvel), but only through a planar breach or remarkably rare portal.
Boy does this conversation have me itching for a Planescape update though...Wow! |
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Edited by - Seethyr on 21 Feb 2019 03:12:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 03:40:47
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ah, but spelljamming between spheres is a kind of planar travel -- when you leave a crystal sphere and enter the Flow, you're cut off from all planes, even extradimensional spaces. The Flow is like a place between planes -- it's the D&D version of hyperspace. The Flow is, therefore, not the Prime Material Plane.
So as soon as you exit Realmspace, you're not on the Prime Material Plane. When you enter another Krynnspace (or any other sphere), you leave the Flow and thus re-enter the Prime.
I don't agree; just because you're cut off from the planes doesn't mean you're on another plane. Besides, magic that can breach shells can't be used to travel to other planes, and the canonical Spelljammer material says it's still the Prime Material Plane. Besides, if it isn't the Prime, it means the Prime isn't infinite.
I don't know where you got me saying the Flow was another plane, when I explicitly stated it's a place between planes. Either way, it's not the Prime, and I don't know of anything in Spelljammer material that says otherwise.
The area inside the spheres is the Prime, though. And with an infinite number of layers/spheres, the Prime is thereby infinite.
Otherwise, as I said, you've got to explain why one and only one plane is non-contiguous and why different areas of it have different rules. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 03:49:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
The planes aren't connected to each other like the Prime is though. You don't just travel in one direction and end up in another plane like you end up in another nation on the prime. Infinities laid atop infinities can't look that way - so I think layout becomes irrelevant and frankly open to interpretation. Where some see a Great Tree, others see a Great Wheel. It could be a Great Pyramid (how the Mazticans see their cosmology) or even a Great Ship. The connections are metaphysical rather than physical so human minds [edit: sentient minds] must've interpreted them, even after many visits, in ways influenced by their cultural identity.
If the layout was the only thing that changed, then it'd be more reasonable, because there are many ways to represent connections. The thing is, it isn't just the layout to change, it's that one day there are certain planes, and the day after they're gone and replaced by other stuff. That's not a matter of interpretation, that's a matter of things being changed.
Plus, as other said, you have beings with minds far above human levels (or even humanoid creatures who have somehow boosted their minds to such levels) studying and knowing this stuff, eve directly observing it. The knowledge out there ought to be more precise indeed, having such wildly different models and calling them equally valid alternative interpretations is just applying a heavy does of handwavium. If things are real, and can be observed, then you at leastt need to know which planes exist at a certain time, and the main connections between them. How you represent that is a matter of preference, but which places actually exist and the connections that I mentioned above shouldn't be up in the air. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Feb 2019 03:53:42 |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 20:01:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My spin: The Great Wheel is the true cosmology.
Note that there are planes that are part of this cosmology, but they are not directly connected to the Wheel. The reason is because all the Wheel itself -- the Outlands -- is just a hub. Just because something isn't linked directly to the hub, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The Great Tree is just another way of looking at the Wheel; the planes of the Tree are domains or regions on the planes of the Wheel.
That's my spin. I've not looked at what 5E does to the cosmology.
Also, for me, there is one Prime Material Plane -- but like a lot of other planes, it has multiple layers. Each campaign setting is its own layer of the Prime.
This allows for the fact that before 3E, all the campaign worlds were linked by Planescape. So if all the worlds are the Prime and are connected to the same set of planes, then doing the layers approach explains why you can't simply walk from Toril to Krynn, and why each Prime can have different rules or planar connections.
The alternatives are one Prime, or multiple Primes.
If you go with one Prime, you have to explain how physics and planar connections can change from place to place on one plane, and how you have non-contiguous sections of that plane.
If you go with multiple Primes, then you've got a potentially infinite number of duplicates of one plane -- that would be like having infinite duplicates of Limbo or Baator.
Rather than explain why one plane and one plane only is entirely different from all the rest, it's easier to assume the existing planar structure applies to the Prime: one plane, but a lot of layers.
Wooly does this differ greatly from the old 2E Planescape canon? I have never played in or run Planescape only browsed lore but seems similar.
Oddly enough this thread pops up as I've been thinking on just the same topic. At some point in the near future I would like to run a planar campaign, likely to include spelljamming as well. Even though I'm perfectly happy to leave the multiverse UNKNOWN to my players, and even use the "no one REALLY knows how it works" as a DM trump card, I as a DM would like to know the rules behind the scenes. This also brings death and souls into the picture that I really want to flesh out in my multiverse, all topics previously discussed in older scrolls.
Really planes are just links they don't specifically exist anywhere, these links are created and destroyed over time. People just like to force structure onto those links so it is easier to visualize. Wheel, tree, staircase, etc. Personally it feels like many quests overlook the danger and complexity of planar travel. At least from what I read many established portal networks are coveted, guarded or kept secret. Spells like Plane Shift require attuned forks to take you to the plane you want. Traveling via the Deep Ethereal/Shadow dangerous and one can easily end up lost. Spelljamming might be one of the safer more reliable ways to travel, though expensive.
As far as what sort of cosmic shaking events could explain restructuring things? My favorite is Vecna entering Sigil creating some sort of cosmic paradox, sending waves of restructuring through out the multiverse, backward and forward in time. I'm pretty sure Spellplague was supposed to touch the planes but that never felt right to me. There are the cross-planar empires like the Mindflayers and Spellweavers attempted to bring about major changes and ended up falling. The Mindflayers especially are interesting because they have time travel and as far as I can tell are trapped in a loop. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2019 : 00:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know where you got me saying the Flow was another plane, when I explicitly stated it's a place between planes. Either way, it's not the Prime, and I don't know of anything in Spelljammer material that says otherwise.
The area inside the spheres is the Prime, though. And with an infinite number of layers/spheres, the Prime is thereby infinite.
Otherwise, as I said, you've got to explain why one and only one plane is non-contiguous and why different areas of it have different rules.
The Spelljammer material calls Wildspace and the Phlogiston two different types of space; it doesn't give any indication that other than having different properties they're different planes (or "in between," which isn't really a thing in 2e). Calling the Prime not contiguous is only true if the Phlogiston isn't part of the Prime. If it IS part of the Prime, then the Prime is completely contiguous.
I would analogize the difference between the Flow and Wildspace as the difference between moving through air and water. In each medium, properties and a traveler's ability to do things are substantially different.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2019 : 01:58:08
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| AFAIK, in 5e the phlogiston is part of the Prime Material. Or that is what Jeremy Crawford said once. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2019 : 03:21:09
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know where you got me saying the Flow was another plane, when I explicitly stated it's a place between planes. Either way, it's not the Prime, and I don't know of anything in Spelljammer material that says otherwise.
The area inside the spheres is the Prime, though. And with an infinite number of layers/spheres, the Prime is thereby infinite.
Otherwise, as I said, you've got to explain why one and only one plane is non-contiguous and why different areas of it have different rules.
The Spelljammer material calls Wildspace and the Phlogiston two different types of space; it doesn't give any indication that other than having different properties they're different planes (or "in between," which isn't really a thing in 2e). Calling the Prime not contiguous is only true if the Phlogiston isn't part of the Prime. If it IS part of the Prime, then the Prime is completely contiguous.
I would analogize the difference between the Flow and Wildspace as the difference between moving through air and water. In each medium, properties and a traveler's ability to do things are substantially different.
Jeff
It's a lot more profound than the difference between air and water. The Flow is entirely cut off from all planes, even magically-created ones. The gods can't even reach into the Flow... And the phlogiston canonically cannot exist within wildspace. That by itself is a strong indication that the Flow is not the Prime, or any other plane of existence.
Also, local deities only have power within their spheres. Their influence doesn't extend even a fraction of an inch past their sphere.
So we have (literally!) hard barriers for differing laws of physics, we have hard barriers for divine influence, and we have hard barriers for where other planes can be accessed.
Quite frankly, given all that, I don't see how it could be argued that there is just one contiguous Prime. The only question is if it's one multilayered Prime, which matches what is already known to exist in Planescape, or if it's multiple Primes.
One multilayered Prime is the simplest and most elegant approach. |
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Reconciling the Planar Metastory
