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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2019 :  04:16:05  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I love 5e, but my biggest disappointment was the lack of a 5e update to the Binder. Imho, the class was one of the best additions to the game that came out of 3.5. They were brilliant lorewise, admittedly challenging mechanics wise - but fixable and playable if your players are mature enough to not be insane min/maxers. I’ve always thought about taking the colossal undertaking of updating the class to 5e, but recently found it’s already been done, and done well!

http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/06/book-of-binding.html?m=1

To make it more realmsy specifically, could you think of any beings from Realmsian history that might make good vestiges? Possibly ones to replace the existing ones in names and lore, but not mechanics?

Do binders have a history in the Realms at all?

Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!

The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign

Edited by - Seethyr on 20 Feb 2019 04:17:15

TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
971 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2019 :  14:03:21  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IIRC, there were a few Realms-specific entities in the binder class right up, not to mention the Karsus offspring race. Aside from that, There may have been a binder or two that appeared in one of the late 3.5E adventures, but I'm not sure.
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2019 :  14:19:49  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

IIRC, there were a few Realms-specific entities in the binder class right up, not to mention the Karsus offspring race. Aside from that, There may have been a binder or two that appeared in one of the late 3.5E adventures, but I'm not sure.



Ah yes, Karse is one of the vestiges and I remember the Karsites (though, I don’t remember them being a particularly distinguishable race). I don’t remember the adventure though but I really hope to find it. The Savage Tide adventure path from waning days of Dungeon Magazine features no them pretty heavily (including some heavy usage of the Teeth of Dahlver Nahl and some explanation of the Void), but that takes some adaptation to put into the Realms.

Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!

The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2019 :  01:43:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I created a "variant" of warlock for 5e that was meant to represent the binder concept, while allowing the player themselves to "define" what their vestige was like. Its in my complete red book of spell strategy on DM's guild and I call it the Occultist binder. I won't say its extremely thought out, but it gives the idea of the flexibility of the binder without making you have to have a huge rulebook listing a bunch of vestiges. The player and DM can "define" what they're picturing the character binding, and the spirit that you bind isn't confined to only be useful in a certain level range. For instance, you could say that you're binding Karsus, and just as you level up, yu learn how to "draw more power" from the binding of Karsus. Whenever you're binding Karsus, you might say that "I'm picking this combo to represent Karsus" and then whenever you want to pick some other combination, maybe you just say that that combination represents some other spirit being bound. As you go up in level, you gain the ability to choose different abilities to use by "binding" different spirits. Also, binders might be able to bind other "spirits" than vestiges. Here's kind of the description I gave


The Occultist Binder
While the standard warlock binds themselves to a specific patron, some warlocks have learned to make shorter lasting pacts with what are known as Vestige Spirits. The exact nature of these spirits are unknown and hotly contested in some circles, but what is known is that they are not able to directly interact with the world, and thus they are not undead, elementals, or any kind of normal fiend that is composed of a material body. In return for allowing their spirits to be bound, and thus granting power to the warlock, the spirit vestige is able to experience the world through their host. There is however a darker side to sharing of souls, in that a spirit vestige may gain influence over the warlock and be able to directly affect how he reacts in certain situations. Furthermore, some spirits are safer than others to bind.
There are other kinds of Vestige Spirits as well. These are darker, vengeful, and sometimes mad spirits, and those who traffic with them are known as Occultist Binders. Unlike the powerful lords of fiends or the Great Old Ones of the Far Realm, these spirits generally have no agenda for their warlock servitor other than to be able to experience the world through their host. Occasionally though, the spirit gains influence over its host and can force him to act in ways that are counter to his normal character, and thus even amongst warlocks these practitioners are looked at askance. Of course, these Occultist binders also realize that if a spirit takes advantage of them, they can also choose to seek the aid of a different spirit the next time to punish the transgressor. This threat is what makes most Vestige Spirits temper their acts of rebellion so as not to put their host in direct harm.
These darker Vestige Spirits tend to have once been mortal beings whose acts have somehow harmed their spirit, entrapping them in some form of nether space wherein they are unable to gain peace. Some can only be called upon from specific places tied to their mortal lives in some way. They are too numerous to list them all, but some commonly known ones actually originated within Toril (such as Karsus, the Weave Destroyer; Thayd, Defier of the God-Kings; Zhengyi the Witch-King of Vaasa; Tisan Balshareska, the last Geomancer; Shax, Kin-slain of Annam; Zagan, Serpent God that Never Was). However, they are by no means limited by their planes of origin, and thus knowledge of the pact seals of others are not overly hard to discover when researching Vestige lore, such as Amon, the void before the altar; Andromalius, the repentant rogue; Balam, the Bitter Angel; Chupoclops, the Great Spider; Dahlver-Nar, the Tortured One; Eligor the Dragon's Slayer; Haagenti, Mother of Minotaurs; Haures, the Dreaming Duke; Ipos, Prince of Fools,;Leraje, the Green Herald; Marchosias, King of Killers; Orthos, Sovereign of the Howling Dark; Otiax, the key to the gate; Paimon, the dancer; and Tenebrous, the shadow that was.
The exact spirit(s) used by the character should be chosen between the DM and the player. The idea here is to have the character choosing a spirit whose story seems to meld with the character's own story. Also, you should not limit the character to using one spirit at a time if it makes for a good story. Many of the spirits listed above come from the 3.5 edition Tome of Magic, however where it had certain Vestiges being tied to certain levels, this version of the binder instead “grows” with the spirits that he binds and he is thus able to wrest more power from them over time. Also, the character may have different standard picks of abilities he may use, and its recommended that they pick a different spirit that they want to use for each “set” for roleplaying purposes. Feel free to even let a player design his own spirit's back story.
Binding Checks are also something that should be handled between the DM and the player. Should the Occultist Binder fail a binding check, the vestige spirit gains a small amount of control over the character. This should enforce some kind of roleplaying quirk on the character of the DM's design (you may want to develop a list of quirks and roll against them). Typical examples might be a need to uncontrollably use swear language, an unnatural hatred of priest characters, abnormal greediness or kleptomania, a fear of water or fire, or even cosmetic physical characteristic changes to the Occultist Binder's body to mirror the vestige spirit which infests their body (claws, fangs, hooves, horns, weird eyes, dead looking flesh, serpent's tongue, antennae, additional eyes and/or eyestalks, mandibles, etc...). It is recommended that you review the Tome of Magic or similar resources involving binders for ideas.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2019 :  20:30:10  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas




The Occultist Binder
While the standard warlock binds themselves to a specific patron, some warlocks have learned to make shorter lasting pacts with what are known as Vestige Spirits. The exact nature of these spirits are unknown and hotly contested in some circles, but what is known is that they are not able to directly interact with the world, and thus they are not undead, elementals, or any kind of normal fiend that is composed of a material body. In return for allowing their spirits to be bound, and thus granting power to the warlock, the spirit vestige is able to experience the world through their host. There is however a darker side to sharing of souls, in that a spirit vestige may gain influence over the warlock and be able to directly affect how he reacts in certain situations. Furthermore, some spirits are safer than others to bind.
There are other kinds of Vestige Spirits as well. These are darker, vengeful, and sometimes mad spirits, and those who traffic with them are known as Occultist Binders. Unlike the powerful lords of fiends or the Great Old Ones of the Far Realm, these spirits generally have no agenda for their warlock servitor other than to be able to experience the world through their host. Occasionally though, the spirit gains influence over its host and can force him to act in ways that are counter to his normal character, and thus even amongst warlocks these practitioners are looked at askance. Of course, these Occultist binders also realize that if a spirit takes advantage of them, they can also choose to seek the aid of a different spirit the next time to punish the transgressor. This threat is what makes most Vestige Spirits temper their acts of rebellion so as not to put their host in direct harm.
These darker Vestige Spirits tend to have once been mortal beings whose acts have somehow harmed their spirit, entrapping them in some form of nether space wherein they are unable to gain peace. Some can only be called upon from specific places tied to their mortal lives in some way. They are too numerous to list them all, but some commonly known ones actually originated within Toril (such as Karsus, the Weave Destroyer; Thayd, Defier of the God-Kings; Zhengyi the Witch-King of Vaasa; Tisan Balshareska, the last Geomancer; Shax, Kin-slain of Annam; Zagan, Serpent God that Never Was). However, they are by no means limited by their planes of origin, and thus knowledge of the pact seals of others are not overly hard to discover when researching Vestige lore, such as Amon, the void before the altar; Andromalius, the repentant rogue; Balam, the Bitter Angel; Chupoclops, the Great Spider; Dahlver-Nar, the Tortured One; Eligor the Dragon's Slayer; Haagenti, Mother of Minotaurs; Haures, the Dreaming Duke; Ipos, Prince of Fools,;Leraje, the Green Herald; Marchosias, King of Killers; Orthos, Sovereign of the Howling Dark; Otiax, the key to the gate; Paimon, the dancer; and Tenebrous, the shadow that was.
The exact spirit(s) used by the character should be chosen between the DM and the player. The idea here is to have the character choosing a spirit whose story seems to meld with the character's own story. Also, you should not limit the character to using one spirit at a time if it makes for a good story. Many of the spirits listed above come from the 3.5 edition Tome of Magic, however where it had certain Vestiges being tied to certain levels, this version of the binder instead “grows” with the spirits that he binds and he is thus able to wrest more power from them over time. Also, the character may have different standard picks of abilities he may use, and its recommended that they pick a different spirit that they want to use for each “set” for roleplaying purposes. Feel free to even let a player design his own spirit's back story.
Binding Checks are also something that should be handled between the DM and the player. Should the Occultist Binder fail a binding check, the vestige spirit gains a small amount of control over the character. This should enforce some kind of roleplaying quirk on the character of the DM's design (you may want to develop a list of quirks and roll against them). Typical examples might be a need to uncontrollably use swear language, an unnatural hatred of priest characters, abnormal greediness or kleptomania, a fear of water or fire, or even cosmetic physical characteristic changes to the Occultist Binder's body to mirror the vestige spirit which infests their body (claws, fangs, hooves, horns, weird eyes, dead looking flesh, serpent's tongue, antennae, additional eyes and/or eyestalks, mandibles, etc...). It is recommended that you review the Tome of Magic or similar resources involving binders for ideas.




That is really cool to think of them as pseudo warlocks. I see the connection. I even think both classes could exist simultaneously - the occultist warlock (I was thinking of calling them "heretics" as an alternative) AND dedicated binders as per the link I provided earlier. Very cool!

I also love thinking of Thayd as a vestige - I'd love to see a write up on him.

This got me to start making some vestiges in the format of the Book of Binding for Maztica. What do you think of this?

Four-Hundred Rabbits Lvl 2 Vestige

Fortuity of Octal

When bound to the four-hundred rabbits, you gain advantage on one Strength or Constitution based roll each turn, but you suffer disadvantage on Dexterity rolls.


Movement of the Hare

You add ten to your movement and gain a burrow speed equal to one-half your unaltered walking speed.

Retribution of Octal

As an action, and once between short and long rests, you may force a creature within 30 feet to make a Wisdom saving throw or lose its Concentration due to a terrible headache that lasts for 1 minute. During this time, a creature who has the headache cannot cast any spells that require Concentration.

Spectral Rabbit

You can cast the *mage hand* cantrip at will, but the spectral hand appears as a floating spectral rabbit instead.

Pact Information

Maize quickly grows from the center of the seal and soon after dies rots. As it putrefies rabbits come from everywhere to partake of the feast. They continue eating as one drunkenly turns towards to regard your presence.



Physical Sign. You exhibit all the typical features of an individual influenced by heavy alcohol use including slurred speech, staggered walking and a lack of an ability to focus.


Legend. The god Qotal's greatest shame was his uncontrollable lust for his own sister Kiltzi. His terrible actions led to his eventual self imposed exile for a full age of mankind. He was not aware that Kiltzi had in fact given birth to not just one child, but hundreds. These demi-deities collectively became known as the four hundred rabbits.

The four hundred rabbits, each with their own personality, rejected the love of their mother and in shame under the circumstances of their birth began to partake of the fermented drink known as octal in heavy quantities. Had they not partaken so heavily, they might have found enough worship and acceptance among mankind to become deities in their own right.

Alas, it was not meant to be as the rabbits slowly drank themselves into oblivion, fading from the world slowly to the notice of very few.

Influence. If you make a poor pact with the four-hundred rabbits, they influence your personality in one or both of the following ways.

Personality Trait. I avoid verbal conflict and always pretend that everything is okay, despite evidence to the contrary. Fighting among friends makes me terribly uncomfortable.

Ideal. Laziness. I don't want to work for anything unless I am forced to. Life is so much better when you just ignore problems and eventually, they will go away on their own.

--------

I've aso started writing up ones on Gultec, Coatlicue and possibly Maztica herself.

Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!

The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign

Edited by - Seethyr on 23 Feb 2019 20:30:52
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