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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Nov 2018 : 04:51:15
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These guys, the Cecaelia, randomly popped into my head yesterday. For those unwilling or unable to click on the link: they're octopus people. From the waist up, they're human, from the waist down, they're octopi.
I know the Realms has things like kraken and the tako race (intelligent octopi), but I'm not recalling if the cecaelia -- or anything like them -- were present in the Realms. Does anyone recall seeing these guys anywhere?
I'm thinking of using one as an NPC. Tentatively, I'm thinking of dropping a nation of these guys in some undescribed Torilian ocean, and having one find his way to more familiar shores.
Thoughts, comments, hentacle jokes?
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Nov 2018 04:51:41
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2018 : 05:12:04
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| They have a distressing tendency to make faustian deals with pretty, redheaded teenage merfolk. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2018 : 05:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
They have a distressing tendency to make faustian deals with pretty, redheaded teenage merfolk.
In one of my long-ago Hooks, I created a magical device specifically to give merfolk legs and the ability to breathe air. I couldn't come up with a better name than Drywalker's Amulet, but now I'm thinking I should have made a Little Mermaid reference, there. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2018 : 15:23:26
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Right, let's drag a copyconcatenataur from Pozzfinder in, horror vacui without it...
The seas of Toril already have kraken, morkoth, blue ring octopi, vampire squid and tako. I probably missed something more. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2018 : 16:20:09
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I don't know that the race originated with Pathfinder; that's just where I found the description. I have a Lego minifig that's the same basic design and rather predates Pathfinder, so it's not like they were the first to come up with it.
And even if they were the first to use it as a D&D race, what of it? Does the appearance of something in one game system somehow invalidate its worth? Does the fact that it's Pathfinder somehow mean it can never, ever be used elsewhere?
Also, your accusation of horror vacui is utterly invalid. I like the idea of octopus people. Real-world mythology and RPGs are full of various human-animal hybrids, but the seas don't offer as many opportunities, there. I'm looking to run with this as a one-off purely because I like the combination, nothing more. The idea of a nation of these guys in some unknown part of Toril is just an easier way to execute the NPC concept.
Lastly, I've been reading Realms material practically since the Realms was a published setting. In that timeframe, and with everything I've read, it's easy to forget or overlook things, so part of the intent of my post was to find out if something like this already existed in the Realms. You clearly don't like the idea, but that's no reason to assume motivations that are not stated.
So... Does anyone have anything constructive to offer? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Nov 2018 16:20:23 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2018 : 16:27:16
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They've been around a lot longer than before pathfinder.
Wooly, IF you do do something with them, about a year ago I was wanting to introduce a culture of them in the waters around Katashaka. I can't find the forum entries though, but I remember Markustay giving me a name for the beings from somewhere else and there was a wiki entry for them. I think its a great idea to introduce them alongside a culture of merfolk even if it does harken a bit to the little mermaid. Another tauric seafolk could be a seafolk that's a crustacean (and there's already entries for a sea scorpion folk as well from Seethyr). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2018 : 03:53:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
they look pretty much just non celestial Zoveri
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/zoveri.php
Ah, very good. They appeared in Planes of Law, in 1995 -- 7 years before Paizo was founded, and certainly well before Pathfinder.
Not sure if that was their first appearance or not, but now we're talking about modifying an existing D&D critter from a planar version to a Prime one.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2018 : 08:28:07
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Easy enough to do. If these people-creatures originated on some watery Inner or Outer planar domain then the gate/portal/whatever would simply connect to a watery place in the Prime. If it's somewhere isolated and remote then they could live undiscovered for a long time (not unlike Avariels or Saurials). They could even be transient visitors of a sort, denizens of an aquatic demiplane which drifts and overlaps through the pelagic parts of the cosmos (as the Feywild, Yuirwood, Underdark, Ravenloft, Shadowfell are thought to drift through and intersect with other aspects of the Prime). They might be migrants, refugees, lost, stranded, summoned, banished, all sorts of possibilities.
Basically just sayin' that if Planescape is involved then it already provides enough explanation, while the "planar" vs "prime" versions of the species are really the same thing except in specific matters involving their "native" planar affinities, nature of their souls/spirits, etc. |
[/Ayrik] |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2018 : 11:00:35
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| Yeah, I'd go with Ayrik's the Celestial vs Prime suggestion as well. If there is already a D&D precedent (Planes of Law) for the celestial variant, then it is very possible for a "non-celestial" mortal (prime) race of these to exist in Toril. Which one came first…. well, that's up to you. |
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Villalon
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2018 : 12:42:05
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| How advanced or backward would those octopi people/creatures be? |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2018 : 13:25:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Villalon
How advanced or backward would those octopi people/creatures be?
Crumbleton's Law: The level of intelligence of a species is directly related to the number of tentacles.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2018 : 13:38:16
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Yeah, I'd say relate the two, but have the outer planar come after the prime. I'd definitely say it needs to have its planar connections toned down to weaken the prime version. In fact, I'd probably give its planar aspects to the source of their birth. Maybe they are the offspring of a fey/archfey version of "sea fey" and some prime version of these beings that resembles the end product. The batrachi may have created the prime version of this race, and maybe one of these batrachi creations crossed their batrachi masters because they were in love with a fey (a leader possibly amongst an enemy creator race).
Another take might be that their ability to shapechange into elves was specifically engineered by the batrachi so that they could infiltrate fey society as a spy (after all, they created doppelgangers and tako). The Zoveri however are notedly good with very good types of magical abilities, so the ones that migrated to the outer planes might have been a colony of such that were "rescued" or something. In this version, they may keep the ability to take on a specific humanoid form, but lose the other abilities. In an homage to the little mermaid, maybe they can even "transfer" this ability to take on "land legs" via a ritual that involves sacrificing something of importance to the individual (like how Ariel gave up her voice). This ability to shapeshift in 5e could also be as simple as being able to cast a version of alter self that does the opposite of "aquatic adaptation" (let's call this version "aquatic alter self"), and maybe the aforementioned ritual is simply allowing someone to use alter self on another person and then extending the duration by tying the ability to a "pearl". Maybe in doing so, the octopus person themselves "ties up" their own ability to use aquatic alter self.
By the way, on the topic of Zoveri, Gray Richardson apparently also tried to link the Zoveri to the batrachi creator race and the doppelgangers in this thread about 6 years back. Basically, his take is that they were batrachi who were penitent and wanted to go back to the sea after releasing the primordials that caused the tearfall. They tried to change their form, but the magic went awry. They became the Zoveri (see the threads below). I'm inclined to follow this story possibly to a degree. Perhaps they saw they would not be able to claim the land any longer, so some batrachi sought to transform themselves. However, the magic went awry because magic was unstable. Or maybe they were changed because some batrachi were somewhere near some powerful artifact when the tearfall happened and some magical occurrence happened that "degenerated" their form to become octopoidal. Maybe it even had something to do with the primordial that they released (they released more than just Asgorath). After this, maybe some of these unfortunates became the Zoveri (and they took on maybe the name of their leader?). Others didn't and they became something else?
You know what... given my idea of putting them near Katashaka, that works quite well if these "batrachi" that become the "octopus people" were located in what becomes Halruaa prior to the impact that creates the Lake Halruaa area. Maybe even their transformation was a last ditch effort to save their society by converting themselves as sea waters rushed in after a giant shard of the moon crashed there, but magic being unstable made the transformation go awry, and thus they became the "octopoid centaur" people we've been discussing. Having survivor's guilt, maybe some of these transformed became good and went on to the heavens. Others stayed in the prime.
Links to the forum discussions where Gray Richardson mentioned the Zoveri and was tying them to the batrachi.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=16653&
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?whichpage=1.56&TOPIC_ID=16929&
So, to continue the discussion... what would be some good racial abilities for the prime version. I'm thinking all the cure abilities of the Zoveri should wash away, but the idea of the "aquatic alter self" should stay. Maybe even they've stayed hidden by "posing" as merfolk, tritons, sea elves, locathah, etc... to other societies. Maybe they've even infiltrated other underwater societies and instigated conflicts, led societies to wars, etc...
But, besides the alter self, what are some other good abilities for them that don't overpower them?
Who are their primary gods? I prefer to believe that some of them worship Talos and provide thanks to him for the creation of their race during a time of great destruction. Others worship Istishia, Umberlee, or Eldath as goddesses of water. Others more focused on magic, spying and infiltration may worship Leira, and in a little known twist of fate, maybe many of the "fey" on Nimbral and Samarach are in fact these beings holding a land form. Still others may worship Cegilune the hag goddess, who also has ties to the moon (and they may tie the creation of their race and the destruction of the moon), and they may consort with sea hags, possibly working with them to take children and work transformative magical rituals upon them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2018 : 14:42:32
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Also, just a note, another name which seems popular and may work so as not to copy pathfinder's name is "Cilophyte". It dates back to at least the 70's with the magazine Vampirella.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ComicBook/Cilia
"Cilia" is seven-page short comic story published in issue #16 of the Vampirella comic magazine, released in March of 1972. It is written by Nicola Cuti and Drawn by Felix Mas. It is notable as the source of the terms "cilophyte" and "cecaelia" to denote an octopus-based mermaid, although the latter term does not appear in the comic and may be a corrupted adaptation of the title character's name.
Also, the greek monster Scylla was noted to have tentacles instead of legs (but also being noted different in other ways as well). Maybe in an homage to both, a racial name of Scyllophyte would work for the prime version if we wanted to differentiate form the Zoveri/planar version? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
952 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2018 : 16:00:20
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| Would you consider a sizable minority of these octopus folk as worshippers of the Triad? They indeed resemble Zoveri, who are inhabitants of the Silver Sea of Celestia's first layer Lunia. My two copper pieces. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2018 : 16:03:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Easy enough to do. If these people-creatures originated on some watery Inner or Outer planar domain then the gate/portal/whatever would simply connect to a watery place in the Prime. If it's somewhere isolated and remote then they could live undiscovered for a long time (not unlike Avariels or Saurials).
The problem is that while an easy solution to "out of nowhere" problem is indeed to dump [just about anything from outside the world] somewhere sufficiently isolated and remote, then claim it was there fo centuries, this condition is very much Lindy-compatible. That is, places which were isolated and remote for very long tend to stay isolated. Then no one will go there, unless chased up a ladder built of contrived coincidences.
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
Yeah, I'd go with Ayrik's the Celestial vs Prime suggestion as well. If there is already a D&D precedent (Planes of Law) for the celestial variant, then it is very possible for a "non-celestial" mortal (prime) race of these to exist in Toril. Which one came first…. well, that's up to you.
Good,good… Now let's apply the same approach to the rest of their compatriots and see where it leads. 
Or even "better", to guardinals.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2018 : 17:56:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Would you consider a sizable minority of these octopus folk as worshippers of the Triad? They indeed resemble Zoveri, who are inhabitants of the Silver Sea of Celestia's first layer Lunia. My two copper pieces.
Of the Zoveri in the outer planes, yes I could very much see it for Ilmater. Torm and Tyr, less so, but in their role as "defenders" some might focus on Heimd…. I mean Helm. Of the Toril bound variety that I'd be interested in placing in the Shining South/Nimbral/Chult/Katashaka/Maztica regions.... can't see it there. But, that would be my take wherein the Zoveri have similar looks but different capabilities from the prime versions. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2018 : 21:48:35
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Heh, I was looking to do a one-off NPC, and y'all are taking this and running away with it. I like that!  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2018 : 01:31:04
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| lol, honestly, you just resparked something I'd been thinking about last year, and then someone else provided more fuel with the Zoveri reference. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2018 : 01:41:39
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| One-off NPC could just a be a random teleport, itinerant planewalker, aborted summoning, stray adventurer. Possibly in service to (or on the run from) some sort of plane-savvy master. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2018 : 03:23:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
One-off NPC could just a be a random teleport, itinerant planewalker, aborted summoning, stray adventurer. Possibly in service to (or on the run from) some sort of plane-savvy master.
Yeah, getting him where I need him isn't the issue... I was just wanting to know what, exactly, I had to work with. I've no intention of creating a detailed fictional homeland for a one-off NPC, or anything like that, I was just looking to see what already existed and what could be done with it.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2018 : 07:13:45
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| A lone scout. Who arrived through the same underwater portal/thing that sahuagin or kuo-toa raiders from the Realms have been using for their extraplanar incursions (minions to some delightfully ambitious fiend or water djinn or whatnot who happens to be a fair adversary for the party). Backstory and origins can be ignored if the portal/thing is somehow "permanently" closed or destroyed at the adventure's conclusion. Octoperson can return home or get killed or simply swim away into the sunset. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Nov 2018 07:17:23 |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2018 : 04:40:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Heh, I was looking to do a one-off NPC, and y'all are taking this and running away with it. I like that!
For an one-off NPC, even a "bog standard" Zoveri is not necessarily out of place. Just a lost planewalker.
And even in Serôs can be made a regular fixture as e.g. summoned by and/or attached to (as an ally/advisor) a temple or some dukar. After all, LG morkoth dukar happens. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2018 : 04:07:30
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So I found this link for cecaelia on D&D Beyond...
The Netherese are the obvious choice, going with this origin, but something else might be interesting...
Perhaps a group of Jhaamdathi found themselves trapped with a dwindling air supply, after the Killing Wave, and the cecaelia transformation was a desperate attempt to survive. The kraken part might even be pure myth, for the race -- maybe one of them, thinking of kraken, suggested the new form, or perhaps that was a latter addition to the race's mythology, something to explain their form.
Of course, a problem with the whole thing is: why not take a temporary form, or just use some sort of translocation? Psionicists and wizards both would have that option... Unless they lacked the power to do that.
Another idea is that these were spellcasters living in an underwater location, and they chose this form as a more useful one for living underwater. Perhaps a Netherese enclave somewhere off the Sword Coast. Some of the Netherese had adopted the new form for its utility. They lived in an underwater enclave, with a bubble of breathable air supplied by magic tied to the mythallar. When Karsus did his thing, that bubble of air collapsed, and only the cecaelia survived. Seeing what happened to Netheril, they decided to remain as they were, and as the generations passed, they forgot their origins.
Another option would be that this group of humanoids was somehow cursed into their new form...
How about this? Chuck that D&D Beyond backstory, and have the cecaelia as an entirely new race, something Slarkrethel created. The kraken decided to make some new servants, and the cecaelia were the result. Mr. Calamari has been around for over 1000 years; that's plenty of time for playing around and getting creative. Maybe the cecaelia are some of his most favored servants; they were formerly human, but consumed a potion that contained some of Slarkrethel's blood, and were transformed into their new forms.
I really like that last idea, but it actually complicates what I was trying to do with my one-off NPC! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2018 : 16:06:10
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With that option of a magically powerful society which sank beneath the waves, I'd again look back towards the idea of the batrachi in Halruaa long ago (the time of the tearfall). The impact of a chunk of magical rock may have transformed the batrachi. In my viewpoint, the body of such would be less "perfectly human" in appearance in that circumstance. It could have also have been that those batrachi had human slaves and in a desperate bid to survive they merged somehow OR it could simply be that they have some doppelganger type ability and they can make their top half appear human (or elf, etc...).
In that instance, if it was during the tearfall incident with primordials released, etc... I wouldn't be surprised if there were some kind of magical instability at the time. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Octopus people (Cecaelia) in the Realms?
