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Sesserdrix
Acolyte
9 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2018 : 11:31:17
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Howdy everyone,
Glad to have found this place! Also super glad to have found that 800mb map of Toril that was posted up here.
Anyway, I've had a question for a little while that I haven't been able to reasonably answer. Is there any official FR stuff that talks about other planets in the solar system and the like? Or is "Forgotten Realms" bounded to the planet of Toril + the visible celestial bodies?
Whenever I go looking for information on this, I invariably end up finding Spelljammer content (for good reason), but I am unsure if things like crystal spheres and spelljammers (rather than just Halruaan airships) were ever adopted as native to FR lore rather than another setting making use of FR.
Anyone able to add some clarity or refer something to read more on this subject? My players are not likely to ever end up in a situation to travel to the stars, but I've always found having a richer understanding of everything about a setting helps me to make better and more compelling stories for my games.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2018 : 12:19:56
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The "Forgotten Realms" is a term specific to the world of Toril. "Realmspace" is the space contained within the crystal sphere that includes Toril. A case could be made to include the moon Selune as well, but I don't necessarily.
The Spelljammer content is what you want. TSR created content to tie the various settings to Spelljammer. Realmspace was for the Forgotten Realms, Greyspace was for Greyhawk, Krynnspace was for Dragonlance.
Also, Ed Greenwood (creator of the Forgotten Realms setting), wrote the Lost Ship Spelljammer Accessory.
As for whether spelljammers were adopted to FR lore the answer is absolutely. The elves have ties with the Elven Imperial Navy and have (or had) several spelljammers in defense of Evermeet. The Netherese had some spelljamming. Thay has some spelljamming. Mind Flayers and Beholders theoretically come from other Crystal Spheres, etc. The list goes on and on and on.
Start with Lost Ships and Realmspace to find good info. |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2018 : 14:02:06
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There's been some great work on Realmspace lore on the Forgotten Realms Wiki. You should find most things written up there now.
https://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Realmspace |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2018 : 17:14:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The "Forgotten Realms" is a term specific to the world of Toril. "Realmspace" is the space contained within the crystal sphere that includes Toril. A case could be made to include the moon Selune as well, but I don't necessarily.
The Spelljammer content is what you want. TSR created content to tie the various settings to Spelljammer. Realmspace was for the Forgotten Realms, Greyspace was for Greyhawk, Krynnspace was for Dragonlance.
Also, Ed Greenwood (creator of the Forgotten Realms setting), wrote the Lost Ship Spelljammer Accessory.
As for whether spelljammers were adopted to FR lore the answer is absolutely. The elves have ties with the Elven Imperial Navy and have (or had) several spelljammers in defense of Evermeet. The Netherese had some spelljamming. Thay has some spelljamming. Mind Flayers and Beholders theoretically come from other Crystal Spheres, etc. The list goes on and on and on.
Start with Lost Ships and Realmspace to find good info.
My favorite example is the fact that an elven spelljammer was involved in the defense of Myth Drannor, crashed, and is now the lair of a dracolich. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2018 : 23:36:14
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Just to also point out, the original spelljammer was automatically tied to the realms, because it had Kara-Tur specifically sending out dragon ships from Shou Lung. Also, the "de facto" rock of bral was in realmspace (as in you could put it anywhere, but they stated it was in realmspace for purposes of defining where TSR would locate it). Later books also located Wa as competitors to Shou Lung (at least I don't think they were involved at the outset). In addition, Nimbral was specified as a port, and there was even a spelljammer novel that had some Nimbraii involvement of some sort (never read it personally).
Of all of this, realmspace is the most detailed of the sourcebooks for the other planets of this crystal sphere. While some will pan the work (it wasn't great in my book, but it was also one of the starting books while they were still hashing out ideas. I accept is as "mostly canon" as in until I see something that makes me go "hells no", I'll accept what it says as true). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sesserdrix
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2018 : 00:00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The "Forgotten Realms" is a term specific to the world of Toril. "Realmspace" is the space contained within the crystal sphere that includes Toril. A case could be made to include the moon Selune as well, but I don't necessarily.
The Spelljammer content is what you want. TSR created content to tie the various settings to Spelljammer. Realmspace was for the Forgotten Realms, Greyspace was for Greyhawk, Krynnspace was for Dragonlance.
Also, Ed Greenwood (creator of the Forgotten Realms setting), wrote the Lost Ship Spelljammer Accessory.
As for whether spelljammers were adopted to FR lore the answer is absolutely. The elves have ties with the Elven Imperial Navy and have (or had) several spelljammers in defense of Evermeet. The Netherese had some spelljamming. Thay has some spelljamming. Mind Flayers and Beholders theoretically come from other Crystal Spheres, etc. The list goes on and on and on.
Start with Lost Ships and Realmspace to find good info.
Alright, so based on this, Forgotten Realms Lore specifically doesn't deal with anything out side of Toril, possibly Selune (Moon), and the possibly the Sun (in the origin story)? Everything else in the solar system would be totally undefined for a FR lore focused game?
I run a lot of my games off of 3rd Edition books, clinging lovingly to my copy of the FRCS and Grand History. I tend to want to keep my games as lore consistent as possible to Forgotten Realms so that way when my players later go reading, they can be all "Oh hey! I remember that!" from my games. I think that makes reading about the Realms a far more enriching experience for them and it makes it a hell of a lot more fun for me. So I tend to try to avoid adding info from things that are not FR branded as they may not sync up perfectly, like Planescape's representation of the Great Wheel doesn't sync up well with 3/3.5 FR's World Tree cosmology. However, with Spelljammers existing for sure, I am guessing those Spelljammer books don't clash much with the Realms if at all?
Thanks for the info all! This gives me a ton to go off of. |
Edited by - Sesserdrix on 06 Sep 2018 00:01:46 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2018 : 00:32:34
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So, connecting planescape and spelljammer to the realms:
Everything in Spelljammer occurs on what is called the Prime Material Plane. Think of it as a universe. Unline our universe, their solar systems have shells around them called Crystal Spheres. This universe is one of many such universes in what is called the "multiverse," ours would be another. This Multiverse is what Ed was talking about long ago when he described many worlds like our own in different dimensions that are forgotten - thus the Forgotten Realms.
The backstory goes that a wizard from Toril would pop in on Earth and tell Ed stories about his home world, Toril, and all the wondrous things there. He is called Elminster. If one still ascribes to that version of the Realms, then all of our Realms Lore comes second hand through such travelers to the writers.
Now where does Planescape fit in. Well, the Multiverse of parallel Prime Material Planes is just one of infinite planes of existence which are also included in the term "multiverse." Some of these are tied to the elements that make up the substance of the prime material plane - these are the inner planes, which in my book are the easiest to comprehend. Beyond that, Planescape cosmology had the Ethereal Plane... kind of a cocoon that wraps all the physical planes together and exists in the cracks. Next came the Astral Plane which is hard to describe because it is the Plane of Thought... the idea that behind all existence is the thought that spawned it - trippy stuff really.
The Big Planes - the ones people think about really, are the outer planes. Every heaven and every hell and the abyss too. There are a lot of them and they are generally arranged by alignment. Evil to good and lawful to chaotic. This is where we get the demons and daemons and devils and angels and what-all-else. Its also where most of the gods live. Over the course of Planescape there were 3 or 4 different models trying to put this all into 1 big visual but in the end since each plane is infinite those are all just conceptualizations of the relationships, rather than actual maps. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2018 : 10:36:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
the "de facto" rock of bral was in realmspace (as in you could put it anywhere, but they stated it was in realmspace for purposes of defining where TSR would locate it).
This sounded incorrect to me so I found my copy (that took some serious searching) and double checked. The Rock was not stated to be in Realmspace. It was:
"designed to have no particular location... In Realmspace (it) fits well with The Tears of Selune or the Rings of Glyth. In Greyspace, Bral is perfect for the Grinder. The Rock may also be placed in Krynnspace, among the moons of Zivilyn..." etc. etc. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2018 : 12:43:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
the "de facto" rock of bral was in realmspace (as in you could put it anywhere, but they stated it was in realmspace for purposes of defining where TSR would locate it).
This sounded incorrect to me so I found my copy (that took some serious searching) and double checked. The Rock was not stated to be in Realmspace. It was:
"designed to have no particular location... In Realmspace (it) fits well with The Tears of Selune or the Rings of Glyth. In Greyspace, Bral is perfect for the Grinder. The Rock may also be placed in Krynnspace, among the moons of Zivilyn..." etc. etc.
Ah, you are right. I guess I need to reread the old material again. I could have sworn it said it had no particular location, but by default it would be in the Tears of Selune. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2018 : 12:54:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sesserdrix
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The "Forgotten Realms" is a term specific to the world of Toril. "Realmspace" is the space contained within the crystal sphere that includes Toril. A case could be made to include the moon Selune as well, but I don't necessarily.
The Spelljammer content is what you want. TSR created content to tie the various settings to Spelljammer. Realmspace was for the Forgotten Realms, Greyspace was for Greyhawk, Krynnspace was for Dragonlance.
Also, Ed Greenwood (creator of the Forgotten Realms setting), wrote the Lost Ship Spelljammer Accessory.
As for whether spelljammers were adopted to FR lore the answer is absolutely. The elves have ties with the Elven Imperial Navy and have (or had) several spelljammers in defense of Evermeet. The Netherese had some spelljamming. Thay has some spelljamming. Mind Flayers and Beholders theoretically come from other Crystal Spheres, etc. The list goes on and on and on.
Start with Lost Ships and Realmspace to find good info.
Alright, so based on this, Forgotten Realms Lore specifically doesn't deal with anything out side of Toril, possibly Selune (Moon), and the possibly the Sun (in the origin story)? Everything else in the solar system would be totally undefined for a FR lore focused game?
I run a lot of my games off of 3rd Edition books, clinging lovingly to my copy of the FRCS and Grand History. I tend to want to keep my games as lore consistent as possible to Forgotten Realms so that way when my players later go reading, they can be all "Oh hey! I remember that!" from my games. I think that makes reading about the Realms a far more enriching experience for them and it makes it a hell of a lot more fun for me. So I tend to try to avoid adding info from things that are not FR branded as they may not sync up perfectly, like Planescape's representation of the Great Wheel doesn't sync up well with 3/3.5 FR's World Tree cosmology. However, with Spelljammers existing for sure, I am guessing those Spelljammer books don't clash much with the Realms if at all?
Thanks for the info all! This gives me a ton to go off of.
I will add as well that within FR branded books there are references to some of these other worlds. Not a whole lot mind you and they're hard to find. However, I think there have been mentions to the mind flayers on Glyth and beholders on H'Catha. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2018 : 13:20:44
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BTW, one of the things that's been coming up in my thoughts regarding other planets in realmspace revolves around a planet that gets little mention. The second planet (and closest to Toril) is Coliar. Its a gas giant filled with "earth islands" (more modern terminology would likely call these earthmotes, although these islands are not stationary) and water islands. On these land islands are aarakocra, lizard men, and "Coliar Dragons" (which to be a variation of normal dragons). Now, this all immediately made me think of the creator races when I reread the lore last year. The question becomes "did the creator races COME here or were they FROM here, or does this answer vary by race?". My thoughts are more they sent their servants here. To add further to this idea, the lizard folk here are so worried about breeding greater stock that they send their eggs on spelljammers to rotate close to the sun (the dragons also do this). The dragons as well "don't breed true" and often interbreed and are extremely neutral. I'd half wonder if the "water islands" don't contain some kind of batrachi created race.
Also, given that this "planet" contains 3 of the 4 elements (earth, air, water), I'd half wonder if at one time it didn't contain pockets of fire. Could the Shadow Epoch that occurred prior to the Age of Thunder have been caused when something snuffed out these pockets of fire? Then later the Sun was created by setting a planetary body aflame. It would be kind of interesting to me if the original "sun" was some kind of strange mix of the 4 elements in balance.
Also, if these 3 races (aarakocra, lizard folk, and "Coliar Dragons") are some linkage to the creator races of Toril (advance scouts? Remnants of a now failed community? Possibly the last surviving bits of a community still led by Sarrukh or Aearee in the background unbeknownst to the spelljamming community?), how did they get to the planet? I'd personally prefer that they didn't get there via spelljamming. The idea I would use would be to build on some of what Seethyr is doing for Maztica. In the DMs Guild product TWC1 The Maztica Campaign Guide for 5th edition, he has the Otomi in Huacli having access to an artifact known as the "Door of Stars" (he's also put out an adventure called TWR3 "Door of Stars"). The prior canon lore of the Otomi humans of Huacli was that they were able to resist invaders for years at a time in their mountain fastness. However, a single time the invaders got in, and they found the place empty and assumed the Otomi had fled into the nearby mountains. Essentially it sounds like a stargate (from the TV series), and the Otomi could have used it to resist invaders by bringing in resources from Coliar. It could be interesting if the Sarrukh set it up and were exploring Coliar and the Aearee and/or dragons found it later. Furthermore, it could be used for exploring possibly other planets as well.
Finally, I kind of wonder about the gems that the aarakocra are known to mine and trade. They probably should be special somehow.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 06 Sep 2018 20:36:50 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2018 : 20:09:07
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| My favorite part of Coliar is the Air Dragons. These "advanced dragons," to use the terms of recent editions, are great wyrms that create magical bodies of air and place their consciousness within it. Instead of undeath they become the air of the planet. Super cool. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2018 : 20:44:36
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| yeah, there is definitely some uniqueness to the dragons of this world. I'd almost say its worth calling them "elemental dragons" or somesuch, since they're decidedly neutral, etc... The concept reminds me of the Millenium dragon in Unther whose body is decrepit... though I think he was working through projected images or something. I'd have to doublecheck. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2018 : 20:46:52
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| yeah, there is definitely some uniqueness to the dragons of this world. I'd almost say its worth calling them "elemental dragons" or somesuch, since they're decidedly neutral, etc... The concept reminds me of the Millenium dragon in Unther whose body is decrepit... though I think he was working through projected images or something. I'd have to doublecheck. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2018 : 04:29:52
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The Rock of Bral accessory and the Spelljammer boxed set does indeed not specify a location of Bral, but the Spelljammer novels do, insofar as it includes planetary bodies that do not exist in Realmspace, Greyspace, or Krynnspace. Faiths & Avatars states Bral *is* in the Tears, but Realmspace mentions a city called Dragon Rock that more than serves the role Bral does.
The easiest way to reconcile the material is just replace Bral with Dragon Rock in Faiths & Avatars.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2018 : 04:39:57
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
The Rock of Bral accessory and the Spelljammer boxed set does indeed not specify a location of Bral, but the Spelljammer novels do, insofar as it includes planetary bodies that do not exist in Realmspace, Greyspace, or Krynnspace. Faiths & Avatars states Bral *is* in the Tears, but Realmspace mentions a city called Dragon Rock that more than serves the role Bral does.
The easiest way to reconcile the material is just replace Bral with Dragon Rock in Faiths & Avatars.
Jeff
...Or ignore the Dragon Rock references, and use the Rock of Bral, instead. The latter is more detailed and more tied into Realmslore, and as I've commented before, Realmspace's lore concerning Toril and Selūne is problematic, at best. Some of the things in Realmspace are flat-out contradicted in published Realmslore, and other Realmspace stuff that you'd think would be worth a mention or two in Realmslore is entirely absent.
And Realmspace was not the only Spelljammer supplement that covered an existing game setting and was problematic in that coverage... As much as I love Spelljammer, I feel that if it pertains to one of the major settings, go with that setting's info before the Spelljammer info. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Sesserdrix
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2018 : 15:55:43
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| Unrelated to this subject, it is awesome reading these replies. In my gaming crew I am generally the lore nut who tries to articulate details of the Realms to newer players. Now here I am reading some of these replies and I'm going "What..." but with lots of stuff to look up. Love this. :D |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2018 : 23:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
The Rock of Bral accessory and the Spelljammer boxed set does indeed not specify a location of Bral, but the Spelljammer novels do, insofar as it includes planetary bodies that do not exist in Realmspace, Greyspace, or Krynnspace. Faiths & Avatars states Bral *is* in the Tears, but Realmspace mentions a city called Dragon Rock that more than serves the role Bral does.
The easiest way to reconcile the material is just replace Bral with Dragon Rock in Faiths & Avatars.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff. That made me go read F&A, and for those who are just as interested... let me make it easy for you. I put some data pulled from it below.
In reading the stuff from F&A where the priests "understand" that Tyr has different names, plus your stuff above, plus some stuff from realmspace about the tears just showing up in the sky 4800 years ago according to some Shou Lung astrologer and emperor.... plus some stuff we were recently discussing about "where is the flying castle that orbits the world and never hits sunlight that the gem dragon god Sardior and his Thanes are on"...... plus the idea that the "dragon laser" using the Hill of Seven Lost Gods hitting the "moon" on accident created the tears of selune...
I think I'm going to opt for a grand tradition in the Forgotten Realms and call upon you all to HELP ME MAKE ALL OF IT TRUE. So, what if Sardior's "flying castle", the Rock of Bral, and Dragon Rock are all "Tears of Selune".... only come to find out the "dragon laser" did less of blasting a portion off of Selune, and more of a "shattering a second moon, by displacing portions of it into other crystal spheres/planes/dimensions, etc...". This could explain why the Rock of Bral might sometimes be in one place, and other times its in others. It might be why the Tyrran priests are so fanatical about their gods name changing. It would also allow for Sardior's castle to SOMETIMES be flying in orbit of Toril... and sometimes be in Greyspace. Furthermore, with "Dragon Rock".... why is it called Dragon Rock? Well, IF there was some kind of magical accident that happened when the "dragon laser" was "fired"... and we're all assuming it was a "laser"/"beam".... but what if it was simply a raising of energy between different "points" with dragons working some great ritual involving multiple "artifacts".... and the "point" that was up in orbit on a small moon was the one that overloaded. Am I missing anything that makes this not a possibility?
From F&A
Also of note is the one known Tyrran temple in Realmspace not on the surface of Abeir-Toril. The Tyrran church on Bra1 (one of the Tears of Selūne) is known as the Pantheist Temple of Tyr. Its clergy and ceremonies conform to the standards of the Torilian faith, but its priests worship Tyr as a warrior god as well one of justice. They consider Tyr the patron of all good warriors. Pantheistic priests of Tyr recognize any lawful good deity of justice or war as an avatar of their deity and often gain access to spells in many crystal spheres that do not know Tyr by that name. As a deity of justice, Tyr is not very popular in Bral, which is known as a pirate haven. The priests of
the temple feel obligated to take on crime and injustice wherever they find it, and this has led to several small, crusading wars. Priests of Tyr and lawful good warriors from any crystal sphere find a warm welcome at the Pantheist Temple of Tyr, although they may have a hard time adjusting to the idea promoted here that Tyr goes by different names in different places.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Question on Planets and FR
