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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2018 : 05:00:03
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Characters can always work magics higher than their own level ... with some risk.
It's not entirely impossible for a 1st level wizard to become a lich, casting from scrolls, depending on spells cast by others, taking advantage of charged magical items, etc. Chances are pretty high that at least one of many things (dice rolls) would fail, maybe catastrophically - and such a character is hardly sturdy enough to survive even incidental damages - and such a freshly-minted little lich would be a pathetically underclassed weakling when compared to his peers - but it's still not impossible.
Another "equalizer" could be some particular old spell or item which exploits a particular vulnerability in a particular lich. Basically a one-of-a-kind Achilles heel. Or a "deal with the Devil" arrangement where the characters work alongside some other insanely-powerful "ally" towards a mutual goal of destroying the lich.
The 2E Ravenloft book Van Richten's Guide to the Lich is an awesome resource. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2018 : 06:21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Characters can always work magics higher than their own level ... with some risk.
It's not entirely impossible for a 1st level wizard to become a lich, casting from scrolls, depending on spells cast by others, taking advantage of charged magical items, etc. Chances are pretty high that at least one of many things (dice rolls) would fail, maybe catastrophically - and such a character is hardly sturdy enough to survive even incidental damages - and such a freshly-minted little lich would be a pathetically underclassed weakling when compared to his peers - but it's still not impossible.
Another "equalizer" could be some particular old spell or item which exploits a particular vulnerability in a particular lich. Basically a one-of-a-kind Achilles heel. Or a "deal with the Devil" arrangement where the characters work alongside some other insanely-powerful "ally" towards a mutual goal of destroying the lich.
The 2E Ravenloft book Van Richten's Guide to the Lich is an awesome resource.
All The Van Richten's Guides were pretty dope. Really expanded on undead. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2018 : 12:47:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Characters can always work magics higher than their own level ... with some risk.
It's not entirely impossible for a 1st level wizard to become a lich, casting from scrolls, depending on spells cast by others, taking advantage of charged magical items, etc. Chances are pretty high that at least one of many things (dice rolls) would fail, maybe catastrophically - and such a character is hardly sturdy enough to survive even incidental damages - and such a freshly-minted little lich would be a pathetically underclassed weakling when compared to his peers - but it's still not impossible.
Another "equalizer" could be some particular old spell or item which exploits a particular vulnerability in a particular lich. Basically a one-of-a-kind Achilles heel. Or a "deal with the Devil" arrangement where the characters work alongside some other insanely-powerful "ally" towards a mutual goal of destroying the lich.
The 2E Ravenloft book Van Richten's Guide to the Lich is an awesome resource.
Actually considering the evil nature of liches, perhaps one explanation is that since there are multiple different names for the elixir a lich must create and drink.... maybe some of them test the concept on another wizard first. That might make a good explanation. After seeing that the other wizard survives, they may even kill said newborn lich to make sure its soul transfers to the phylactery and is reborn in a waiting host or forms a new body. They may even do this repeatedly to make sure that the process is repeatable. Then, once they're sure its safe, they may transform themselves using the same process, and possibly during this time the other lich escapes (possibly being set to guard the path to the area that the other lich is in). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2018 : 12:44:28
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| The big question there would be, what would the benefit of creating a scroll with the spells needed to become a lich? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2018 : 14:18:34
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I could understand an archmage wanting to perfect his liching process and running some tests on others to eliminate unknown risks and refine the process towards maximum chance of success.
Success equals immortality but failure equals instant and irrevocable death ... a smart gambler would measure the odds and maximize them in his favour, lol.
I could also understand an already-lich "converting" some magelings into lichlings - pets, servants, tools, minions, companions, amusements - usefully immortal but also weak enough to control or destroy when needed. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2018 : 16:10:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Characters can always work magics higher than their own level ... with some risk.
It's not entirely impossible for a 1st level wizard to become a lich, casting from scrolls, depending on spells cast by others, taking advantage of charged magical items, etc. Chances are pretty high that at least one of many things (dice rolls) would fail, maybe catastrophically - and such a character is hardly sturdy enough to survive even incidental damages - and such a freshly-minted little lich would be a pathetically underclassed weakling when compared to his peers - but it's still not impossible.
Another "equalizer" could be some particular old spell or item which exploits a particular vulnerability in a particular lich. Basically a one-of-a-kind Achilles heel. Or a "deal with the Devil" arrangement where the characters work alongside some other insanely-powerful "ally" towards a mutual goal of destroying the lich.
The 2E Ravenloft book Van Richten's Guide to the Lich is an awesome resource.
Also, as another option, really a lich is just a soul tied to a phylactery with some other modifications. So, if someone had say another soul entrapped in something like a magic jar... theoretically they could do a "re-anchoring" of two souls (especially if the lich itself were defeated and had not formed a new body yet).
While I have never explored this concept, it would be interesting if Larloch himself didn't have some methodology for implementing the above. Its probably cheaper cost wise, and if he defeats another lich that he feels might be a problem for him.... he might re-anchor another less powerful spellcaster's soul to the phylactery. And while I say a re-anchoring of the two souls, it may not even BE that.... maybe its just using the energy of the one soul already bound to anchor a soul entrapped in something else to the phylactery (and thus the original lich is destroyed and the new soul becomes a lich).
With this concept in mind, this same process might be enabled to work for NON-spellcasters to a spellcaster's phylactery. This might basically enable the creation of say a fighter/ranger/monk/rogue that is a lich (and the formation of death knights and skeletal warriors may have some basis in this concept). Hell, one might even see paladin liches formed in this manner (a paladin lich of Mystra as an example).
Hmmm, and speaking of lich creation... one of the concepts in the recent Gen Con handout about the formation of the Thayan Zulkirate was the concept that contact with the "Athora" beneath Thaymount sped up the "lich" process on Ythazz Buvaar, such that he went from straight from mortal to demilich. Given the number of "demiliches" that Szass Tam currently has access to (I want to say he has at least 2 if not more)… I suspect he's been experimenting with lich creation using the Athora over the last century (and thus these aren't TRUE demiliches like we'd be used to having lived for centuries or millenia as liches). Which also brings me back to Larloch.... and I wonder if his Warlock's Crypt isn't located above some extremely powerful magic item similar to the Athora of Thay.... and maybe it was part of how he became a more powerful kind of lich. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Sep 2018 16:23:01 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2018 : 16:37:14
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Demilich instead of a lich. Ancient wyrm instead of a dragon. Gods and primordials instead of heroes and villains. Supernova instead of a mere nova.
So I'm a little skeptical about this "Gen Con handout". To me it just seems like the usual uncreative and auctorial inflation. But if for you it makes better stories and gameplay then enjoy! |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2018 : 00:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Demilich instead of a lich. Ancient wyrm instead of a dragon. Gods and primordials instead of heroes and villains. Supernova instead of a mere nova.
So I'm a little skeptical about this "Gen Con handout". To me it just seems like the usual uncreative and auctorial inflation. But if for you it makes better stories and gameplay then enjoy!
I'm not real fond on the hints about Tam, and I would have done some other things in a different way (I had actually written up Ythazz Buvaar as being a survivor from the Theurgist Adepts who became a lich and then after becoming a Zulkir he became a demilich). However, this does kind of work for me as an alternative wherein we have Ythazz as a living human leading the people of Thay during the rebellion and suddenly finding himself as a demilich after something goes wrong. I'll also give Krash some props on building into the storyline a reason for both Zhengyi and Velsharoon to be worried about becoming liches and being willing to go that "extra mile". However, I will also say that I do like Ed's original concept that Thayd was involved with the Thayan rebellion, and I picture Thayd as possibly being "absorbed" into the Athora kind of like a weave ghost / kind of like a Suel Lich / kind of like a Vestige.... want to work that out. I also plan on doing something with Jorgmacdon.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Fineva
Seeker
Canada
79 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2018 : 03:29:33
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| Ok, just what IS under Thay? A dark elven city? A buried Netherese lab? Never heard of an Althora either. |
I" am Sathia of Orogoth |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2018 : 04:41:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Demilich instead of a lich. Ancient wyrm instead of a dragon. Gods and primordials instead of heroes and villains. Supernova instead of a mere nova.
So I'm a little skeptical about this "Gen Con handout". To me it just seems like the usual uncreative and auctorial inflation. But if for you it makes better stories and gameplay then enjoy!
Well as the guy who wrote the "uncreative and auctorial inflation" piece based on Ed's lore, I can only say that I'm very keen to see what you come up with Ayrik to set us all on the straight and narrow. Of course, you could ask for a copy and actually read it before passing judgement, but hey what would D&D fans have to argue about if people did that?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2018 : 07:12:09
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't think you can clone the dead.
-- George Krashos
Interesting! I never even thought about it (cloning the dead). Now I'm wondering, is there some rulebook or even semi-canon lore (e.g. from an officially sanctioned FR novel) that points to the fact that the dead cannot be cloned?
EDIT: Errm never mind. Ayrik's September 3 response seems to have provided the answer.
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Edited by - moonbeast on 17 Sep 2018 07:13:39 |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2018 : 07:15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
Ok, just what IS under Thay? A dark elven city? A buried Netherese lab?
A colony of lawful good were-hamsters would be my guess!
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2018 : 10:21:07
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| A google search made me find "Dead in Thay", a 2014 module containing something called "Doomvault", an Thayan version of the Undermountain. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2018 : 10:56:01
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well as the guy who wrote the "uncreative and auctorial inflation" piece based on Ed's lore, I can only say that I'm very keen to see what you come up with Ayrik to set us all on the straight and narrow. Of course, you could ask for a copy and actually read it before passing judgement, but hey what would D&D fans have to argue about if people did that?
I do apologize for the insult and it is true that I haven't read this work (yet). I meant to comment on general WotC trends which I often find somewhat disagreeable, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2018 : 12:36:49
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't think you can clone the dead.
-- George Krashos
Interesting! I never even thought about it (cloning the dead). Now I'm wondering, is there some rulebook or even semi-canon lore (e.g. from an officially sanctioned FR novel) that points to the fact that the dead cannot be cloned?
EDIT: Errm never mind. Ayrik's September 3 response seems to have provided the answer.
Bear in mind, lich shapechanges into a living person that is basically like himself when alive. Takes what he needs, heals himself, and then back to being a lich. I think that would work in both current and 3.5e rulesets... might be wrong. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2018 : 12:38:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
Ok, just what IS under Thay? A dark elven city? A buried Netherese lab? Never heard of an Althora either.
Ask George for a copy of his handout, its well researched. But, the Athora is essentially some kind of powerful artifact seemingly of some kind of raw magic potential.
One other thing to point out that George's article doesn't necessarily go into (may only be me coming up with this twist), but I THINK he'd agree with me on ... part of the reason that Tam was trying to perform his ritual with the towers surrounding Thay would be to fuel his ritual to achieve the potential of essentially an overpower or greater god would have possibly called upon the power OF the Athora. So, the Athora might be depleted.. it might be seriously lessened in strength and slowly rebuilding (how lessened? May still be useful for things OTHER than rebuilding the universe).. This may be why Tam is having to search for new lands to attempt the ritual with. Halruaa? Hill of the Seven Lost Gods? Areas with lots of Plangent Crystal? The Raurin Desert? Larloch's Lair? various areas of the High Forest? The Isle of Gwynedd? Not to mention Kara-Tur, Zakhara, the Hordelands, Maztica, Anchorome, Osse, Katashaka, etc... Apparently something was beneath Neverwinter, and we know he was interested in Chult.
I would also give some leanings for this item to Kossuth "the Black Flame".
Also, note, the Athora may be split into nodes. For instance, FR Adventures says that there was a powerful artifact beneath Amruthar that somehow went dormant after the ToT. Noting that Kossuth DID come down to Toril (he was in Chult with some Firenewts), I wouldn't be surprised if he drew the energy out of it. Later, when the Spellplague hit, according to the 4e FRCG, Amruthar became the center point of a lot of fire and earthquake related things, but Kossuth's temple was untouched
From 4e FRCG
Burning Amruthar: Once an independent city within Thay, Amruthar bore the brunt of the land’s devastation. Earthquakes splintered it, lava and mud wrecked some parts, and a rain of rock and
ash buried others. Deep chasms that formed within the city filled with molten rock that never cooled. Miraculously, the black ziggurat dedicated to Kossuth survived the ruin.
The high priest of that temple, the mummy lord Chon Vrael, maintains the place to this day and welcomes worshipers, defying the Thayan ban on deities other than Bane. Chon is a fierce enemy of Szass Tam. The priest commands a small army of fanatics and elemental creatures, including a tribe of fire giants, which helps him keep the city free of Thayan control for now. Some suspect that the Regent of Thay tolerates Burning Amruthar for his own reasons.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 17 Sep 2018 13:01:56 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2018 : 15:30:26
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| I too have not read it, and am often myself guilty of making overly powerful magic items / characters, but it DOES seem to be the trend. I what universe is a millenia old great wyrm not powerful enough that we need to invent not one but like 5 different more powerful dragon forms. |
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Phylacteries and clones
