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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Aug 2018 : 13:41:02
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So, for chromatic and metallic dragons, we have something of an origin story established with the tearfall. That could also work for gem dragons and have all dragons coming from that. I know many will espouse to leave it at exactly that. However, just to throw out for discussion, what if gem dragons were something different (and I'm not quite sure what and/or how as yet)? By this, I note the source of their magic to be different (i.e. the mind/psionics which is generally considered a different source than the weave and which was unaffected by the death of Mystra during the ToT). Also, even if we don't give them a different origin, perhaps the discussion will work towards better detailing how they and/or psionics "fit" in the realms.
So, towards that concept, I'm going to throw down some things that are passing through my head, and maybe if we all look them over it will gel into something better for us.
First, gems/crystals are linked to psionics. Gem dragons are linked to psionics. One of the things I've posited in the past is what if some of the original psicrystals that psionicists embed portions of their personality into were "special" … maybe they're the scales of gem dragons that died of old age. Maybe this is how the humans of Jhaamdath learned of psionics. Maybe a dying gem dragon (or gem dragons) embedded its/their personality into its gem-like scales. Along these lines, we do have this from GHotR
349: Kisonraathiisar’s Slow Demise
The following transcript is a translation of some Draconic runes inscribed on the scaled corpse of Kisonraathiisar, which was
hidden in a secret subbasement below Castle Thalavar in the city of Westgate
For five days I have struggled against these eldritch bonds, but I have been unable to move a muscle thanks to my tormentor, Saldrinar—a mewling meat wizard from the South. Each day, another of his infernal spells is triggered by the previous one, granting me a brief moment of agonizing lucidity before I lapse back into a timeless sleep. I suspect that I can last no more than another day or two, but knowing that my time is nigh, I try to use these brief moments to manifest my last thoughts as runes upon my scales.
We've also collectively posited here that the Jhaamdathi were being bred and/or trained to be a psionically empowered humanoid war force for gem dragons. This can also be somewhat upheld with that GHotR entry for
–349 DR Year of Bold Poachers
The Netherese wizard Saldrinar destroys Kisonraathiisar, the topaz dragon ruler of Westgate [–286], and becomes the city’s first human king.
–349: Kisonraathiisar’s Slow Demise
While Saldrinar’s two-legged ants swarm across my kingdom and slaughter the tribes of dragonkin that I have carefully nurtured into stewards of my demesne, I see Null’s dull claws inexorably crushing the future that I had hoped to create. For millennia, my kind has labored to build kingdoms that might survive the King-Killer’s Baleful Eye. But just as I stood upon the cusp of escaping that curse, my plans were laid low by a scion of those arrogant Netherese fools. This Saldrinar cares not for the work of ages; he seeks only to steal what he cannot build and claim what is not his to own.
So, some would also say that the Yuan-Ti are also psionic, and they are the source of psionics amongst the Jhaamdath people. However, we also know that many Yuan-Ti are the result of "converting" humans into Yuan-Ti. We also know that the statements linking Yuan-Ti to psionics or magic vary between editions (and we also know that's because typically psionics aren't released until after the main rules). However, what if the power sources for various yuan-ti is different. Maybe the yuan-ti which occupy the Vilhon area gained psionics by converting Jhaamdathi humans.... OR maybe they used a local power source of some sort that had powerful ties to psionics during the ritual to create the yuan-ti of the Vilhon
So, how does any of this relate to a possible origin for gem dragons? Well, it does only in that it puts gem dragons specifically in the Vilhon Reach area. Does that mean that's their origin point? Of course not... they have millenia to move around... but what if it were their origin point?
So, what else do we have in the Vilhon / Westgate area that may also be linked to gem dragons? Well, apparently there's also the Hill of the Seven Lost gods. This is a place of great power that has been associated by some to the primordial entities that the Dark Three slew, especially Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud. Its also been associated to the gods "Moander, Garagos, Ghaunadaur, Jergal, Savras, Silvanus, and one whose name was lost". Its also associated in the above to the creation of something that fired into the sky and either hit the moon or another orbiting entity and that is the source of the tears of Selune.
In the desperate hope that another of Asgorath’s children might chance upon my remains and seek what I have found, I now reveal my most precious piece of knowledge: The Hills of the Seven Lost Gods are not what they first seem. Each of the seven rings of standing stones dates back to the last days of the Reign of Dragons, when the elder wyrms sought to reverse what the elves had wrought. My ancestors
tried to focus the Weave into a weapon of unparalleled might that could shatter the Drifting Stars into clouds of rubble in the heavens above. But they scored only a glancing blow on the moon that circles our world, leaving only a string of tears and an inland sea to mark their failure. Now reason is once again undone by rage, and all that dragons have wrought crumbles slowly into dust.
One thing to note in the above is that the dragon that stated it is stating their own understanding, which may be flawed.
So, what might this Hill of Seven Lost Gods be? I'm brought to the concepts of what's beneath Thaymount in the recent article Ed Greenwood and George Krashos co-authored "Tyrants in Scarlet The Founding History of the Zulkirs of Thay" which talks about what exactly might be beneath the Thaymount and Amruthar. In said article, he mentions the concept of the Athora as being a powerful substance of sorts beneath Thay which could be linked to "the black star" and that the Sarrukh were studying it... however, in the interests of expediency, lets just cut to the chase here and say that maybe what's beneath the Hill of Seven Lost Gods is something "similar" just in that its a powerful source of some kind of mind magic.
So, how does this help us? What's the point? Well, what if this power source can change things? What if the dragons that empowered the "weapon of unparalleled might" were CHANGED by it into the original gem dragons? What if they HAD to change themselves into a living psionically focused type of dragon to even ATTEMPT the firing of the "weapon of unparalled might"? What if this is also why gem dragons are traditionally seen as neutral, because this bonding involved a bonding with nature/gems that imposed a more impartial/"druidic" viewpoint on the dragons.
Along these same lines, if this powerful source of psionic energy can be used to change creatures, perhaps the Sarrukh sought it out in the creation of another breed of yuan-ti... and thus the psionic yuan-ti came about. After all, they may have recognized it as similar to the athora beneath what would become Thay. Also, just as the athora would awaken the weave within individuals near it, this artifact may have awakened psionics in those near it.
So, along these same lines, what are Udoxias? Could they have some link to this strange artifact? Could the artifact be split asunder similar to how the beings of Abeir split off portions of their primordials to create powerful magical items? If so, might the Udoxias be some kind of broken off portion of this magical power source?
Also, regarding the "gods" said to be tied to the Hill of Seven Lost gods... this possible "artifact" that MIGHT exist that's similar to the Athora, well, its also similar to the Radiance of Glantri... and in Mystara the Radiance was a power source used by folk to achieve the status of an immortal. So, we have several individual gods said to be linked to the Hill of Seven Lost Gods, specifically "These gods were Moander, Garagos, Ghaunadaur, Jergal, Savras, Silvanus, and one whose name was lost". I'd posit that SOME of these are primordial like entities with ties to the artifact (specifically Moander and Ghaunadaur ring more as primordial like than god like to me), and others such as Savras may have used this site as an "ascension point" (doing what Karsus messed up with). I would also wonder what ties Auppenser may have to this power source (is he one of the lost gods... is he the power source itself... is he the god of gem dragons acting under an alias).
Anyway, I feel like I've gotten enough into the weeds with what I'm presenting that I'd like to hear other scribes musings. What do you think on this matter?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Aug 2018 13:52:30
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2018 : 16:15:36
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Oh, and my original thoughts for what "it" is that's beneath the Hill of Seven Lost Gods... several options... but wouldn't mind hearing others.
1) Body of a primordial released by the Batrachi in -31000 DR that was slain by the gods before the twinning of the world.
2) This is one of the prisons that the gods imprisoned primordials in
3) Some impact created the hill and what's beneath it is some kind of metal or mineral strong in magical energy (but before the tearfall)
4) The "bodies" of several gods, killed during the shadow epoch when fighting against the primordials
5) A transplanted energy source delivered to Toril by phasing in from some other plane (including possibly even Mystara)
6) The body of a giant dragon, who served one of the primordials, and which "went to sleep" and merged with the world.
By the way, whereas a lot of these other "sources" appear to be some kind of heavy metal (for instance, Telos producing Felliron... the Athora being some kind of black'ish stone or metal)… my picture of this would be some kind of crystalline structure (with possibly multiple different hues in different areas, or just clear, or blue/green/golden etc...).
I'm also very much digging the idea of picturing a bunch of regular dragons performing some sort of ritual to link themselves with this crystalline structure in order to "fire the weapon" and during this linking it reaches out and bodily changes these dragon's skin to be crystalline in structure. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Aug 2018 16:31:43 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2018 : 07:48:02
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| might be a fragment of that moon Zotha... that's far enough back in the GHOTR that it could be an origin story item. |
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe
204 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2018 : 10:37:29
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| Pregnant Dragon ate some gems one of which was a psionic ioun stone. First batch of Gem dragons where born, appeared to be normal if somewhat sparkly. Flew away when old enough or abandoned as a disappointment. Simple as that, Evolution not Religion. |
Thay Red |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2018 : 11:00:13
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| Considering that gem dragons complete the dragon alignment trifecta and have their own racial god, dismissing gem dragons as aberrants of evolution is odd at best. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2018 : 11:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
We've also collectively posited here that the Jhaamdathi were being bred and/or trained to be a psionically empowered humanoid war force for gem dragons. This can also be somewhat upheld with that GHotR entry for
–349 DR Year of Bold Poachers
The Netherese wizard Saldrinar destroys Kisonraathiisar, the topaz dragon ruler of Westgate [–286], and becomes the city’s first human king.
–349: Kisonraathiisar’s Slow Demise
While Saldrinar’s two-legged ants swarm across my kingdom and slaughter the tribes of dragonkin that I have carefully nurtured into stewards of my demesne, I see Null’s dull claws inexorably crushing the future that I had hoped to create. For millennia, my kind has labored to build kingdoms that might survive the King-Killer’s Baleful Eye. But just as I stood upon the cusp of escaping that curse, my plans were laid low by a scion of those arrogant Netherese fools. This Saldrinar cares not for the work of ages; he seeks only to steal what he cannot build and claim what is not his to own.
Does not follow.
Also, it won't take millennia worth of efforts to "build kingdoms that might survive the King-Killer’s Baleful Eye" if the idea was to simply hand everything to humans. So this must be either more complex, or something else entirely. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2018 : 13:09:09
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Considering that gem dragons complete the dragon alignment trifecta and have their own racial god, dismissing gem dragons as aberrants of evolution is odd at best.
Well, one take on it COULD be that this is when Sardior and his thanes were created. If this item is LIKE (not the same as) the radiance of Glantri and is powerful enough to ascend someone, it could have been the power needed to make Sardior into a god. If Sardior were acting as the "center" in a "circle"/"cooperative" ritual to focus power into a tight beam to destroy the dracorage by destroying the King Killer "Star", his ascension could have even been an accident. If his "Thanes" were helping him perform the focus of OTHER dragons, that may be why they've essentially become immortal but NOT gods.
Actually as well, one of the things about Sardior is that he and his Thanes occupy a flying castle that orbits the world....
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030124a
He makes his home in a huge floating castle, which orbits the world and stays forever in the shadows from the sun. On the nights it can be seen, viewers mistake it for a small red moon.
It could even be interesting if Sardior and his Thanes were on the moon and their castle was "blasted off of it". If this "thing" similar to the radiance/athora of Mystara were a piece of a now destroyed "ice moon"/"ice asteroid" named Zotha, and if there were two groups of dragons... one set in "what will be future westgate"… another composed of the Thanes and Sardior on the moon... they could have been working together to create a "powerful source of energy" on Toril that got "focused" through another empowered item on the moon.... picturing how a laser is focused through a ruby mind you.... but then the "power source" overwhelmed the "focus"... explosion...
But our moon/Selune is supposedly very much round (even though it has Leira's illusion covering it, its not described as missing a large chunk). What if BECAUSE this "artifact" in westgate that we're supposing exists is part of what essentially "forced the twinning of the world".... it is essentially drawing on the power from both worlds (Abeir and Toril)…. and when these dragons sourced the energy and focused it at the moon.... it mirrored into Abeir as well, where a reflection of the moon exists, but there was nothing there to focus it. Thus, the tears of Selune were "ripped" from Abeir's moon and appeared in Toril.
Another factor in this is that sentence in the above that Sardior's flying castle is always in the shadows and out of the sunlight. What if this strange "phasing" is actually a factor of it transferring between various "primes" in that it touches somehow an earlier planar cosmology wherein all primes WERE linked. Perhaps the location even periodically transfers to Abeir.
Finally, just a thought... if they were trying to destroy the "Dracorage"... could the fact that these dragons are now very much neutral have something to do with it? Was there a need to "center" themselves, quiet their minds, focus and calm themselves, so that as they "touched the rage, it did not touch them". Perhaps that was also a big part of how they were changed as gem dragons? Perhaps though, part of why the explosion also happened was because they failed in this state of calm when they touched the source of the "Dracorage"... and it was that moment of doubt, of non-clarity, of anger, that caused the explosion.
By the way, just as it occurs to me that this might be the source of gem dragons... it might also be the source of shadow dragons as well. If this strange reverberation of energy was caused by some dragons who couldn't remain centered, maybe they were filled with the power of shadow? Just a thought. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2018 : 13:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
We've also collectively posited here that the Jhaamdathi were being bred and/or trained to be a psionically empowered humanoid war force for gem dragons. This can also be somewhat upheld with that GHotR entry for
–349 DR Year of Bold Poachers
The Netherese wizard Saldrinar destroys Kisonraathiisar, the topaz dragon ruler of Westgate [–286], and becomes the city’s first human king.
–349: Kisonraathiisar’s Slow Demise
While Saldrinar’s two-legged ants swarm across my kingdom and slaughter the tribes of dragonkin that I have carefully nurtured into stewards of my demesne, I see Null’s dull claws inexorably crushing the future that I had hoped to create. For millennia, my kind has labored to build kingdoms that might survive the King-Killer’s Baleful Eye. But just as I stood upon the cusp of escaping that curse, my plans were laid low by a scion of those arrogant Netherese fools. This Saldrinar cares not for the work of ages; he seeks only to steal what he cannot build and claim what is not his to own.
Does not follow.
Also, it won't take millennia worth of efforts to "build kingdoms that might survive the King-Killer’s Baleful Eye" if the idea was to simply hand everything to humans. So this must be either more complex, or something else entirely.
Who says their plans were to hand everything over to humans. Perhaps they planned to build up a force powerful enough to use the "super weapon" to destroy the King Killer Star again, but they planned to let the using of said weapon also sacrifice them, using their very essence in much the way the raising of a mythal often consumes its creators. Actually, hadn't really considered it, but perhaps even making dragon kin would encourage them to destroy the king killer star, as they might be affected by the rage as well. If the dragons were to drop a hint "as to why their minds are being affected", they might also be able to encourage them to undertake the ritual. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2018 : 13:45:10
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Oh, and one other concept. IF the tears of Selune are actually blasted from the Abeiran copy of the moon and transferred from Toril, perhaps at some point they went BACK to Abeir... and then later they came BACK to Toril. This might help explain the strange entry about the emperor's astronomer seeing the Tears of Selune "pop" into existence 4800 years ago.... or it could be that THIS is when the gem dragons actually attempted to use the artifact (noting that 4800 years ago in the 1370's would have been sometime around -3400 DR and the Jhaamdath Psiocracy would have been around for at least 2 millenia already and Netheril would have been in their infancy but a growing threat). If we did go with this concept, we would definitely have to separate the concept of Sardior from Auppenser, as IF this is when Sardior is created then Auppenser had already been around. It may even be that Auppenser IS somehow this "artifact" or tied to it.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2018 : 14:49:36
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Sardior's an odd one. Other than a throwaway line by Ed about him being worshipped in the Realms (despite not actually being mentioned in any FR product), he hangs about in Greyspace.
I'd say that rather than get involved with Bahamut and Tiamat's little pissing match in the Realms, not to mention his darker sibling's one-sided war against Chronepsis that's only exacerbated by their shared Realms aspect of Null, Sardior just outsources his worship to Auppenser and calls it a day. It's not like dragons are religious, and by staying in Greyspace, Sardior doesn't have to deal with Shar's interest in his portfolio of the night and secrets. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2018 : 15:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Sardior's an odd one. Other than a throwaway line by Ed about him being worshipped in the Realms (despite not actually being mentioned in any FR product), he hangs about in Greyspace.
I'd say that rather than get involved with Bahamut and Tiamat's little pissing match in the Realms, not to mention his darker sibling's one-sided war against Chronepsis that's only exacerbated by their shared Realms aspect of Null, Sardior just outsources his worship to Auppenser and calls it a day. It's not like dragons are religious, and by staying in Greyspace, Sardior doesn't have to deal with Shar's interest in his portfolio of the night and secrets.
He doesn't really have to worry about that, anyway, since they're not in the same pantheon. It'd be a waste of time for Shar to go after his portfolios -- she'd likely spend just as much, if not more, energy getting them as she'd get from having them. It's just not worth it to her. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2018 : 16:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and one other concept. IF the tears of Selune are actually blasted from the Abeiran copy of the moon and transferred from Toril, perhaps at some point they went BACK to Abeir... and then later they came BACK to Toril. This might help explain the strange entry about the emperor's astronomer seeing the Tears of Selune "pop" into existence 4800 years ago.... or it could be that THIS is when the gem dragons actually attempted to use the artifact
Aside of using pointlessly complicated ("we'll call turtles crocodiles and they are all the way down") 4e lore?
This would remove a perfect explanation of why the inhabitants of Selune are so paranoid about Toril and anyone from it.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2018 : 16:48:33
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Sardior's castle moves through the planes too. It is a regular visitor to the Great Caliph of the Djinn's Citadel of Ice and Steel (Secrets of the Lamp, Inner Planes), as well as Jazirian's realm of Uroboros (Planes of Law).
I don't recall anything about Sardior's castle existing solely in Greyspace. Was that in 3/4/5e material?
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2018 : 03:53:30
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| Sardior's official home plane is the Prime. Given that he's just a regular, if powerful dragon in his debut appearance (like his siblings), and that Bahamut and Tiamat are part of the Oeridian pantheon in 3.5e, it's likely that Sardior follows precedent and is himself primarily an Oeridian deity. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2018 : 13:22:02
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| So, does the idea of the interaction with a powerful gem artifact in some kind of collective mind meld during their assault on the King Killer Star, and then it "turning on" the dragon's involved and changing them into gem dragons work for folk? That was the main gist I had in my head. It would in my view make perfect sense for why there would be gem dragons, and it fits in with an already active storyline that's even tied to a gem dragon who may have been trying to find out "where did we come from". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2018 : 14:12:38
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Sardior's an odd one. Other than a throwaway line by Ed about him being worshipped in the Realms (despite not actually being mentioned in any FR product), he hangs about in Greyspace.
I'd say that rather than get involved with Bahamut and Tiamat's little pissing match in the Realms, not to mention his darker sibling's one-sided war against Chronepsis that's only exacerbated by their shared Realms aspect of Null, Sardior just outsources his worship to Auppenser and calls it a day. It's not like dragons are religious, and by staying in Greyspace, Sardior doesn't have to deal with Shar's interest in his portfolio of the night and secrets.
On the idea that Sardior is primarily interested in Greyspace… that may be true NOW... many centuries, even several MILLENIA have passed since this occurrence. It may be that there was a mass exodus of gem dragons into other worlds at some point.
Just to note here... this interaction was either "4800 years ago"... now 4900 years ago (this being based on the Realmspace expansion which has this being when the Tears of Selune appeared)... OR... it was during the last days of the Reign of Dragons (so somewhere around 24 to say 26 thousand years ago) (according to the GHotR entry where Kisonraathiisar is revealing his secret by etching it psychically into his hide). Personally, I'm inclined to option 2, with the Tears of Selune disappearing at some point and then reappearing 4800 years ago.... OR maybe in Kara-Tur their own belief in the Celestial Heaven which is tied to the spirit realm actually prevented them from seeing the Tears of Selune (but this wouldn't fit with the sudden hurricanes, tidal waves, and other things associated with a sudden moon popping into orbit)
THIS from the entry in GHotR
In the desperate hope that another of Asgorath’s children might chance upon my remains and seek what I have found, I now reveal my most precious piece of knowledge: The Hills of the Seven Lost Gods are not what they first seem.Each of the seven rings of standing stones dates back to the last days of the Reign of Dragons, when the elder wyrms sought to reverse what the elves had wrought.
Hmmm, and OH mess.... something else just popped into my head. Seven rings of Standing Stones....
1 Sardior - ruby dragon "god" (originally maybe a Quasideity?)
2 Aleithilithos - amethyst dragon thane
3 Hrodel - crystal dragon thane
4 Smargad - emerald dragon thane
5 Charisma - sapphire dragon thane
6 Tithonnas - topaz dragon thane
7 Seradess - obsidian dragon thane
It kind of fits the concept I was stating that this is where the gem dragons came from. I was picturing the Thanes and Sardior on the moon, and a lot more dragons on Toril at "future westgate". Maybe some dragons didn't survive "the conversion" and that left petrified corpses that have over nearly 24 millenia have become roughly "standing stones" that don't necessarily resemble dragons any longer (and if unpetrified die). Hell, if one digs deeper into this shell of standing stone, maybe one finds a large gemstone matching a type of gem dragon (ruby, emerald, etc...).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Origins of Gem Dragons & Psionics in the realms
