| Author |
 Topic  |
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jul 2018 : 22:15:26
|
yeah, a lot of the earlier versions too had this clause of "insta-kill with a blessed crossbow bolt". So, basically IF you knew you were going up against a rakshasa, then it wasn't a big deal to have them ignore your spells when you insta-kill them as a 1st level wizard with a crossbow and true strike :-) That's gone. I wouldn't mind some kind of homage to that in 5e, such as if they're killed with a blessed weapon on the material plane, they don't reform in hell for an extra century or something similar like maybe they're true dead... but it would only be after you wear them down and use that for the final blow that kills them.
Personally, given that casters get so few spells to cast in 5e, that 6th level thing does make Rakshasa particularly formidable for wizards in 5e. I had not factored that into some of the stuff I'd been considering for Katashaka. Yes, that rakshasa led city versus my red wizards in the Tharch of New Eltabbar just got even more interesting to me. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
 |
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2018 : 22:46:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
yeah, a lot of the earlier versions too had this clause of "insta-kill with a blessed crossbow bolt". So, basically IF you knew you were going up against a rakshasa, then it wasn't a big deal to have them ignore your spells when you insta-kill them as a 1st level wizard with a crossbow and true strike :-) That's gone. I wouldn't mind some kind of homage to that in 5e, such as if they're killed with a blessed weapon on the material plane, they don't reform in hell for an extra century or something similar like maybe they're true dead... but it would only be after you wear them down and use that for the final blow that kills them.
I'm totally keeping that 'blessed bolt' weakness, though, as I noted earlier, I can't imagine how it would only apply to crossbow bolts. Rakshasa myths from India don't include any such thing, because crossbows weren't used in India. Bows and arrows, however, are the most honourable weapons in Indian mythology, the arms of a king.
So, a blessed arrow (can be a bolt designed like an arrow), that seems more thematically appropriate. I've decided that such projectiles will bypass the natural armor of a rakshasa, the DR 15 that rakshasa have against anything that is not magical and do x4 full damage, instead of the lesser damage that magical items of less than +3 do to my rakshasa (in GURPS terms, Rakshasa have higher Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction against physical attacks that aren't enchanted enough). Basically, blessed arrows or bolts will hit the rakshasa as if he was a normal human and do x4 damage.
While such blessed projectiles are still stuck inside the rakshasa, he'll also suffer damage per turn (Weakness, Rare (Blessed Arrows) (Variable -40%; Quickened 6 +120%); 4d per second, down to 2d from a small wound in a limb, up to 8d for a deep vitals wound), enough, in GURPS terms, so that he'll die in very short order. Even if the initial damage were minimal, an average rakshasa would last only about five to six seconds with a blessed arrow or bolt in its flesh, which means that it needs to remove it almost instantly, which is hard to do in combat (or at any time, if stunned with an arrow through the guts).
Any divinely blessed or Good weapon will be able to hit the rakshasa and do full damage, even if it's not a +3 magical weapon. That's nowhere near the autoslay level of blessed arrows, meaning that anyone who is not an awesome superhero, but who wants to fight a rakshasa, has pretty much got to identify the creature and make use of its weakness to be able to kill it.
Obviously, rakshasa both hate and fear archers and crossbowmen, at least those who are paladins or who fight on behalf of Good, crusading churches, and might thus have blessed arrows or bolts. And they like to make their homes in civilised cities, where people are neither expected nor allowed to walk around with warbows or military crossbows. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 27 Jul 2018 23:14:23 |
|
|
|
LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 06:05:09
|
| Spell immunity in 3.5e is basically being immune to any spell that allows for spell resistance. I guess conjurers sit back and laugh while evokers can go sulk in the corner, seeing as how the orb line of spells are SR: No. |
|
|
|
Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 09:01:29
|
In Hinduism, their origin lie with the Yaksha, a race of semi divine dwarves and nature spirits. I think they were described as night spirits someplace as well:
https://intothewonder.wordpress.com/tag/yaksha/
I do not think the Yaksha is a cognate of the Nordic dwarf, but seems similar. So, a simple explanation would be to make rakshasas originate in corrupt Deva angels, turning to an new race.
In hindu mythology, these 'races' is a bit ambiguous, and can cross breed. Think there is a hindu epic character who is 1/4 Deva, 1/4 Asura, 1/4 yaksha and 1/4 rakshasa.
The "Asura" is a cognate to "Aesir", the "war in heaven" in Norse mythos is descended from same mythos as the Hindu one is, most likely the proto Indo European...
To follow this concept, I'm tempted to make the Rakshasa connected with the Dawn War, and the Primordials, as corrupted/fallen servants. |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 11:40:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Spell immunity in 3.5e is basically being immune to any spell that allows for spell resistance. I guess conjurers sit back and laugh while evokers can go sulk in the corner, seeing as how the orb line of spells are SR: No.
Do you mean Orb of Acic and Orb of Fire from Completely Arcane, reprinted in the Spell Compendium?
In theory, those are clever spells. Summoning acid or fire that is not magical in nature and using magic merely to deliver it to the target would, indeed, bypass Spell Resistance and immunity to spells below a certain level.
My problem with the spells is that as written, the acid and fire still seems to be pretty darn magical. As the Caster Level of those who gain access to these spells will be 7th to 8th level, that means that the acid or fire does 7d6 to 8d6. Instantaneously. And when cast by a more powerful caster, it goes all the way up to 15d6.
That's far more than any normal kind of non-magical acid or fire that can fit into a 3 inch sphere would ever do, even if it was under considerable pressure (or in vacuum). Well, unless the pressure or lack thereof was so extreme that the fire turned to plasma and/or there was an explosion/implosion when the orb collapsed. In which case the acid or fire effects aren't the real point of the spell and the real effects are caused by the orb, which causes bludgeoning damage from the explosion.
Technically, I guess that the 'fire' could be a piece of the sun and still be non-magical, but such a small piece couldn't sustain the nuclear reaction and you'd be left with an orb full of a small quantity of rapidly cooling superheated gas. I don't actually have numbers for how dangerous that would be, but intuitively, it doesn't feel plain stupid to assume that it might indeed be destructive to the tune of 7d6 to 15d6 to the target as it flashes out.
The acid is more problematic, in that there really aren't any real acids that dissolve metal armour on a second-by-second timescale. Nor do they usually cause death within a six second timeframe, at least not from massive physical trauma. The 'instant damage' acids of RPGs are basically magic already. Which is usually fine, but not when trying to argue that the acid should ignore magic resistance because it isn't magical. If we want that effect, we should probably use realistic acid effects.
Acid may well cause toxic reactions and/or do sufficient damage to the respiratory system to lead to eventual death, but it will do this over the period of minutes. I'd have to consult some GURPS experts who have Chemistry degrees to work out the maximum effects of the volume of a 3-inch orb filled with a realistic strong acid, but it's not going to be just instant damage that can destroy a human body, and then nothing more. If it can destroy a human body, which I doubt, it would at least be over time. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 28 Jul 2018 11:41:08 |
|
|
|
LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 11:41:35
|
Not necessarily. Yaksha are in the service of the deity Kubera (who's actually Ravana's half-brother), but they are themselves not rakshasa, who have a different origin entirely. They're not divine servants (the only ones they respect are the Vedic Trinity, Shiva especially), and frankly the trend of tying everything to devil/demon/celestial is somewhat exhausting.
It's also incredibly jarring to consider rakshasa as 'corrupt angels' considering their history of kicking in divine teeth. Indrajit beat the snot out of Indra and was about to kill him when Brahma intervened and offered him a divine boon in exchange for the other deity's life.
|
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 16:08:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Spell immunity in 3.5e is basically being immune to any spell that allows for spell resistance. I guess conjurers sit back and laugh while evokers can go sulk in the corner, seeing as how the orb line of spells are SR: No.
Do you mean Orb of Acic and Orb of Fire from Completely Arcane, reprinted in the Spell Compendium?
In theory, those are clever spells. Summoning acid or fire that is not magical in nature and using magic merely to deliver it to the target would, indeed, bypass Spell Resistance and immunity to spells below a certain level.
My problem with the spells is that as written, the acid and fire still seems to be pretty darn magical. As the Caster Level of those who gain access to these spells will be 7th to 8th level, that means that the acid or fire does 7d6 to 8d6. Instantaneously. And when cast by a more powerful caster, it goes all the way up to 15d6.
That's far more than any normal kind of non-magical acid or fire that can fit into a 3 inch sphere would ever do, even if it was under considerable pressure (or in vacuum). Well, unless the pressure or lack thereof was so extreme that the fire turned to plasma and/or there was an explosion/implosion when the orb collapsed. In which case the acid or fire effects aren't the real point of the spell and the real effects are caused by the orb, which causes bludgeoning damage from the explosion.
Technically, I guess that the 'fire' could be a piece of the sun and still be non-magical, but such a small piece couldn't sustain the nuclear reaction and you'd be left with an orb full of a small quantity of rapidly cooling superheated gas. I don't actually have numbers for how dangerous that would be, but intuitively, it doesn't feel plain stupid to assume that it might indeed be destructive to the tune of 7d6 to 15d6 to the target as it flashes out.
The acid is more problematic, in that there really aren't any real acids that dissolve metal armour on a second-by-second timescale. Nor do they usually cause death within a six second timeframe, at least not from massive physical trauma. The 'instant damage' acids of RPGs are basically magic already. Which is usually fine, but not when trying to argue that the acid should ignore magic resistance because it isn't magical. If we want that effect, we should probably use realistic acid effects.
Acid may well cause toxic reactions and/or do sufficient damage to the respiratory system to lead to eventual death, but it will do this over the period of minutes. I'd have to consult some GURPS experts who have Chemistry degrees to work out the maximum effects of the volume of a 3-inch orb filled with a realistic strong acid, but it's not going to be just instant damage that can destroy a human body, and then nothing more. If it can destroy a human body, which I doubt, it would at least be over time.
I only say this because you seem to be a bit like me and favor a bit more realism over balance, even if it means that you gain balance through a bit more in-depth rules instead. Don't try to think through the mechanics of 3.5e spell damage. It will make you go crazy. Nothing used to cheese me off more than the concept that a sonic spell and a fire spell of the same level did the same damage. Seriously, fire spells should be triple the damage, but a lot easier to resist if you have the proper preparations, or are of certain races (fiery creatures, fiends, etc...). Sonic should do pitiful damage, but be hard as hell to block, similar to other force type effects. All I could picture was parties going through dungeons sounding like massive thunderbursts. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 16:09:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Spell immunity in 3.5e is basically being immune to any spell that allows for spell resistance. I guess conjurers sit back and laugh while evokers can go sulk in the corner, seeing as how the orb line of spells are SR: No.
Do you mean Orb of Acic and Orb of Fire from Completely Arcane, reprinted in the Spell Compendium?
In theory, those are clever spells. Summoning acid or fire that is not magical in nature and using magic merely to deliver it to the target would, indeed, bypass Spell Resistance and immunity to spells below a certain level.
My problem with the spells is that as written, the acid and fire still seems to be pretty darn magical. As the Caster Level of those who gain access to these spells will be 7th to 8th level, that means that the acid or fire does 7d6 to 8d6. Instantaneously. And when cast by a more powerful caster, it goes all the way up to 15d6.
That's far more than any normal kind of non-magical acid or fire that can fit into a 3 inch sphere would ever do, even if it was under considerable pressure (or in vacuum). Well, unless the pressure or lack thereof was so extreme that the fire turned to plasma and/or there was an explosion/implosion when the orb collapsed. In which case the acid or fire effects aren't the real point of the spell and the real effects are caused by the orb, which causes bludgeoning damage from the explosion.
Technically, I guess that the 'fire' could be a piece of the sun and still be non-magical, but such a small piece couldn't sustain the nuclear reaction and you'd be left with an orb full of a small quantity of rapidly cooling superheated gas. I don't actually have numbers for how dangerous that would be, but intuitively, it doesn't feel plain stupid to assume that it might indeed be destructive to the tune of 7d6 to 15d6 to the target as it flashes out.
The acid is more problematic, in that there really aren't any real acids that dissolve metal armour on a second-by-second timescale. Nor do they usually cause death within a six second timeframe, at least not from massive physical trauma. The 'instant damage' acids of RPGs are basically magic already. Which is usually fine, but not when trying to argue that the acid should ignore magic resistance because it isn't magical. If we want that effect, we should probably use realistic acid effects.
Acid may well cause toxic reactions and/or do sufficient damage to the respiratory system to lead to eventual death, but it will do this over the period of minutes. I'd have to consult some GURPS experts who have Chemistry degrees to work out the maximum effects of the volume of a 3-inch orb filled with a realistic strong acid, but it's not going to be just instant damage that can destroy a human body, and then nothing more. If it can destroy a human body, which I doubt, it would at least be over time.
I only say this because you seem to be a bit like me and favor a bit more realism over balance, even if it means that you gain balance through a bit more in-depth rules instead. Don't try to think through the mechanics of 3.5e spell damage. It will make you go crazy. Nothing used to cheese me off more than the concept that a sonic spell and a fire spell of the same level did the same damage. Seriously, fire spells should be triple the damage, but a lot easier to resist if you have the proper preparations, or are of certain races (fiery creatures, fiends, etc...). Sonic should do pitiful damage, but be hard as hell to block, similar to other force type effects. All I could picture was parties going through dungeons sounding like massive thunderbursts. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 17:01:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I only say this because you seem to be a bit like me and favor a bit more realism over balance, even if it means that you gain balance through a bit more in-depth rules instead. Don't try to think through the mechanics of 3.5e spell damage. It will make you go crazy. Nothing used to cheese me off more than the concept that a sonic spell and a fire spell of the same level did the same damage. Seriously, fire spells should be triple the damage, but a lot easier to resist if you have the proper preparations, or are of certain races (fiery creatures, fiends, etc...). Sonic should do pitiful damage, but be hard as hell to block, similar to other force type effects. All I could picture was parties going through dungeons sounding like massive thunderbursts.
Remember, I'm not running D&D 3.5 or any other edition. I can use spells that exist in Realmslore, but I'm not bound by rules oddities. If a given spell is much more powerful than another, which is of the same level in D&D, then it doesn't have to cost the same to cast in my game. Even if I'll retain something like a spell level, in that spellcasters must have a certain level of power before learning certain spells, each die of damage for spells has an energy cost in GURPS and that cost will be larger for more 'useful' types of damage.
That being said, I'm not sure what 'sonic' as a type of damage means in a realistic context, especially not when distinguished from 'force'. Real-world sonic weapons cause disorientation, nausea, discomfort or pain. They don't tear physical structures or bodies apart and if they did, that would just be through concussion, in exactly the same way as any other 'force'.
Not to mention that there is no non-magical way that sound waves contained in an 'Orb of Sound' could somehow be powerful enough to kill a person and yet not do anything to people standing next to them. I'll accept sonic spells as 'magic', but when the central conceit of a spell is that it conjures entirely natural and non-magical matter or energy, so that Spell Resistance doesn't matter against the effects, those effects need to follow the rules of physics.
So, sure, I'll allow an 'Orb of Sound' or 'Orb of Force' spells, but those release magical effects and are thus affected by Spell Resistance or the spell immunity of rakshasa.
Well, I guess that technically, if they released a huge noise, they might exist as Conjuration spells that ignore Spell Resistance and could be the same spell, but that would inevitably affect more than one target. Any sound loud enough to cause physical damage will probably stun, disorient and deafen people in a much larger area around it. At any rate, as written, or anything close to it, 'Orb of Force' and 'Orb of Sound' can't work.
'Orb of Acid' can, in theory, work, but it will probably do its damage over some time, at minimum several seconds, and probably do less physical damage than the D&D spell. But it might well have toxic side-effects and cause respiratory damage, making it almost as dangerous to living foes.
I'm working on figuring how an 'Orb of Fire' would work. First instinct is that it might well work well enough, but I'm getting advice to figure out what kind of side-effects we might expect.
The kicker is the low volume of the orb, as there isn't much space for combustible materials and gasses in 0.23 L of volume, so they'd have to be under considerable pressure and I'm concerned that it might be difficult or impossible to get just burning to one target, as at a certain point, we'd expect an explosion. Basically, there is going to be a cap on how much damage that little volume of flame can do in an instant before it stops being 'fire' and becomes something else.
'Orb of Cold', of course, won't work that like that. 0.23 L of something at an absolute zero might be hazardous, but the mechanics of heat transfer mean that the cold isn't going to kill something the size of a human instantaneously. I'm going to look into what kind of material should be in the orb and how it would react when it suddenly came into a room temperature atmosphere.
'Orb of Electricity' is probably easiest to stat. It would work like a massive electric shock, i.e. it has a lot of side-effects that are unhealthy for humans. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 28 Jul 2018 17:38:07 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 17:47:57
|
| Yep, like I said, don't try to equate any sanity to the energy damages of 3.5e... it'll make you go crazy. Careful now man, I can already see the wheels a-spinning, as we're basically on the same page. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 20:17:08
|
Cheesy way to explain the line of "Orbs" spells as they are, since they're conjuration, is that actually the orb is a really tin containment sphere for stuff the caster takes from the corresponding elemental/paralemental/whatever plane.
So the stuff thrown at people is real (no SR, it's like a conjured creature biting/mauling them) but it affects only one target because as soon as the containment field is shattered (on contact with the target) the conjured matter very quickly goes back to its home plane.
So ultra high sonic waves, explosions, numbing cold, acid fumes and whatever side effect we might expect are not there a split second after the sphere has hit its target and only the target suffers the damage of the exposure to the excruciating flames of the Plane of Fire or the incomprehensibly high dissolving power of the stuff from which the paraelemental Plane of Acid is made.
I like realism too but after all ... it's magic. |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 21:30:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Cheesy way to explain the line of "Orbs" spells as they are, since they're conjuration, is that actually the orb is a really tin containment sphere for stuff the caster takes from the corresponding elemental/paralemental/whatever plane.
So the stuff thrown at people is real (no SR, it's like a conjured creature biting/mauling them) but it affects only one target because as soon as the containment field is shattered (on contact with the target) the conjured matter very quickly goes back to its home plane.
So ultra high sonic waves, explosions, numbing cold, acid fumes and whatever side effect we might expect are not there a split second after the sphere has hit its target and only the target suffers the damage of the exposure to the excruciating flames of the Plane of Fire or the incomprehensibly high dissolving power of the stuff from which the paraelemental Plane of Acid is made.
I like realism too but after all ... it's magic.
Fair enough, but if something is an inherently magical substance with no real counterpart in actual physics, requiring supernatural power merely to exist, I fail to see how it would bypass spell resistance any more than flames created with Fireball.
It seems to me for the Orb spells to be metaphysically justified in ignoring a rakshasa's spell immunity and Spell Resistance, they really need to use a completely non-magical substance as the means of attack, with magic only used to contain and direct it. After the orb vanishes, what is in it has to behave 100% according to real physics, otherwise it's a just magical attack like ordinary spells are.
I'll accept that even in the absence of magic, flames from the Elemental Plane of Fire (in real terms, combustibles and gasses in the proccess of oxydization) or a discharge of electricity from the Quasi-elemental Plane of Lightning might still be dangerous, but the same doesn't hold for the Para-elemental Plane of Ice.
0,23 L of some material at or near absolute zero probably aren't going to kill a person instantly without magic. The idea of 'cold' as a form of attack just falls apart without magic. The temperature difference between a person and absolute zero is just so much lower than the difference between a person and the inside of a blast furnace.
And is there even a Para- or Quasi-Elemental Plane of Sound? |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 28 Jul 2018 21:34:39 |
|
|
|
LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2018 : 05:02:09
|
You're trying to apply real-world science and logic to a setting where skeletons can walk and talk without vocal chords and muscles, and where the existence of souls and the concepts of good, evil, law and chaos are objective facts.
Also, in addition to the orb spells, there's flame arrow, evard's black tentacles and acid fog. Pathfinder has even more ways to ruin a magic-immune monster's day (create pit). Or Doom Scarabs from PH2, which deals damage (no SR) and only checks for SR for the hp-drain component of the spell. Or
Or just buff up the party's meatshield and send him into the fray. |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2018 : 05:45:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
You're trying to apply real-world science and logic to a setting where skeletons can walk and talk without vocal chords and muscles, and where the existence of souls and the concepts of good, evil, law and chaos are objective facts.
Yes.
Magic can break the laws of physics. This is established. What magical cannot do, however, is gain the benefits of not being a magical spell, and thus be able to ignore SR and immunity to spells below a certain level, as with the rakshasa, while still clearly being a magical effect.
I'm open to spells that use magical means to conjure or move around an entirely natural and non-magical material allowing the caster to bypass such magical protections. But that has to be at the cost of this particular hazardous material actually being restricted by physics.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Also, in addition to the orb spells, there's flame arrow, evard's black tentacles and acid fog. Pathfinder has even more ways to ruin a magic-immune monster's day (create pit). Or Doom Scarabs from PH2, which deals damage (no SR) and only checks for SR for the hp-drain component of the spell. Or
Or just buff up the party's meatshield and send him into the fray.
Flame Arrows and Acid Fog have durations and behave in blatantly magical ways. Fire doesn't burn without fuel and acid reacts to substances, meaning that acid turns into other things during the reaction. I wouldn't allow either spell to bypass the spell immunity of rakshasa and, frankly, I don't think they ought to bypass SR.
Using magic to conjure acid into the atmosphere, that then works normally by physical laws (more likely causing respiratory failure or toxic reactions than corroding flesh, clothes or armour on a combat useful time-scale), or setting arrows aflame with magic, which quickly burns them up, those would be the kind of spells that could bypass SR and rakshasa spell immunity. But a real flaming arrow does no more injury than a regular arrow, it just has a chance of setting very combustible objects on fire.
I'm on the fence about Evard's Black Tentacles, as I think that physical attacks by summoned creatures should absolutely bypass both SR and rakshasa spell immunity, but I'm not sure the tentacles qualify. I might default to the same solution as for the Doom Scarabs, i.e. the physical effects bypass them, but not magical special effects.
Obviously, using magic to enhance the capabilities of oneself and allies is one of the most sensible ways to avoid the special magical protections of one's foes. That's probably what rakshasa do on the rare occasions that they must directly confront each other. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 29 Jul 2018 05:48:20 |
|
|
|
LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2018 : 06:58:05
|
Presumably, that's why most acid spells and the orb line of spells are Conjuration, not Evocation. You're not creating orbs of fire/acid/force/ice cream, you're effectively a conduit to the elemental plane in question (I guess acid would hail from the QEP of ooze). As to why it scales with caster level, I'd assume that reflects the potency and amount of the effect being conjured, from a small bead to a streaking orb (that's just conjecture, mind you).
I mean, there's a spell that reduces spell resistance (Spell Vulnerability), so I don't exactly know how the devs rule SR. |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2018 : 17:20:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Presumably, that's why most acid spells and the orb line of spells are Conjuration, not Evocation. You're not creating orbs of fire/acid/force/ice cream, you're effectively a conduit to the elemental plane in question (I guess acid would hail from the QEP of ooze). As to why it scales with caster level, I'd assume that reflects the potency and amount of the effect being conjured, from a small bead to a streaking orb (that's just conjecture, mind you).
My problem is that D&D acid works like comic book or bad movie acid, not like real acid, which is more likely to kill from respiratory damage or toxic effects, and absolutely doesn't affect other things, like hypothetical constructs or magically animated dead bodies, just as well as living, breathing animals.
I'm fine with it as long as I can justify it as not being real acid, but actually a magical effect that people in D&D-land imagine is acid, but that leads to me being hesitant to state suddenly that this particular magical effect somehow ignores Spell Resistance and immunity to spells.
Basically, in my campaigns, D&D acid is an alchemical construct that requires magic to work, just like smokepowder (but for a different reason). Conjuring it is a spell effect, just as conjuring magical fire.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I mean, there's a spell that reduces spell resistance (Spell Vulnerability), so I don't exactly know how the devs rule SR.
That's using specialised magic to counter an innate kind of magical protection, so it's conceptually fine with me. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 01:20:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
And is there even a Para- or Quasi-Elemental Plane of Sound?
Yeah, I like to bring this up when I hear people call wu-jen stupid because their idea of the elements includes metal and wood, but not air. Is there some kind of Quasi-elemental plane of Thunder that crosses a "Plane of Cacophony" with the "Plane of Air"? Is the Feywild actually tied with the "Plane of Wood", thus explaining the many living plant beings? There may be dozens of inner planes that we simply haven't discovered the mysteries of yet. Now, do I like these concepts I just threw out? No. But it doesn't mean they're wrong.
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 02:39:07
|
If there is a major concentration of rakshasa in the Scarlet Jungle in the Yehimals, northeast of Ulgarth, as well as smaller groups in areas near where that jungle once reached, like the Forest of Ajmer, the Dustwall and Veldorn, I wonder what impact this has had on the humans of Ulgarth and the Shining Lands.
Are there cults and secret societies of people who have been manipulated by rakshasa for generations?
Considering that all rakshasa view themselves as nobles, like to be waited on or fawned over and consider physical conflict beneath them, it would make sense for them to cultivate families of loyal retainers.
And I really feel that famatical cultists inspired by the worst pulp and Hollywood anthropology on Thugee cultists would be cool. They'd see rakshasa as direct representatives of the Gods... or maybe even as divine themselves. In their worldview, the servants who obeyed unquestionanly and were willing to sacrifice everything for their rakshasa masters would eventually be reborn as rakshasa.
Thoughts?
Suggestions for names of the cult? |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 16:46:17
|
Just something to throw out there for some possibilities.... I wouldn't be surprised if the cult of Kiga down in Kadarasto (its from Ruined Kingdoms for Al-Qadim where Nog and Kadar were) didn't possess a sizable number of Naztharune Rakshasa. They have a focus on assassination, shadows, are panther headed, etc... Maybe these Rakshasa led some wereleopards who also served them, since the Cult of Kiga is also served by wereleopards.
From Al-Qadim's Ruined Kingdoms boxes set for 2e
"Kiga, goddess of the hunt and of the kill, was depicted as a mysterious, sometimes sinister, panther-headed deity. A predatory goddess, Kiga was venerated by those who hunted for necessity or for personal amusement. Today, the worship of Kiga has been perverted into ritual murder by her (thankfully) few lycanthropic followers, based in Kadarasto."
"Claws of the Shadow: Favorite weapons of the cult of Kiga, these bagh nagh vary in enchantment from +1 to +3. They are typically found as a matched pair. If both claws are worn,
they also allow the bearer to assume shadow form for up to one turn per level of the wearer, once/day (800 XP per plus)."
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 30 Jul 2018 17:49:20 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 17:44:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just something to throw out there for some possibilities.... I wouldn't be surprised if the cult of Kiga down in Kadarasto (its from Ruined Kingdoms for Al-Qadim where Nog and Kadar were) didn't possess a sizable number of Naztharune Rakshasa.
I'll grant that there is a connection to rakshasa in this cult, but I view the connection as working the other way. The rakshasa take advantage of the fact that the human cultists believe them to be emissaries or representatives of their deities, but are not themselves part of these human cults.
Any rakshasa who actually worshipped human (or demihuman, for that matter) gods would be an outcast from their society and probably hunted down. It's perfectly fine to set up a cult in the name of fake gods (or even real ones, as long as the doctrine and religious activities are twisted to benefit the rakshasa), but it would never do to actually believe.
The gods are evil frauds who've seized almost all power in the multiverse and when Ravana tried to respectfully gain just a little of it, he was slapped down, killed by mortal assassins in the service of hypocrite gods and his reincarnated form imprisoned with divine power. Ravana is the rightful Lord of Creation and it is the duty of all rakshasa to offer him their worship, just as it is the birthright of all rakshasa to rule over the lesser races, assuming they have the intelligence, guile, willpower and magical might to seize their birthright.
If the cult of Kiga were actually in possession of rakshasa, even such petty rakshasa as the Naztharune, it would be an intolerable provocation and insult. That sort of thing could only be allowed to pass if the true rulers of the cult of Kiga were, in fact, rakshasa themselves. Naztharune rakshasa are, indeed, born to serve, rather than rule, but they are born to serve their betters, not such infinite inferiors as humans or even cursed humans, like lycanthropes.
That being said, cults being what they are, it's entirely possible that there exist splinter cults of Kiga, one of which is manipulated by secret rakshasa lords to be used as disposable mortal servants and another of which is ruled by humans and provides a sanctuary for rogue Naztharune rakshasa who have been marked for death by orthodox rakshasa society. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 30 Jul 2018 17:49:57 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 18:03:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just something to throw out there for some possibilities.... I wouldn't be surprised if the cult of Kiga down in Kadarasto (its from Ruined Kingdoms for Al-Qadim where Nog and Kadar were) didn't possess a sizable number of Naztharune Rakshasa.
I'll grant that there is a connection to rakshasa in this cult, but I view the connection as working the other way. The rakshasa take advantage of the fact that the human cultists believe them to be emissaries or representatives of their deities, but are not themselves part of these human cults.
Any rakshasa who actually worshipped human (or demihuman, for that matter) gods would be an outcast from their society and probably hunted down. It's perfectly fine to set up a cult in the name of fake gods (or even real ones, as long as the doctrine and religious activities are twisted to benefit the rakshasa), but it would never do to actually believe.
The gods are evil frauds who've seized almost all power in the multiverse and when Ravana tried to respectfully gain just a little of it, he was slapped down, killed by mortal assassins in the service of hypocrite gods and his reincarnated form imprisoned with divine power. Ravana is the rightful Lord of Creation and it is the duty of all rakshasa to offer him their worship, just as it is the birthright of all rakshasa to rule over the lesser races, assuming they have the intelligence, guile, willpower and magical might to seize their birthright.
If the cult of Kiga were actually in possession of rakshasa, even such petty rakshasa as the Naztharune, it would be an intolerable provocation and insult. That sort of thing could only be allowed to pass if the true rulers of the cult of Kiga were, in fact, rakshasa themselves. Naztharune rakshasa are, indeed, born to serve, rather than rule, but they are born to serve their betters, not such infinite inferiors as humans or even cursed humans, like lycanthropes.
That being said, cults being what they are, it's entirely possible that there exist splinter cults of Kiga, one of which is manipulated by secret rakshasa lords to be used as disposable mortal servants and another of which is ruled by humans and provides a sanctuary for rogue Naztharune rakshasa who have been marked for death by orthodox rakshasa society.
Actually, I'm seeing it more like a powerful Naztharune Rakshasa with say class levels portrayed themselves AS a goddess possibly (and maybe even had some kind of divine power). This Rakshasa actually re-awakened the dead goddess. Worship of this goddess in ruined kingdoms has fallen off severely, such that she's little known outside of Nog and Kadar.
Personally, a take on this that I MAY use is that this Rakshasa and many of her followers fled to Katashaka after the humans of Nog and Kadar forced them out. She eventually attracted the attention of the actual Kiga, such that during the Time of Troubles, this Rakshasa became possessed by the avatar of Kiga the Predator. After the end of the Time of Troubles, maybe the goddess never gave the body back, and she's been entrapped in "manifestation" / "avatar" form on Toril ever since. I'm sticking a city in Katashaka that I'm calling Latoombe, City of Tricksters, and I'm having it led by Rakshasa rulers.
Since a lot of the concepts I've been doing for what happened while Katashaka was in Abeir revolves around the concept of many gods being "earthbound" to fend off the Primordials of Abeir, this could work for me. I'm also hoping to use Kiga as a goddess that comes back to Faerun and whose worship is spread, so the story would be that while in Abeir, she would have been able to finally escape the body of the Rakshasa (or the Rakshasa ascended... something along those lines). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 18:26:26
|
Hmmm, and actually... working through the storyline I was developing above.... maybe a powerful Naztharune Rakshasa from Katashaka in the city of Latoombe, City of Tricksters, discovers the idea of Kiga in Zakhara because maybe the worship of Kiga had migrated FROM Katashaka originally. She comes up with the idea of impersonating the goddess. She goes to Zakhara. She gets a group of wereleopards to serve her and then the Time of Troubles happens. The rakshasa is taken over. The "goddess" leaves to return back to Katashaka to uncover some ancient relic of her former power. Something happens when she's in Katashaka. She's entrapped. Spellplague happens. She's freed, but Katashaka is now in Abeir.
Now, what I "do" with the gods while they're in Abeir is actually have them take over multiple living followers until they gain enough power to become more than a "manifestation" / "lesser avatar" by gathering worshippers in Abeir. In this instance, I want to introduce the worship of Kiga the Predator to the Crintri, drow, wemics, and human Shaaryan and Arkaiun ethnicities down in the Shaar area which I'm calling the Tharch of Peleveran. I'm having Sessifex Hazm'cri, one of the Crintri daughters of Queen Hasifir Hazm'cri of Dambrath, turn away from the worship of Loviatar while in Abeir and turn to Kiga the Predator. Thus, I setup the worship of Kiga the Predator in the Shaar by a powerful Crintri and her followers against the Malar worshipping males of Dambrath who took over the homeland of said Crintri. It might be that at some point during the time that they were on Abeir, Sessifex may have housed the spirit of Kiga to defend the people of Peleveran against "made up threat X".
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 30 Jul 2018 18:53:24 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 18:55:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, and actually... working through the storyline I was developing above.... maybe a powerful Naztharune Rakshasa from Katashaka in the city of Latoombe, City of Tricksters, discovers the idea of Kiga in Zakhara because maybe the worship of Kiga had migrated FROM Katashaka originally. She comes up with the idea of impersonating the goddess. She goes to Zakhara. She gets a group of wereleopards to serve her and then the Time of Troubles happens. The rakshasa is taken over. The "goddess" leaves to return back to Katashaka to uncover some ancient relic of her former power. Something happens when she's in Katashaka. She's entrapped. Spellplague happens. She's freed, but Katashaka is now in Abeir.
Note that Naztharune rakshasa are, in rakshasa terms, crippled. They can't cast spells.
Nothing in the same rules prevents Naztharune rakshasa from taking spellcaster levels, but I'd consider that cheesy. A Naztharune rakshasa who casts spells isn't a Naztharune rakshasa, it's a noble rakshasa (i.e. the normal version) who just happens to look like their magically-crippled, commoner cousins.
The appearance of rakshasa is probably the least important part of them. What distinguishes these 'sub-races' are 1) powerful magic, innate link to death magic and negative energy (Ak'Chazar), 2) lack of spellcasting, with 2a) fighting skill (Zakya), 2b) innate magical tricks derived from blade magic linked to their shapeshifting (Naityan) and 2c) great stealth and minor link to shadow (Naztharune). |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 30 Jul 2018 18:56:27 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 19:17:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, and actually... working through the storyline I was developing above.... maybe a powerful Naztharune Rakshasa from Katashaka in the city of Latoombe, City of Tricksters, discovers the idea of Kiga in Zakhara because maybe the worship of Kiga had migrated FROM Katashaka originally. She comes up with the idea of impersonating the goddess. She goes to Zakhara. She gets a group of wereleopards to serve her and then the Time of Troubles happens. The rakshasa is taken over. The "goddess" leaves to return back to Katashaka to uncover some ancient relic of her former power. Something happens when she's in Katashaka. She's entrapped. Spellplague happens. She's freed, but Katashaka is now in Abeir.
Note that Naztharune rakshasa are, in rakshasa terms, crippled. They can't cast spells.
Nothing in the same rules prevents Naztharune rakshasa from taking spellcaster levels, but I'd consider that cheesy. A Naztharune rakshasa who casts spells isn't a Naztharune rakshasa, it's a noble rakshasa (i.e. the normal version) who just happens to look like their magically-crippled, commoner cousins.
The appearance of rakshasa is probably the least important part of them. What distinguishes these 'sub-races' are 1) powerful magic, innate link to death magic and negative energy (Ak'Chazar), 2) lack of spellcasting, with 2a) fighting skill (Zakya), 2b) innate magical tricks derived from blade magic linked to their shapeshifting (Naityan) and 2c) great stealth and minor link to shadow (Naztharune).
The appearance is of little concern. It DOES however very easily match up to the imagery of Kiga presented in Ruined Kingdoms (panther headed AND a goddess of hunting turned to goddess of murder).
So, as far as class levels go for said Rakshasa, I agree having them go wizard or sorcerer or cleric, etc... is a bad idea. However, having them go beguiler, spellthief, or arcane trickster (or in 5e, arcane trickster version of rogue), these all make perfect sense to me for this style of character. My personal favorite idea in this instance would be beguiler (the cloaked casting with the rakshasa's hide in plain sight are a great combo), but also maybe some levels in assassin or rogue. Then going arcane trickster. That being said, I'd be writing it up for 5e.
In Rakshasa society though, I wouldn't necessarily consider them cripples. Someone that can hide in plain sight and kill you by stabbing you in the back isn't a cripple. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 19:17:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, and actually... working through the storyline I was developing above.... maybe a powerful Naztharune Rakshasa from Katashaka in the city of Latoombe, City of Tricksters, discovers the idea of Kiga in Zakhara because maybe the worship of Kiga had migrated FROM Katashaka originally. She comes up with the idea of impersonating the goddess. She goes to Zakhara. She gets a group of wereleopards to serve her and then the Time of Troubles happens. The rakshasa is taken over. The "goddess" leaves to return back to Katashaka to uncover some ancient relic of her former power. Something happens when she's in Katashaka. She's entrapped. Spellplague happens. She's freed, but Katashaka is now in Abeir.
Note that Naztharune rakshasa are, in rakshasa terms, crippled. They can't cast spells.
Nothing in the same rules prevents Naztharune rakshasa from taking spellcaster levels, but I'd consider that cheesy. A Naztharune rakshasa who casts spells isn't a Naztharune rakshasa, it's a noble rakshasa (i.e. the normal version) who just happens to look like their magically-crippled, commoner cousins.
The appearance of rakshasa is probably the least important part of them. What distinguishes these 'sub-races' are 1) powerful magic, innate link to death magic and negative energy (Ak'Chazar), 2) lack of spellcasting, with 2a) fighting skill (Zakya), 2b) innate magical tricks derived from blade magic linked to their shapeshifting (Naityan) and 2c) great stealth and minor link to shadow (Naztharune).
The appearance is of little concern. It DOES however very easily match up to the imagery of Kiga presented in Ruined Kingdoms (panther headed AND a goddess of hunting turned to goddess of murder).
So, as far as class levels go for said Rakshasa, I agree having them go wizard or sorcerer or cleric, etc... is a bad idea. However, having them go beguiler, spellthief, or arcane trickster (or in 5e, arcane trickster version of rogue), these all make perfect sense to me for this style of character. My personal favorite idea in this instance would be beguiler (the cloaked casting with the rakshasa's hide in plain sight are a great combo), but also maybe some levels in assassin or rogue. Then going arcane trickster. That being said, I'd be writing it up for 5e.
In Rakshasa society though, I wouldn't necessarily consider them cripples. Someone that can hide in plain sight and kill you by stabbing you in the back isn't a cripple. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 19:33:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, as far as class levels go for said Rakshasa, I agree having them go wizard or sorcerer or cleric, etc... is a bad idea. However, having them go beguiler, spellthief, or arcane trickster (or in 5e, arcane trickster version of rogue), these all make perfect sense to me for this style of character. My personal favorite idea in this instance would be beguiler (the cloaked casting with the rakshasa's hide in plain sight are a great combo), but also maybe some levels in assassin or rogue. Then going arcane trickster. That being said, I'd be writing it up for 5e.
I'd limit them to tricks, not spell effects. So, rogue with some arcane tricks is fine, but I would view a Naztharune Beguiler as 'cheating', i.e. that makes them the equivalent of 'normal' rakshasa, as to anyone within the setting, beguilers and sorcerers are just different variations of spellcasters. Flavour-wise, the lesser rakshasa, those who serve the 'normal' kind (as well as the Ak'Chazar and the rakshasa lords), are all distinguished by being unable to cast spells, but have some minor innate tricks.
That is what makes their castes inferor to true rakshasa and marks them as destined to serve, not rule.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
In Rakshasa society though, I wouldn't necessarily consider them cripples. Someone that can hide in plain sight and kill you by stabbing you in the back isn't a cripple.
Rakshasa disdain physical combat. The ability to do vulgar things that may occasionally be important doesn't make them respected in a caste-based society.
Think of the pecking order in an academic setting, like the faculty of a modern university. The fact that an illiterate gang member and felon from El Salvador is able and willing to kill the professors doesn't prevent them from thinking of him as lacking in most of the truly important attainments that make people worthy of respect. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 19:48:19
|
I think you're placing way too much emphasis on this on real world in regards to how rakshasa societies would work. There is nothing that says that Naztharune consider themselves lesser, nor that they won't seek to better their place in society. For that matter, many Rakshasa from what I've read in real world were known as skilled physical combatants. We even have an example of various types of Rakshasa rule over portions of a type of Cult in Eberron with the Lords of Dust.
But, its your game. Do as you see fit. I'm just throwing out options that may help you, and at the same time makes my own game interesting. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 21:05:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I think you're placing way too much emphasis on this on real world in regards to how rakshasa societies would work. There is nothing that says that Naztharune consider themselves lesser, nor that they won't seek to better their place in society. For that matter, many Rakshasa from what I've read in real world were known as skilled physical combatants. We even have an example of various types of Rakshasa rule over portions of a type of Cult in Eberron with the Lords of Dust.
But, its your game. Do as you see fit. I'm just throwing out options that may help you, and at the same time makes my own game interesting.
I'm basing this on the fact that rakshasa live in a strongly caste based societies. By definition, thus, higher castes look down on lower castes, and there really isn't much of a chance for the lower castes to better their place in society. At least, their social mobility is strictly proscribed by their inborn caste. They can become richer Naztharune, with a more reasonable master, but no matter what they do, they will remain Naztharune and thus inferior socially to the least successful true rakshasha they'll ever meet.
This isn't my interpretation, based on anything that I believe about real Indian cultures. It's simply what 'strongly caste-based society' means and rakshasa have been noted from their first appearance to have a strongly caste-based society.
Granted, newer D&D editions may not have mentioned anything about their societies, due to the lower percentage of wordcount devoted to things that weren't combat stats, but there was no note that these Lawful Evil fiends stopped having a society that was deeply unfair, but internally stable.
I agree that mythological rakshasa were sometimes skilled combatants, but it's a question of values. Seemingly, rakshasa society values purely physical prowess much less than intelligence, education, philosophical expertise, guile, erudition and many other things. Being a masterful leader, that rakshasha seem to value. A manipulative chess master of the mind. A politician, statesman, philosopher and thinker.
It would be entirely consistent with what is said about their culture for them to value strategy, generalship and even martial arts. It's just being so utterly without influence or authority that you must resort to personally engaging in violence with lesser beings that's shameful.
Clearly, all rakshasha are trained to arms, as all human nobles were in most ancient and medieval cultures. It may even be that, as in many Indian cultures, mastering the philosophy of martial arts and acting as a guru to teach deserving students the deepest mysteries of the art of combat is a proper pursuit for individuals of the highest caste. But philosopher kings don't brawl themselves, even if they know how. They remain above the fray, marshaling their forces and defeating the foe with their superior generalship.
About the only time when it would not be shameful for a rakshasa to enter into combat personally would be if the foe was truly worthy, i.e. of the same or superior caste. Rakshasa may feel more inclined to draw their swords if facing angels, demigods or other beings more important than humans or demihumans. After all, kings should only duel other kings. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 30 Jul 2018 21:06:51 |
|
|
|
Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 21:38:52
|
Actually Naztharune rakshasa are highly specialized and their lack of spellcasting is by design, a desired trait for their job.
Their natural talent at hiding and stalking prey (the pinnacle of which is hiding in plain sight, a much sought after ability for any stealthy PC) and the absence of any kind of magical aura coming from them defeats almost all means of detection any mortal spellcaster has, leaving only the senses (aka opposed skill-checks on the caster dump and cross-class skills), "active" countermeasures like glitterdust (which means you already got stabbed a few times, unless you spend your day casting glitterdust around) or "slow" and unwieldy detections like detect alignment that requires i) concentration ii) looking in the right direction iii) 3 rounds or detect thoughts that has a pitiful saving throw DC, has to bypass the naztharune spell resistance and still takes 3 rounds.
In a straight up fight an "out of the MM" Naztharune will easily beat any "out of the MM" regular rakshasa: the naztharune has way higher initiative, any spell used by the regular rakshasa is restricted to 4th or lower level and is a d20+7 against 21 SR, the naztharune (being an outsider) has pretty high saves (+11/+12/+7) while the DC for a regular rakshasa's spells is 13+level and on top of that the naztharune has improved evasion and can hide with about 60% chances of success all the time (due to the different boni on skills) and while the naztharune 6d6 SA dices will pierce through the DR 15 both have, the regular rakshasa has ... 1d4+1 claws and 1d6 bites ... . In other words, sneak attack, hide, sneak attack, hide, sneak attack, hide ... ad nauseam until the regular rakshasa drops dead (which is in like 5 rounds), and even in those rounds where the naztharune fails in hiding the regular rakshasa is pretty much powerless against him. Naztharune have even higher intelligence than common rakshasa so they perfectly know how dangerous can they be to their fellows.
You can start piling on levels on the regular one but you should do the same for the naztharune otherwise you'll not be comparing similar things.
I know you use different rules, but in my mind the first step to port something to different rulesets is understanding fully the ramifications and implications in the "native" ruleset. Naztharunes are feared assassins because the only sure way to beat them is to have listen/spot higher then their hide/move silently (+19 "out of the MM"), which is something only a few PC classes can obtain (remember class-skills and skill-points availability restrictions) and only around levels 13-15.
In the end, as noted in their entry, the naztharune could easily "make it difficult" for other rakshasas but they don't care about being the bosses, they just revel in the stalking and killing and as long as they are free to do that (or get paid or rewarded for that) they don't care for any kind of title. And that's good because the other rakshasa know perfectly well how dangerous they could be, thus they're respected specialists.
Even if you are a super powerful maharajah rakshasa you probably don't want your whole court, harem and servitors slaughtered by unseen assailants because *you* can easily boss around the naztharunes and decided to piss them off.
EDIT: I perfectly get what you are saying about castes but the problem here is that the regular rakshasas can't control the naztharune the way in human societies caste-systems were enforced: an armed uprising of peasants/slaves may be put down by the soldiery, an armed uprising of specialized otherwordly assassins is way beyond the control of any single maharajah rakshasa to handle. So I can perfectly see other rakshasas sneering at naztharunes lack of spellcasting when they are pretty sure the naztharune can't hear (which is difficult in itself) but I can't see that happening face to face or any regular rakshasa ordering the naztharunes about. |
Edited by - Demzer on 30 Jul 2018 21:49:30 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2018 : 22:59:25
|
It's true that Naztharune rakshasa are much more dangerous in personal combat than 'true' rakshasa, in much the same way that a Thracian or Sarmatian auxiliary in the Roman army is much more dangerous in personal combat than M. Tullius Cicero or Marcus Aurelius, or indeed most members of the Senatorial class. Or, well, a Sergeant First Class of the 1st SFOD-D/CAG/Delta Force is a lot more dangerous than a US Senator or President. Yet the more dangerous individuals are, rhetoric to the contrary, practically much less important to almost everyone in their societies, aside from immediate family and friends. Certainly the more dangerous individual makes infinitely less money, has much less authority or influence and has to follow the path that the more influential, less physically powerful people shape.
And Rome and the US were and are not any kind of strict caste-based systems. There is and was genuine social mobility in those societies. Even Rome was a lot more egalitarian than a genuine caste system.
To a great degree, I imagine that Naztharune rakshasa internalise the caste system. For one thing, Naztharune rakshasa are just as Lawful as other rakshasa. Like all societies, there will be exceptions and special snowflakes, but for the most part, if a Naztharune rakshasa got ideas above their station, other Naztharune rakshasa would be horrified and do their best to keep them in line, up to and including acting as security against rebellious murder attempts.
Another thing, the metaphysical justifications behind a caste system might be literally true. Zakya, Naityan and Naztharune rakshasa who respect dharma and their place in society might indeed be reborn into a higher caste, eventually. If so, almost no provocation would induce a rational lesser rakshasa to lash out at a superior caste, not unless he'd fancy life as something horrible, like a beast of burden, carrion bird or human.
Thirdly, the ability to fairly easily kill 'true' rakshasa doesn't imply an ability to improve their lot after the murder. Magic isn't just useful in combat, it's also very important to daily life in a fantasy world, unless you want life to be the kind of dull, resource-poor grind that real pre-Modern life was. A Naztharune rakshasa might enjoy a considerably more luxurious lifestyle as the pampered spy and assassin in service to a 'true' rakshasha tha he would making his way alone. Sure, they'd always be regarded as inferior, but a wise master takes good care of a useful tool.
Also, the average 'true' rakshasa might be less impressive than Naztharune rakshasa, but the one kind of rakshasa noble we've seen statted, the Ak'Chazar, are just as fast as the Naztharune, much more skilled in armed and unarmed combat and have senses that are so much sharper that they can realistically expect to deal with an attempt to sneak up on them. And they have some cool innate abilities cast at 20th level, not to mention being 12th level Sorcerers.
Rakshasa knights, rajahs and maharajahs are not statted anywhere that I know of in D&D 3e/3.5, but I'm assuming that they are around the power range of the Ak'Chazar, with knights being technically a lower caste the other nobles (but better in combat than any lesser rakshasa), the rajahs truly impressive and the maharajahs just below demigods.
So while a Naztharune rakshasa might theoretically be able to murder the least powerful of true rakshasa (CR 11 vs. CR 10), that doesn't mean they can fight the real powers in rakshasa society (CR 11 vs. CR 15+). |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 30 Jul 2018 23:00:32 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Rakshasa in the Realms
